Social Acceptability of the Talib & the Talib Ideology !

[Armstrong]

So people dislike those that give up time with family and loved ones work in hard dangerous enviroments and risk thier lives to keep people safe.

Yet like the people that strut round making arbritary rules about music beards and the length of your pants shoot people they dont like and steal what they want?

I would say the people your father was talking to have no experience of the life of a soldier and none of living under the taliban.

Dude it wasn't about the tough life a soldier goes through or not it, if he & I from understood it correctly, revolved around :

1) The general opinion that we were freedom fighters when we were fighting an infidel army because it suited the US interests & now we're terrorists because we fight another infidel army on Muslim Lands & by extension Pakistan being in bed with them.

2) If they (the Army & the Government) is going to not only sit back & allow drone-strikes whereby our loved ones are killed & even go a step further by not only providing supply routes to those who kill Muslims (including some who are family) both across the border & in drone strikes on sovereign Pakistani territory, then why shouldn't the Talib be justified in picking up arms against them !

And 3) The ISI & other security apparatus is conducting these suicide bombings deliberately to change the public opinion about the War to sell it as Our War against Militancy & so we don't buy it !

These gentlemen were more or less the perceptions, as understood, of the people he talked to. My question is : Are the reflective of the opinions of more people or did he just have a run in with the wrong guys !

 

[RazPaK]

It's a nation wide issue, not just kpk. You will find taliban sympathizers all over the country.

 

[chauvunist]

@Armstrong...Back before suicide attacks started in pakistan when people didnt know the reality of these people(taliban),there was some sympathy in General population for These Elements but now the situation is completely changed because as people are aware who are these and what are they....People here are so tired of these scumbags and unease created because of them that they just want peace...i have my friends from tribal areas and how sick are they of these ttp, thats unimagineable becuase atrocities done by TTP there dont come public and only they know...

 

[airmarshal]

Yes unfortunately, this is true, even in swat some people still have soft corner for barbaric talibs, though this ratio is very less in chitral region but it exists due to Islamic values which these talibs show in a way that these people are right pious people but in actions it's totally opposite, Imo Talibs have no place in Pakistan, all such religious organizations should be banned, as weirdly these promote anti modern study values and prefer resistance to everything they can relate to west in anyway but then again you find them using products emerged from west. It just confuses peoples minds and lead them to think hypocritically

I think I would like to make two points for this inclination.

1. Social injustice leads people to extreme views.

2. Ever since Pakistan has gleefully joined this 'war', its seen by many in Pakistan as Pakistani elites (read army and politicians) siding with the infidel which in this case is America to crush their fellow Muslim brothers.This perception can be reversed if we leave this 'war' for good. If we dont, our society will become more polarized, more extreme and it will be difficult to reign in such sentiment. The sentiment of sympathy is always with the underdog.

 

[Armstrong]

@Armstrong...Back before suicide attacks started in pakistan when people didnt know the reality of these people(taliban),there was some sympathy in General population for These Elements but now the situation is completely changed because as people are aware who are these and what are they....People here are so tired of these scumbags and unease created because of them that they just want peace...i have my friends from tribal areas and how sick are they of these ttp, thats unimagineable becuase atrocities done by TTP there dont come public and only they know...

Yaraa thats why I was so baffled because I've seen surveys coming out of the Tribal Areas which say that they'd want the Army to Govern them & then there are you guys & my Pashtun friends from either those areas or up North or Islamabad ! But whenever I've talked to people who are either 'illiterate' or 'extreme in their religious views' (extreme relative to what I'd find palatable & I have a fairly big threshold) they've almost unanimously supported the Taliban & opposed the Army ! And thats not particular to the Pashtun belt but here in Lahore (amongst Punjabis) as well.

Theres this guy from Bajaur with his shop in the market near my place & hes as Pro-Taliban as they get ! He thinks that the Army is deliberately starting these operations & the ISI blowing stuff up to milk more money from the US ! I've tried but I've yet to convince him otherwise & whenever we're having this conversation most others who stand by (Pashtun or otherwise) usually nod their heads in agreement with whatever he is saying.

So I'm not talking about whether they are right in their conviction or wrong but that I've experience such a perception to exist & its widespread ! Have you guys too ?

 

[VCheng]

..................
So my question essentially is that 'Do you guys agree that there is significant socially acceptability of the Talib & his ideology amongst Pakistanis in general & the Pashtun belt in particular or that it is not as widespread as it appears to me ?'

I think that there is a significant proportion of the population that is sympathetic to the Taliban ideology, and this is increasing quite rapidly. Part of the reason for this popularity is the abysmal failure of the government to provide for social development, which makes the deprived population susceptible to someone who comes to them and promises them an equitable share and a rose garden besides. Among the middle and higher classes, the causes additionally include grandiose and romanticized illusions of a unified Ummah and Caliphate as a way of restoring past Muslim glory.

Notify me, should the OP wishes to move this thread to Seniors cafe.

But if you do that, most of the proletariat including me, will be excluded from the discussion.

 

[chauvunist]

Yaraa thats why I was so baffled because I've seen surveys coming out of the Tribal Areas which say that they'd want the Army to Govern them & then there are you guys & my Pashtun friends from either those areas or up North or Islamabad ! But whenever I've talked to people who are either 'illiterate' or 'extreme in their religious views' (extreme relative to what I'd find palatable & I have a fairly big threshold) they've almost unanimously supported the Taliban & opposed the Army ! And thats not particular to the Pashtun belt but here in Lahore (amongst Punjabis) as well.

