Some off topic posts that need separate thread

[MastanKhan]

I hope you know the difference between a rock band's music sales and military/weapon sale. Having enough money in pocket in one moment never ensure a big purchase, long term operating costs play more vital role in any such deal. The aircraft you have listed are no-way "Cheap", all of these have very high operating costs as compare to JF-17.



That is what you think, what military analyst think is other way round.

You think that "numbers" is the top priority for PAF, guess what it never was in the past and it will never be in future. If there had been any such case China would be producing JF-17s for us as well.

You, just like the author hasn't produced anything that puts JF-17's design in obsolete aircraft category. I wonder, what exactly is obsolete? Weapons it carry, avionics, EW suite...please enlighten us?

Hi,

Amazing posts at times---unbelievable how you kids think----it is so shocking to see you people have no learning abilities and have a very difficult being analytical about your equipment.

In real life---when you want to protect your household from highway robbers ( dacoits ) you buy the klashikov---regardless of the exorbitant price that you pay on the black market.

When facing a massive strike force with the likes of indian air force----operating cost is the least of the issue---. Parity against the enemy's weapons system is the most important issue.

For thousands of years of warfare history---nations which have been at war---or wanted to be at war---each one of the successful ones wanted to outdo the other in man, machine, equipment, preparedness----with ruthless force---with brutal force---with massive overwhelming force---.

Second world war showed that extremely superior weaponery can be overwhelmed by a massive number of above average weaponery---like german tanks against the american tanks----but then the 1st gulf war showed---the extremely superior and 'intelligent' weaponery and bigger numbers can take out average weaponery 99.999% of the times with success.

The 2nd gulf war re-assured the fact that the superior technology that can hit targets from a farther distance will always succeed over lesser technologies that can hit targets at shorter distances---and it also re-assured the fact----that those with better technology and with higher numbers will still overcome their less fortunate opponents.

Cost of ownership is just one of the MINOR factors and NOT 'THE' FACTOR. People who make it as such are only fooling themselves in the make belief.

A massive expense account that of the indian millitary---has not stopped the indian air force to ground their very expensive aircraft---and neither will it stop the iaf of making any strikes----as the war is going to be started by india----at the time of india's chosing---they will make sure---all their air assets are operable.

Now---as for the the secrecy that the pak air force has on the jf17 program---I told you people before, one time---I made them put a lid on it---a couple of years ago. You won't get any real operational information leaked of this aircraft---only speculative or whatever paf wants to release.

Paf had always been secretive with all its systems prior to the jf17---it just got carried away for awhile and lots of un-neccessary information was released---the age of technology blind sided paf for a while---kids with internet on their fingertips asking too many questions of their dads and uncles who were still living in the paper newspaper age---and then those kids coming over here and spilling information to look important.


== mod edit:
Sorry MK.. I think the points you raised deserve an exclusive thread so that we can learn a thing or two from you


PS: the tile is phrased by Me.. I hope its not offensive to anyone

 

[Viper0011.]

Hi,

Amazing posts at times---unbelievable how you kids think----it is so shocking to see you people have no learning abilities and have a very difficult being analytical about your equipment.

Cost of ownership is just one of the MINOR factors and NOT 'THE' FACTOR. People who make it as such are only fooling themselves in the make belief.

I agree with your first assertion about the cost of ownership, technology's impact in winning wars and size. I do agree, the PAF needs numbers. BUT, numbers when JFT has matured up and has more stealth features, AESA (next gen technologies basically). I think what you are seeing fro JFT is a stop gap. So PAF's assessment is to keep a 2:1 (from 3:1) ratio for IAFAF. There's nothing that they can do due to the sheer size of both the countries and the economy (ground realities).

