Some disscussion between me & Kasmiri guys(ex friends now I guess)

[Agnostic_Indian]

He would be hard pressed to name a single Pakistani Hindu / Sikh / Christian PDF member even - because they don't exist and that is pretty strange.

don't give them ideas, soon there will be a new pak Hindu member.

 

[Paan Singh]

I think you have already lost the argument when you start naming individuals as opposed to talking about the community at large. There are over 200 million Muslims in India ( Most Indian Muslimns will tell you how the Indian govt. undercounts Indian Muslims in census ) and you cannot quote few Bollywood types to prove a point. The fact is that as an group the 200 million Indian Muslims are at the bottom of Indian Population. Read the Sachar Committee Report because I do not want to reprint the whole report here. It explains the plight of Indian Muslims state by state and sector by sector.



Sachar Committee Report - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




The Pakistani Hindus on the other hand are at the highest level of prosperity on a per capita basis.

Muslims in india are self responsible for their condition.They will prefer to send their wards to madrassa but not in schools.
I myself have seen as my father belongs to village where 90% are muslims.

 

[liontk]

You dont seem to know the history of India-Pakistan or the events that transpired in 1947. Oh and that 2% figure is not out of all Indan population, but of the Kashmiri population itself. Only 2% of Kashmiris want to join Pakistan. If its extrapolated to indian population it would be 0.00001% or something.

As for Indienne Army having blood on their hands I would quote Golda Meir - “When peace comes we will perhaps in time be able to forgive the Arabs for killing our sons, but it will be harder for us to forgive them for having forced us to kill their sons.”



Read India-Pakistan history, Partition, the migrations & massacres. Without that background knowledge you are just wasting people's time here.

