Social Acceptability of the Talib & the Talib Ideology !

[rubyjackass]

I think Pakistanis have been kept in a bubble for too long, protected by constructed and alternative histories. The propaganda fed is so dense - there probably was no chance to examine the faults or mistakes committed in history, because they were told they have always been right and righteous and the only reason for their fate is some evil conspiracy.
Whenever they are faced with facts contradicting their fed history, they simply refuse to believe them. They would rather call the facts as a conspiracy. May be it became a habit now. No one is ready to accept that he/she or his people did something bad like a suicide bombing.

 

[Sugarcane]

1. Our systems are carefully designed in a way to ensure that feudal, sardar, gangsters, corrupts are in power and their interests are secure.

2. Our rulers (Military or Civil) filled their pockets and didn't cared to bring the people into main stream by providing development, education and economic opportunities.

3. We haven't done anything to monitor & regulate the Mullahs, Infect rulers used them for their personal gains and know it is out of control.

4. Army operations was left the only option and it resulted in displacement of people, their business, homes destroyed and people who were famous for values, self-respect, hospitality was forced to live in refuge camps. People lost their relatives during operation.

5. After operation - State haven't done very little for their rehabilitation, they still get terror attacks, nothing on economics side.

So, People who have soft corner for Talibans have belief that although Talibs were not good but still their lives were more secure as compare to know and they were able to feed their families. IMHO - We are not going anywhere unless we scrap our constitution and prepare a new one which ensure swift justice for all where none is immune (There is reason why it's said that One moment of Justice is better than worship of 1000s year) and a constitution which ensure that power remains in hands of people, where none who don't have full stack in country can hold any public office, where people shouldn't be left with option that choose one who is less evil. Re-structure our civil institutes with transparent code of conduct to ensure merits, kick out old a$$es when they couldn't do any better in 65 years they will not do any good in future as well and give the posts to individuals on merits. We can keep military out only when our civil insinuations are strong and our civilian govt. have support of people. Otherwise history will keep repeating and people will keep distributing sweets on every coupe and on every fall of dictator. Mango man will suffer and Politicians & Dictators will keep filling their piggy banks.

 

[Armstrong]

Those romanticized notions of the Taleban and their leaders are born of a desire to see the present system brought down. Since they cannot bring it down themselves, the people would like to think of the Taleban as heroes who will destroy the evil elite.

When I said that "In simple terms, they hate the elite more than they hate the Taleban" I actually meant that they prefer the Taleban over their present system.

And yet haven't these same people been witnesses to the abuses the same Taliban subjected them to in their brief rule over their areas ? And I think its not so much as the 'power oriented or the economic' dimension but rather a significant impetus in that support stems from an ideological & social alignment with them. The romanticization exists less in the bourgeois-proletarian struggle & more in the notion that somehow we'd harken back to the justice & fair-play that epitomized the best of times throughout Muslim History whether its the time of the 4 Caliphs or the few after them who were good & that Pakistan will bounce back from this dilapidated State of ours into something respectable & truly sovereign.

 

[pak-marine]

Oh yes No doubt very much socially acceptable as talibans had a free hand for over 3 decades , they use to roam freely in many areas of Pakistan - due to islamisation process i recall seeing zia ul haq photos every where in pushtun bastis in karachi.

 

[Armstrong]

I think Pakistanis have been kept in a bubble for too long, protected by constructed and alternative histories. The propaganda fed is so dense - there probably was no chance to examine the faults or mistakes committed in history, because they were told they have always been right and righteous and the only reason for their fate is some evil conspiracy.
Whenever they are faced with facts contradicting their fed history, they simply refuse to believe them. They would rather call the facts as a conspiracy. May be it became a habit now. No one is ready to accept that he/she or his people did something bad like a suicide bombing.

No I disagree I don't think that either the notion that we've been fed lies & concocted history is true (I've gone through the same educational process) or that it has had a significant bearing on the empathy the Taliban may enjoy at the grass-root level. Our history may shape the national narrative of a country but not diminish its ability to reason in the light of events that we're living & in this case these people (the ones I've interacted with) were at the receiving end of the Talib Love.

I think some of what VCheng is saying makes sense but I still am not able to put the proverbial finger on the core reason here !

 

[VCheng]

And yet haven't these same people been witnesses to the abuses the same Taliban subjected them to in their brief rule over their areas ? And I think its not so much as the 'power oriented or the economic' dimension but rather a significant impetus in that support stems from an ideological & social alignment with them. The romanticization exists less in the bourgeois-proletarian struggle & more in the notion that somehow we'd harken back to the justice & fair-play that epitomized the best of times throughout Muslim History whether its the time of the 4 Caliphs or the few after them who were good & that Pakistan will bounce back from this dilapidated State of ours into something respectable & truly sovereign.