If I was in PAF's high command, my focus would be JFT BII or BIII needs to be close to F-16 B-60 with Stealth capability. Large number of stealth introduces another paradigm shift. The 3:1 or 2:1 ratio all of a sudden becomes useless....Think about it...3:1 or 2:1....who do you count as the party of "1" as you can't see that "1" coming against your 2 or 3 jets (unless it's in your face about to just hit you with guns or AIM-XX due to the close proximity). So if 6 Su-30's are being intercepted by two F-16 (for example) and a Stealth JFT B III...... is it truly a 2:1 ratio? The JFT with stealth will have a field day as it won't be detected, unless it is in close visual proximity which it doesn't need to be. It can stay out of human eye but have more control over the situation and being able to lock onto two - four Su-30's simultaneously. Having 4-6 missiles is more than enough for this situation on the Stealth plane.

I saw an F-22 and then an F-35 with two F-16's around LM's facility in Ft. Worth. The size of these things is twice or more that of F-16's BUT....what you can't see on the screen...you can't see, whether its coming to kiss you, hurt you or simply fly by you.
So to overcome the numbers issue....stealth is a must and in numbers in platform that cheaper to produce. You may not have 200 of planes with 50% of F-22 capability. But you CAN have 200 JFT BII or BIII's with stealth. Then, these same planes turn into force multiplier and no attacking formation will know what to expect.

 

[MastanKhan]

Here young men---I keep telling you people to read---read history----



She prepared two cups of tea, and offered one cup to the Senator, and another to an American guard who was standing at the gate. On returning, she came back, continued talking with the Senator. After a discussion they settled the arms deal. In the meantime, she stood up, collected all the cups, and turned to senator and said "I agree to this deal. You can send your secretary to my secretary for written deal".

It may be remembered that Israel at that time was facing a serious economic crisis, but the huge arms deal was settled by Meir with the greatest of ease in the history of Israel. It was quite astonishing that earlier, the Israeli cabinet had rejected the same deal, because they thought it would be so costly, that the whole nation would have to make do with a single meal a day, for years to come.

Meir knew about their stand, and said, "Your doubt are well founded, but if we win this war, and defeat the Arabs, history will remember us as the victors, and in history, once a community is know as the victor, it forgets how many eggs they ate and how many times they had food. Whether there was jam, honey, butter on the table, and how many holes they had in their shoes. Or whether the sheaths of their swords were new or old! A conqueror is a conqueror."

Based on Meir's solid logic, the Israeli cabinet approved the deal. Later it was proved that the decision taken by Meir was right, and the whole world witnessed the Jews knocking on the doors of the Arabs with this artillery. A war took place, and the Arabs faced a shameful defeat at the hands of an old lady.

After a gap of one decade after the war, a reporter of the Washington Post interviewed Meir, asking "Was the logic you had in your mind for the arms was spur of the moment decision or you had had an advance strategy?"

Meir's reply was very surprising.

She answered, "I got this logic from the prophet (of the Muslims) Mohammed (peace be upon him). When I was a student, my favorite topic was comparative study of religions. Those days I studied the life of Mohammed (PBUH). One author stated that when Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) died, there was not enough money to buy oil for a lamp, his wife (Ayesha Siddiqua[Raziallah-u-ta'ala unha]) mortgaged his battle shield to buy oil, yet there were nine swords hung on the wall of his house.

When I read this account, it occurred to me- how many people in the world would have known about the worst economic condition of Islamic state? But everyone recognizes them as conquerors of half the world. So I decided that I would buy arms at any cost; even if we would have to starve or to live in camps instead of buildings, but we would prove ourselves as the victor".

Meir revealed this secret, but requested the interviewer to keep it "off the record", and refrain from publishing it, because if she referred to Prophet Mohammed(P.B.U.H), the Jews would have revolted against her and the Muslim position would have strengthened.

Over the time, world situation changed. Golda Meir died. By this time the interviewer had given up the profession of journalism. Meanwhile another correspondent was busy interviewing 20 famous American journalists. In connection with this, he met the journalist who had interviewed Meir as a representative of the Washington Post.In this interview, he recounted the story of Meir that drew on the life of Prophet Mohammed (PBUH).