"Cause of Dispute: In 1846, the British colonial rulers of India sold the territory, including its populace (by a sale deed called the Treaty of Amritsar, in return for a sum of money) to a Hindu warlod who had no roots there. This warlord who bought himself into royalty, styled himself as the Maharajah of Jammu and Kashmir. The acts of brutality during his regime have left bitter memories, some of which persist to this present day. Several mosques were closed and occupied by his forces. The slaughtering of a cow was declared a crime punishable by death. Between 1925 and 1947 Maharajah Hari Singh continued this policy of discrimination against the 94 percent Muslim majority. It was nearly 65 years ago, in 1931, that the people of Kashmir made their first organised protest against Maharajah Hari Singh's cruelty. That led to the "Quit Kashmir" campaign against the Maharajah in 1946, and eventually to the Azad Kashmir movement which gained momentum a year later.
The first armed encounter between the Maharajah's troops and insurgent forces occurred in August 1947. At this time, Britain was liquidating its empire in the subcontinent. Faced with a insurgency of his people, strengthened by a few hundred civilian volunteers from Pakistan, Maharajah fled to Jammu on 25th October 1947. In Jammu, after he ascertained a commitment of military assistance from the government of India to crush the impending revolution in Kashmir, he signed the "Instrument of Accession" to India.
Lord Mountbatten conditionally accepted the "Instrument of Accession" on behalf of the British Crown, and furthermore, outlined the conditions for official acceptance in a letter dated 27th October 1947:
"In consistence with their policy that in the case of any (native) state where the issue of accession has been subject of dispute, the question of accession should be decided in accordance with the wishes of the people of the state, it is my government's wish that as soon as law and order have been restored in Kashmir and her soil cleared of the invaders the question of state's accession should be settled by a reference to the people."
Then Indian Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru, in a speech aired on All*India Radio (2nd November 1947), reaffirmed the Indian Government's commitment to the right of the Kashmiri people to determine their own future through a plebiscite:
"We have declared that the fate of Kashmir is ultimately to be decided by the people. That pledge we have given, and the Maharajah has supported it, not only to the people of Jammu and Kashmir, but also to the world. We will not and cannot back out of it. We are prepared when peace and law have been established to have a referendum held under international auspices like the United Nations. We want it to be a fair and just reference to the people and we shall accept their verdict."
The Government of India accepted the "Instrument of accession" conditionally, promising the people of the state and the world at large that "accession" would be final only after the wishes of the people of the state were ascertained upon return of normalcy in the state.
Following this, India moved her forces into Srinagar and a drawn*out fight ensued between Indian forces and the forces of liberation. The forces of Azad Kashmir successfully resisted India's armed intervention and liberated one*third of the State. Realising it could not quell the resistance, India brought the issue to the United Nations Security Council in January 1948. As the rebel forces had undoubtedly been joined by volunteers from Pakistan, India charged Pakistan with having sent "armed raiders" into the state, and demanded that Pakistan be declared an aggressor in Kashmir. Furthermore, India demanded that Pakistan stop aiding freedom fighters, and allowing the transit of tribesmen into the state.
After acceptance of these demands, coupled with the assurance that all "raiders" were withdrawn, India would enable a plebiscite to be held under impartial auspices to decide Kashmir's future status. In reply, Pakistan charged India with having manoeuvred the Maharajah's accession through "fraud and violence" and with collusion with a "discredited" ruler in the repression of his people. Pakistan's counter complaint was also coupled with the proposal of a plebiscite under the supervision and control of the United Nations to settle the dispute.
The Security Council exhaustively discussed the question from January until April of 1948. It came to the conclusion that it would be impossible to determine responsibility for the fighting and futile to blame either side. Since both parties desired that the question of accession should be decided through an impartial plebiscite, the Council developed proposals based on the common ground between them. These were embodied in the resolution of 21st April 1948, envisaging a cease*fire, the withdrawal of all outside forces from the State, and a plebiscite under the control of an administrator who would be nominated by the Secretary General. For negotiating the details of the plan, the Council constituted a five*member commission known as "United Nations Commission for India and Pakistan" (UNCIP) to implement the resolution.
After the cease*fire, India began efforts to drag the issue down, and under various pretexts tried to stop the UN resolution from being implemented. To this day, India pursues the same plan, and the resolution of 1948 has yet to be realised.
India and Pakistan were at war over Kashmir from 1947*48 and all early U. N. Security Council Resolutions contained admonishment for both countries demanding an immediate case*fire, which would be followed by a-UN directed Plebiscite. However, disregarding that some fifteen resolutions were passed by the United Nations to this very effect, India and Pakistan again initiated military skirmish in 1965. At this point, another cease*fire agreement was effected after United Nations intervention, followed by an agreement at Tashkent with the good offices of the USSR.
In 1971, India and Pakistan once again became locked in war. Efforts to bring the latest conflict to an end resulted in the Simla Agreement and was signed by both India and Pakistan and declared commitment to reach a "final settlement" on the Kashmir issue, but this has yet to happen."

Source Candienne Kashimir council website.
http://www.kashmiri-cc.ca/
I think I will put my money on the kashmiri canadian council and based on the information from their website coupled with book Jinah's biographie, I think i have the basic knowledge and this is not to add that my gramps and some members of familie moved to pakistan/uganda. As far as kashmiri goes, first they were opressed in there own state by a facist religious regime that imposed laws like a ban against cow slaughter in a majority muslim faith region. I am not going to get into the nitty gritty because discussing the past is not going to bring the innocents back from either sides. Its better to focus on a settlement then petty pride emerging from the opportunity cost associated with last 60 years and that goes for pakistan too, as they should not manipulate dirty laundry of inde but rather let UN deal with it.

 

[Pakistanisage]

Muslims in india are self responsible for their condition.They will prefer to send their wards to madrassa but not in schools.
I myself have seen as my father belongs to village where 90% are muslims.

When all else fails, blame the VICTIM. Classic Strategy.