Those excesses are in the past, and memories fade, helped by suitable propaganda. The present troubles and dissatisfaction are in the present and reinforced daily. Couple that with the romanticization as you mention and one has the perfect recipe for delusional thinking.

 

[Armstrong]

Oh yes No doubt very much socially acceptable as talibans had a free hand for over 3 decades , they use to roam freely in many areas of Pakistan - due to islamisation process i recall seeing zia ul haq photos every where in pushtun bastis in karachi.

Yaar its not just about the Pashtun areas this is present in the rest of Pakistan across the ethnic spectrum. I pointed the Pashtun bit out because its the Pashtun belt that was the worst struck by the Taliban onslaught & it was all the more baffling to see support amongst them at the grass-root level.

 

[airmarshal]

Armstrong, please stop thanking everyone. You tend to thank even conflicting posts. And can we keep Indians away from this post? They come here with an unbound wisdom when it comes to Pakistan.

 

[Armstrong]

Armstrong, please stop thanking everyone. You tend to thank even conflicting posts. And can we keep Indians away from this post? They come here with an unbound wisdom when it comes to Pakistan.

I'm thanking anyone who comments on a topic I wanted to discuss, not to show my agreement with their post !

 

[SHAMK9]

Never been to Peshawar so I don't know what to say

 

[rubyjackass]

No I disagree I don't think that either the notion that we've been fed lies & concocted history is true (I've gone through the same educational process) or that it has had a significant bearing on the empathy the Taliban may enjoy at the grass-root level. Our history may shape the national narrative of a country but not diminish its ability to reason in the light of events that we're living & in this case these people (the ones I've interacted with) were at the receiving end of the Talib Love.

I think some of what VCheng is saying makes sense but I still am not able to put the proverbial finger on the core reason here !

It is not just Pakistanis. No one likes to accept their own faults.
My point is this:
You know some neighbors around you for a long time. Some one comes to you one day and tell that your neighbors did it. No one would believe it. Especially when they are 'good muslims' and muslims never commit such sins of course.

 

[muse]

Armstrong


Blame the the Pak army for this attitude - and no one else, not intellectuals, not media, not politicians - the Pak Army AKA the surrendering army, can't and WON'T protect Pakistanis - the people in KPK know this - The people are intimidated and they see that the surrendering army does not even have honor enough to leave no stone unturned in bringing to justice those who butchered Jawans, who beheaded them, who flayed them alive - but Saada Jairnail Kayani does have it in him to threaten the Supreme court and Majlis.

It is a reality that people are intimidated, and they know the surrendering army has never done anything but "Katcha Kaam", that if it suits their political machinations, the surrendering army will not just use extremists, it will even create them. So no point blaming people, they are just looking out for themselves, theyknow the surrendering army can not and will not.

 

[rubyjackass]

Armstrong, please stop thanking everyone. You tend to thank even conflicting posts. And can we keep Indians away from this post? They come here with an unbound wisdom when it comes to Pakistan.

I give thanks for a post I like or for an informative post even though I do not like it. There was a fight in PDF over removing thanks button some time ago .
And I do come with my prejudices... you just have to put up with it or curse me directly.

 

[Armstrong]

It is not just Pakistanis. No one likes to accept their own faults.
My point is this:
You know some neighbors around you for a long time. Some one comes to you one day and tell that your neighbors did it. No one would believe it. Especially when they are 'good muslims' and muslims never commit such sins of course.

Dude the conundrum isn't that so much as it is that these people had seen & experience Talib rule....we all have heard about it & experience it in varying degrees - What more of a litmus test is required ? Why then the empathy ? Thats whats biting at me !

 

[VCheng]

Armstrong


Blame the the Pak army for this attitude - and no one else, not intellectuals, not media, not politicians - the Pak Army AKA the surrendering army, can't and WON'T protect Pakistanis - the people in KPK know this - The people are intimidated and they see that the surrendering army does not even have honor enough to leave no stone unturned in bringing to justice those who butchered Jawans, who beheaded them, who flayed them alive - but Saada Jairnail Kayani does have it in him to threaten the Supreme court and Majlis.

It is a reality that people are intimidated, and they know the surrendering army has never done anything but "Katcha Kaam", that if it suits their political machinations, the surrendering army will not just use extremists, it will even create them. So no point blaming people, they are just looking out for themselves, theyknow the surrendering army can not and will not.

Muse:

As much I as I criticize the Army, the question posed by Armstrong can not be explained in toto by holding only the Army accountable. It is a failure of ALL organs of the State that has brought the present picture into view.