He said he was not ashamed to tell the story. Further, he said, "After this incident I studied the history of Islam, and was astonished to know about the savoir-faire of Arabs. Because I learnt that Tariq bin Ziyad conquered Spain through Gibraltar, while more than half his army did not have complete suit of clothes. They subsisted for 72 hours at time on water and dried bread.

It was then that the interviewer agreed with Meir's view that history counts victory; it does not count the eggs, jams and butter on the table."When the interview with Meir was published, the whole world learned of this entire story.This astonishing incident is history's wake-up call to the Muslims of the world. It teaches them a lesson; it reveals how 14 centuries ago, a shepherd, clad in a cloak and worn-out shoes became the leader of the world, and conquered four continents.

Could enormous castles, grand palaces, magnificent gardens, splendid clothes, adorned rest places of silk and sleepless, gold silver, boxes, gems and jewels, spread of savory dishes and the jingle of coins save them? The locust-swarm of Tartar forces did not reach the palace of Musta'sim Billah by trampling over Baghdad. What a terrible and astonishing scene it was in the history of Islam, when Musta'sim Billah was bound in chains, standing like a prisoner before Halaku Khan (grandson of Changiz Khan). And at mealtime, Halaku Khan ate in simple plates, but offered plates of gems and precious metals to Caliph Musta'sim Billah, mocking "Eat from these diamonds, gems, gold and precious metals you have collected!" There stood the Sovereign of Baghdad, helplessness, powerless, lonely, destitute, saying, "How can I eat gold?" Halaku Khan replied, "Then why you have collected all this silver and gold?"

The Muslim, whose religion calls on him to make arms and rear horses, had no reply. Halaku Khan glanced at the palace doors and windows, asking, "Why did you not make iron arrows by melting these iron nets? Why did you collect these diamonds instead of paying money to your soldiers, so they could fight bravely against my forces?""It was the will of Allah", replied the grieved Caliph.

The arrogant Halaku shot back, "Whatever is now going to happen with you is also God's wish".
Then Halaku covered Musta'sim Billah in a cloak and crushed him under the hooves of horses, and proceeded to make a graveyard of Baghdad.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...rned-prophet-muhammad-pbuh.html#ixzz206S3uUvx

 

[MastanKhan]

Pakistan developing nuclear weapons can also be related to this. The Nation suffered alot but then we have people who would disagree to this as well.
On the other hand the Russian economy collapsed due to the weapons race with the US and that we cannot relate to the above.

The point i am trying to make here is that its not the weapon system that will make us win the war but being united. The Israeli nation is united and so were the Muslims under Prophet (PBUH) but can you say the same today about Pakistani nation?
We as a Nation are not united and even the F-22s cannot help us win the war if we are not united with a single agenda as a nation.

Hi,

Superior weaponery made israel win their major wars in the 60's and 70's----. They had more superior aircraft just by themseleves than all the air craft of the arab fighting nations put together and same with the tanks---.

The israeli phantoms could fly around for 3 1/2 hours---whereas the egyptian mig 21 could only be in the air for 1/2 an hour---just an example.

Indeed the israelis had unity at time of war---. When you have 20 times larger enemy ready to jump on you and want to take you out---any sane group of nationals will form some kind of united front---. But the israelis did not stick together with their unity only----they made saner decisions at critical junctures---. All their weapons systems were superior or equally potent as compared to their enemy's systems. They also procured them in larger numbers---. They had men---who's actions---against all odds and commands from the GHQ would change the face and shape the history in the middle east.

 

[SBD-3]

Hi,

Superior weaponery made israel win their major wars in the 60's and 70's----. They had more superior aircraft just by themseleves than all the air craft of the arab fighting nations put together and same with the tanks---.

The israeli phantoms could fly around for 3 1/2 hours---whereas the egyptian mig 21 could only be in the air for 1/2 an hour---just an example.