 

[Contrarian]

Simple reason. The Muslim middle class entirely migrated out of India during partition. The elite muslims and peasant muslims were left behind. The elite muslims have deliberately not let the muslim community prosper or get educated, for they would lose their vote banks. They have kept the muslims focused on islam and madrassa's and on non issues deliberately while their own children studied in the most elite schools of India and abroad.

However sustained economic changes in India since 1990's have made an impact on the muslim social fabric as well. While they have been left out of the economic boom simply because they were not educated enough to grasp it, today there is indeed a rising muslim middle class.

And while this middle class is currently small as a percentage of the total muslim population in India, it is growing rapidly. In about another 10 years you would find a major difference with respect to the economic position of muslims in India.

There is a major reason why among all the minorities, Muslims have low economic mobilization, very low literacy, while Christians, Sikhs and Jains - ALL have social indicators - literacy, employement, etc that are above the avg Hindu social indicators.

 

[liontk]

@ to pakistani and indienne members, stop discussing about minorities/citizens of your side, this thread is about the disputed territorie of kashmir and based on the information the author provided from the context of his conversation, the rational minds in kashmiri side are dwindling and as outside observers, we should discuss the possibilities of a settlement and ease the plight of kashmiris that have lost so much of their significant loved ones in the last 60 years.

 

[KS]

Source Candienne Kashimir council website.
The Kashmiri-Canadian Council Home Page

Now here, hear the other side of the story

Kashmir Information Network (KIN): A Paradise Turned into Hell

http://www.kashmir-information.com/index.html

I think I will put my money on the Kashmiri Pandit information.

When all else fails, blame the VICTIM. Classic Strategy.

Like Jinnah blamed hindus pre-partition

 

[angeldude13]

Good point monsieur Krait but there has been too much violence and strife on both sides, there has to be an immediate settlement and stop to violence, just look at what armstrong family has had to go through. Its always the innocents that suffer from this and in the case of afzal guru case, 7 security officials family are now missing their loved ones due to some politicians pride to make kashmir an integral part of their countries and this goes for some pakistani politicians too.

WhAt do you want to say Canadian?
First stop killing innocent kids in afghanistan and tribal pakistan then you can enlighten US with your Canadian peacee thing.
Until you do something about Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan please don't interfere in indias internal matters.

 

[liontk]

Now here, hear the other side of the story

Kashmir Information Network (KIN): A Paradise Turned into Hell

I think I will put my money on the Kashmiri Pandit information.





Like Jinnah blamed hindus pre-partition

Kashmiri pandit communitie consitutes only 4-5% and since kashmir was in indienne hand , inde should be responsible for whatever the criminal acts were committed. Remember the arguement works both ways, you occupy an integral territorie then you deal with the response. While the response of the majoritie kashmiri population was radical, it is understandable though in time of occupation people revert to infringe right wing groups. However I will still put my words on a communitie that constitutes 95% of kashmir and that is not to say the voices of 4% do not count, however the brutality of dogra rule does instill some form on intolerance on local population.

 

[Pakistanisage]

Now here, hear the other side of the story

Kashmir Information Network (KIN): A Paradise Turned into Hell

Kashmir Information Network (KIN): A Paradise Turned into Hell

I think I will put my money on the Kashmiri Pandit information.





Like Jinnah blamed hindus pre-partition

Are you Implying Hindus were victims ?

When were Hindus ever a victim in pre-partition days ?

 

[KRAIT]

@liontk Well sorry to say but this terrorism in Kashmir was overlooked by your nation and rest of the Western nations. If they would have asked Pakistan not to send those terrorists in Kashmir, asked them to get rid of terrorist camps and parties who collected funds for Kashmir insurgency in open market, these lives could have been spared.

These same terrorists attacked Americans and other western nations. LeT, JeM etc. all are similar like Al-Qaeda, Taliban.

Kashmir issue will be solved. But bilaterally. No third party will be allowed. We can't trust West especially which supports nations who give refuge to Terrorists just because they want those nations for their own national interest.