Theres this guy from Bajaur with his shop in the market near my place & hes as Pro-Taliban as they get ! He thinks that the Army is deliberately starting these operations & the ISI blowing stuff up to milk more money from the US ! I've tried but I've yet to convince him otherwise & whenever we're having this conversation most others who stand by (Pashtun or otherwise) usually nod their heads in agreement with whatever he is saying.

So I'm not talking about whether they are right in their conviction or wrong but that I've experience such a perception to exist & its widespread ! Have you guys too ?

its quite Diminished and as things are getting clear with time it will diminish further...

 

[Armstrong]

I think that there is a significant proportion of the population that is sympathetic to the Taliban ideology, and this is increasing quite rapidly. Part of the reason for this popularity is the abysmal failure of the government to provide for social development, which makes the deprived population susceptible to someone who comes to them and promises them an equitable share and a rose garden besides. Among the middle and higher classes, the causes additionally include grandiose and romanticized illusions of a unified Ummah and Caliphate as a way of restoring past Muslim glory.

Indeed sir but what I find strange is that these were the people who've weathered the onslaught of the Taliban with their regressive methodologies the most & even the rest of us have heard about their atrocities in Swat & parts of the Tribal Areas in detail ! Why then does a soft spot exist ? We should have become militantly anti-Taliban after all of that & yet we're not ? Why ?

 

[VCheng]

Indeed sir but what I find strange is that these were the people who've weathered the onslaught of the Taliban with their regressive methodologies the most & even the rest of us have heard about their atrocities in Swat & parts of the Tribal Areas in detail ! Why then does a soft spot exist ? We should have become militantly anti-Taliban after all of that & yet we're not ? Why ?

Because people desire to see the existing system of privilege and exploitation brought down, no matter if they pay a heavy price for it themselves by the oppression that will surely follow.

In simple terms, they hate the elite more than they hate the Taleban.

That is why.

 

[Armstrong]

its quite Diminished and as things are getting clear with time it will diminish further...

I hope you're right but the apparent lack of authority of the FC or the Police in Peshawar never mind the Tribal Areas was quite conspicuous & a bad omen. The murder of two Police Officials recently (SPs I think) alongside jail-breakouts, suicide bombings, target killings & kidnappings allude to there being enough local support (throughout the country) for the Taliban to come from within the population...do their thing with impunity & then melt back in ! That is scaring the sh*t out of me on so many levels !

 

[INDIC]

Indeed sir but what I find strange is that these were the people who've weathered the onslaught of the Taliban with their regressive methodologies the most & even the rest of us have heard about their atrocities in Swat & parts of the Tribal Areas in detail ! Why then does a soft spot exist ? We should have become militantly anti-Taliban after all of that & yet we're not ? Why ?

Few months back I saw a documentary that during 2010 flood government never came forward to help people, instead local people were explaining how Taliban came to help them.

 

[Armstrong]

Because people desire to see the existing system of privilege and exploitation brought down, no matter if they pay a heavy price for it themselves by the oppression that will surely follow.

In simple terms, they hate the elite more than they hate the Taleban.

That is why.

Yaraa from my Dad's conversations & my own (both to Punjabis & Pashtuns) it didn't appear if the exploited hate them - the Taliban. It appeared as if there exist a sense of affinity which is more in line with painting Mullah Omar up as some sort of a 21st Century figure-head in the same mold as Omar ibn Al-Khattab than a lunatic hell bent on kicking out the Americans even if means the destruction of every last Afghan.

Its anything but simple ! It as if we're suffering from the Stockholm Syndrome, in this context, on a glorified national level !

Few months back I saw a documentary that during 2010 flood government never came forward to help people, instead local people were explaining how Taliban came to help them.

I've heard similar reports too but I don't understand how one act of goodness can whitewash hundreds others whereby the very social & economic fabric of the society was torn apart by the Taliban. How can we have such short memories ?

 

[VCheng]

Yaraa from my Dad's conversations & my own (both to Punjabis & Pashtuns) it didn't appear if the exploited hate them - the Taliban. It appeared as if there exist a sense of affinity which is more in line with painting Mullah Omar up as some sort of a 21st Century figure-head in the same mold as Omar ibn Al-Khattab than a lunatic hell bent on kicking out the Americans even if means the destruction of every last Afghan.

Its anything but simple ! It as if we're suffering from the Stockholm Syndrome, in this context, on a glorified national level !

Those romanticized notions of the Taleban and their leaders are born of a desire to see the present system brought down. Since they cannot bring it down themselves, the people would like to think of the Taleban as heroes who will destroy the evil elite.

When I said that "In simple terms, they hate the elite more than they hate the Taleban" I actually meant that they prefer the Taleban over their present system.

 

[Karachiite]

One has to be a vicious animal to actually sympathize with TTP. The problem is Pakistanis differentiate between Taliban and TTP, both groups are terrorists and need to be wiped out. I'd imagine there is a lot of sympathy among Pathans for taliban due to ethnic nationalism. I know that among the middle class in urban cities like Karachi and Islamabad, sympathy for the taliban is not rampant. I have seen that hardcore religious folks do try to justify the taliban and its acts.

 

[VCheng]

................
I've heard similar reports too but I don't understand how one act of goodness can whitewash hundreds others whereby the very social & economic fabric of the society was torn apart by the Taliban. How can we have such short memories ?

People tend to respond to kindness much better than cruelty.