Indeed the israelis had unity at time of war---. When you have 20 times larger enemy ready to jump on you and want to take you out---any sane group of nationals will form some kind of united front---. But the israelis did not stick together with their unity only----they made saner decisions at critical junctures---. All their weapons systems were superior or equally potent as compared to their enemy's systems. They also procured them in larger numbers---. They had men---who's actions---against all odds and commands from the GHQ would change the face and shape the history in the middle east.

Israelis actually made their platforms more lethal than they were delivered. For example when Mirage III was delivered to IAF, its gunsite had severe calibration issues. In fact one of Israeli pilot lost his life while working on radar to fix these issues, the sacrifice yielded two callibration switches (one for short range and both for long range). Then Israeli pilots trained and trained and got perfect. The result was the emergence of Mirage III as superstar in Arial combat. Israelis made a plane, made for strategic bomber interception- a global star. This was only a part of it, not to mention the part that shafreer II WWRAM played for Israelis.

 

[MastanKhan]

Oldman, my post which you replied was in response to the post by SHIELD.


I hope you know the difference between a rock band's music sales and military/weapon sale. Having enough money in pocket in one moment never ensure a big purchase, long term operating costs play more vital role in any such deal. The aircraft you have listed are no-way "Cheap", all of these have very high operating costs as compare to JF-17.

---------------
Coming back to your theory about buying weapon systems. Its both correct and incorrect at the same time, It holds true if you are talking about a small group of people fighting against a bigger group but if you are talking about a country investing maximum of its defence budget only to make a lethal weapon operational for a long period of time…that’s where it becomes false (especially when you consider Pakistan as your case).

Please keep your knowledge and experience about other military aside, lets see how this theory holds on Pakistan (because this is what we were discussing).

Why was F-104 grounded in just 9 years of service? It was a lethal fighting machine…supersonic air superiority fighter of its time. But keeping bunch of F-104 operational was not a cost-worthy solution for Pakistan. Air superiority comes with both quality and quantity, in both case you need a bid budget to run things.

To sum it all up, long term operating cost have always been one of the main reasons why PAF never went further in Rafale, Eurofighter or Mirage-2000 deal.

Hi,

Thank you for your comments---F104 was never a potent aircraft----it is considered to be one of the biggest useless blunders of millitary aviation. It had no use or purpose---it's supersonic speed was just for show.

Pakistan does not live in 'ether' young man---you don't become a doctor to cure your family---you do that to serve---you don't become an accountant to keep the books of your average household in order----. You procure weapons systems to counter what the enemy has. ( the Heer cannot become the Ranjha by itself.)

What did my country do to deserve men like these who shamelessly flaunt their ignorance.

These same aircraft that pak rejected out of ignorance---the enemy picked them up.

You fools----major weapons system purchases are not to fight the wars with---but to make peace to bring the enemy to the peace table---it is like a pre-emptive strike----you calculate the cost of prevention as to the cost of losses suffered otherwise---.

ie in 2002 when the sanctions came off and you had gone ahead and spent 5 billion dollars on high tech aircraft---india would have signed the peace deal---now with your screw ups---you have lost close to 100 billion dollars---even after the earthquake---if pak had gone ahead with the purchase of F16's----india would have unfolded the peace table.

Now you are broke for the upteenth time---and your 'sob story' starts all over----'pakistan don't have the money'.

What you people have done to the country in the last 10 years---why did my motherland deserve this misery and disgrace.

 

[SQ8]

What you people have done to the country in the last 10 years---why did my motherland deserve this misery and disgrace.

You say it like you were sending back billions of dollars and the rest of us were buying Maybach's and Veyrons with it.

If you could have done the same for the motherland in your time, it would make sense señor..
Decrying "us" wont put weight in your sympathies.
"us" works till late night programming C4I systems..
"us" has to find loopholes to get instrumentation equipment through international customs.
"us" has to reverse engineer parts so that when sanctions hit, we arent left stranded again.

"us" is busy doing their part.
Please spare us from your tirade.