You can still sanction Pakistan to get rid of all anti-India terrorists in Pakistan and hand over, arrest or kill the wanted terrorists to India.

I will see how much West care about Kashmiris. Ask Pakistan to get rid of terrorist sanctuaries in Pakistan. Then come to us.

 

[KS]

Kashmiri pandit communitie consitutes only 4-5% and since kashmir was in indienne hand , inde should be responsible for whatever the criminal acts were committed.

Yes we were responsible and that is why we kicked the *** of those responsible so hard that they are crying till now.

Remember the arguement works both ways, you occupy an integral territorie then you deal with the response.

There is no question of 'occupation'. India occupies Kashmir as much as Canadian whites occupy indigenous Indian lands - which is actually the whole of Canada. So there is more chance of the canadian whites moving to Britain, France or wherever they came from than India moving out of Kashmir.

While the response of the majoritie kashmiri population was radical, it is understandable though in time of occupation people revert to infringe right wing groups. However I will still put my words on a communitie that constitutes 95% of kashmir and that is not to say the voices of 4% do not count, however the brutality of dogra rule does instill some form on intolerance on local population.

Muslims/Islam did not appear in Kashmir first. As I said millions of Bihari, Bengalis, Punjabis, Sindhis moved to India or Pakistan in 1947 depending on their religion. So if the Kashmiri muslims dont like it in India they can always do what the Bihari, Bengalis, Punjabis, Sindhis did and can move to Pakistan.

And just in case you did not know - the state of Jammu and Kashmir is comprised of three regions - Jammu, Kashmir and Ladakh. Only Kashmir has the nuisance value and the rest are pro-India.

 

[liontk]

WhAt do you want to say Canadian?
First stop killing innocent kids in afghanistan and tribal pakistan then you can enlighten US with your Canadian peacee thing.
Until you do something about Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan please don't interfere in indias internal matters.

Stop living in a glasshouse, canada withdrew from the mission in 2011 based on the lack of sucess we had in afghanistan, We did do our nation building as well as spread and instill canadian values, however our true goal was to get al-quieda and we accomplished our goal, as well , our canadienne soldiers did not commit UN HR violation and our record has been cleaned to certain extent. Were we this evil, we would not spend our hard earned tax dollars through NGOs in northwestern inde in contraceptive care and orphanages in particular Sikkum. Also we do not expect a thank you from either your government nor anyone else including ghania,mozambique. Stop blaming west for your mistakes and lets solve the problem together and canada has had a major role as a neutral arbitrator especially in kashmir issue.

http://www.acdi-cida.gc.ca/acdi-cida/acdi-cida.nsf/eng/FRA-118123034-NJP

 

[KRAIT]

I laugh when Western nations talk about Human Rights and Preach Peace.

Practice what you Preach, West. India and Pakistan are still much better than West. We don't go around and kill millions for Oil. We don't support dictators like Saddam. We don't sanction Iran just because you want peace while Israel has so many nukes and no one targets that.

India and Pakistan may be enemies, but at the end of the day, we both belong to region of Civilization which started when you didn't know anything about Society.

To avenge death of 3000 Americans, you killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan too. This situation could have been avoided if you didn't turn a blind eye on Terrorism and Inhumane Dictators.

I laugh when Western nations talk about Human Rights and Preach Peace.

Practice what you Preach, West. India and Pakistan are still much better than West. We don't go around and kill millions for Oil. We don't support dictators like Saddam. We don't sanction Iran just because you want peace while Israel has so many nukes and no one targets that.

India and Pakistan may be enemies, but at the end of the day, we both belong to region of Civilization which started when you didn't know anything about Society.

To avenge death of 3000 Americans, you killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan too. This situation could have been avoided if you didn't turn a blind eye on Terrorism and Inhumane Dictators.

 

[INDIC]

Yes we were responsible and that is why we kicked the *** of those responsible so hard that they are crying till now.

@KRAIT Lionk has Pakistani ancestry, you guys are wasting your time on him.