 

[MastanKhan]

You say it like you were sending back billions of dollars and the rest of us were buying Maybach's and Veyrons with it.

If you could have done the same for the motherland in your time, it would make sense señor..
Decrying "us" wont put weight in your sympathies.
"us" works till late night programming C4I systems..
"us" has to find loopholes to get instrumentation equipment through international customs.
"us" has to reverse engineer parts so that when sanctions hit, we arent left stranded again.

"us" is busy doing their part.
Please spare us from your tirade.

Young fools---trying to plug the holes in the dykes with their fingers----thinking things will be alright----.

Living in an illusion that as you can sneak behind the back----you are not visible----that sneaking behind the back is only for as long as they look the other way.

An intelligent answer would have been---" I found a way so that we will not be faced with sanctions ". ----these miniscule systems, representing of death and destruction they are dellusional in form and function---.

 

[SBD-3]

Young fools---trying to plug the holes in the dykes with their fingers----thinking things will be alright----.

Living in an illusion that as you can sneak behind the back----you are not visible----that sneaking behind the back is only for as long as they look the other way.

An intelligent answer would have been---" I found a way so that we will not be faced with sanctions ". ----these miniscule systems, representing of death and destruction they are dellusional in form and function---.

Mastan Sahib, he is correct in a way. The generation II (1950s-1970s) of Pakisan hasn't done much that it can be proud of. While the Pakistanis abroad has helped the country financially through remittences etc, Pakistan mostly remained deprived of the talents of these individuals. Much can be balmed on both side (red tapisim etc) but the fact is that neither of two hands has been more willing to make a clap than the other.

 

[SQ8]

Young fools---trying to plug the holes in the dykes with their fingers----thinking things will be alright----.

Living in an illusion that as you can sneak behind the back----you are not visible----that sneaking behind the back is only for as long as they look the other way.

An intelligent answer would have been---" I found a way so that we will not be faced with sanctions ". ----these miniscule systems, representing of death and destruction they are dellusional in form and function---.

At least these young fools did something , while the older fools ran off to the US to fend for themselves without contributing jack to the nation.

 

[Windjammer]

@ MK, ever experienced sitting in the front passenger seat of a car, feeling the driver next to you is a bit reckless, every time he presses the gas, you sink further in your seat, and when he applies the foot brake close behind the vehicle in front, you clinch your legs even tighter......but damn, the driver himself feels and looks so relaxed and confident.....since he knows what's he doing and it's in his control......more to the point, you can't or rather don't judge the depth by sitting on the River bank.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

At least these young fools did something , while the older fools ran off to the US to fend for themselves without contributing jack to the nation.

-1 point for you
that was below the belt remark. some old fools put their lives on the line and brought the know how back in the motherland and passed it on to the young fools to show something.

 

[indushek]

Young fools---trying to plug the holes in the dykes with their fingers----thinking things will be alright----.

Living in an illusion that as you can sneak behind the back----you are not visible----that sneaking behind the back is only for as long as they look the other way.

An intelligent answer would have been---" I found a way so that we will not be faced with sanctions ". ----these miniscule systems, representing of death and destruction they are dellusional in form and function---.

Sir why do u have to pass such comments, its common in third world nations like India and others to loose the cream to West as they don't get paid in their motherland much. In this case one cannot decry anybody on either side, those who leave sure project the potential of their motherland and those who cannot (may be not because they aren't clever enough but chose to stay or the mediocre's too) have to put up with obstacles at every corner.

 

[Desi Guy]

-1 point for you
that was below the belt remark. some old fools put their lives on the line and brought the know how back in the motherland and passed it on to the young fools to show something.

I guess AQ Khan was one such old fool ....
if it wasn't for him ...we would be seeing ten different divided countries instead of Pakistan....... some occupied by Yankees and some by Indians...

 

[DANGER-ZONE]

One thing to say ....
THIS IS GOING TO BE A BS THREAD.
& will be deleted soon.