So how good is Pakistan’s JF-17 fighter? Analysis from RUSI think-tank’s Justin Bronk

[Maarkhoor]

SU is sitting ducks at low speed for what ?
do you know any jet with speed having more than air to air missiles ?

SU-30 is capable to stop in midair search pugachev cobra maneuver.

 

[GriffinsRule]

Su-30, though a heavier version of the Flanker series is definitely a top class dog fighter and would be augmented with helmet mounted sights making it a very significant threat to any PAF fighter once the merge occurs and fighters are in the WVR arena. On top of that, having two pair of eyes in the cockpit, it would give them better situational awareness as well. I would bet the Sukhoi would come on top in most such engagements.
Lets also not forget that while we will be upgrading the JF-17 incrementally, the IAF is also set to update its fleet of Su-30s in the near future.

 

[BATMAN]

Epic

and jf can outmaneuver any incoming missile/machine gun fire with it's speed or maneuverability ? that SU is not capable of

Maneuverability of SU30 is same as SU27, machine gun fight happens at low altitude and low speed, where jF-17 has HUGE advantage of over SU... refer to red flag exercises where Indian SU participated with BVR, but were knocked out with machine gun.
Incoming missile are neutralized by ECM or even before by staying stealth, which again jF-17 can do much better.
SU30 has more powerful radar and more hardpoints.. if that helps float some one's boat...

 

[!eon]

Maneuverability of SU30 is same as SU27, machine gun fight happens at low altitude and low speed, where jF-17 has HUGE advantage of over SU... refer to red flag exercises where Indian SU participated, with BVR but were knocked out with machine gun.
Incoming missile are neutralized by ECM or even before by staying stealth, which again jF-17 can do much better.
SU30 has more powerful radar.. if that helps float some one's boat...

Okay

 

[MiG-35-BD]

The main advantage of the Indian FLANKER is the large number of bvr shots it can take. Its literally a flying SAM site. Combined with powerful jammers and a powerful radar, it can take a lot of shots and then choose do disengage if it wishes.

WVR is a great equalizer, but even here the FLANKER has the slight advantage on the merge because of its helmet cued AAMs. Once the JFT has that, it will have the advantage in WVR at below 100 FL due to its small size, being hard to see in a furball.

The big downside of the FLANKER is high costs of operations, and low availability rates. This means at any given point, with overall low availability and sortie rates.

The JFT on the other hand will be able to generate a very large number of sorties per day.

The powerful engines on the Su30MKI will allow it to fly high, fast and rain down at good range a large number of BVRs.

PS: Maneuverability of the Indian MKI is not the same as an Su-27. Because of increased weight and the second seat, it has much higher wing loading, a short hand for lower EM performance.

 

[GriffinsRule]

Maneuverability of SU30 is same as SU27, machine gun fight happens at low altitude and low speed, where jF-17 has HUGE advantage of over SU... refer to red flag exercises where Indian SU participated, with BVR but were knocked out with machine gun.
Incoming missile are neutralized by ECM or even before by staying stealth, which again jF-17 can do much better.
SU30 has more powerful radar.. if that helps float some one's boat...

I think a better comparison instead of the Red Flag could be the most recent exercises with the PLAAF in which their J-11s were able to take on the Thunder as expected.

The post earlier touting Su-30 as a mini-AWACs is actually a disadvantage. If you want to use the radar at max power, letting the entire world know where you are, then by all means ... PAF would love that. PAF tactics should be to get as close to the enemy fighters as possible while being silent and using any EW/ECM to hide their presence and then surprise the IAF by taking first BVR shots.

I think whichever aircraft is able to get the first shot would automatically put the opponent on the defensive and thus be in a better position to dictate the merge.

 

[Dash]

And you are taking my comment completely out of context. My original reply was to someone who said flanker can beat thunder based simply on its super-maneuverability. And my response was that in a real fight this super-maneuverability is of no use. Is this very hard to understand?

Ok so you are talking about dog fight scenario I get it. But there also your understanding is not pretty accurate.

A lighter fighter doesn’t mean better agility. E.g., JF 17 has 1:1 TWR as of now. And Mki has more than any fighter in its segment can offer, 1:15. The triplane design of Sukhoi is essentially a mixture of an F16 a Mig 29 which are basically intended for dog fighting and add a twin engine to that.

On the other hand JF 17 is a similar concept of delta wing which is designed for speed at max out with stability with BVR as the basic design element which means a small looking fighter in escort role giving escort to heavy ones.

And seeing the enemy first. Su 30 will suffer damage when it goes against the like of Eagle or even Eurofighter, heck it will be neck neck against F 16! In dog fights. But it doesn’t mean that it will go with a white flag already.

This one that we have was meant for a different purpose and I won’t go there. But in a nutshell that’s for you.

 

[BATMAN]

I think a better comparison instead of the Red Flag could be the most recent exercises with the PLAAF in which their J-11s were able to take on the Thunder as expected.

The post earlier touting Su-30 as a mini-AWACs is actually a disadvantage. If you want to use the radar at max power, letting the entire world know where you are, then by all means ... PAF would love that. PAF tactics should be to get as close to the enemy fighters as possible while being silent and using any EW/ECM to hide their presence and then surprise the IAF by taking first BVR shots.

I think whichever aircraft is able to get the first shot would automatically put the opponent on the defensive and thus be in a better position to dictate the merge.

Exactly.. tactics is the keyword.

 

[CriticalThought]

and Putin coming to buy one more maneuverability than theirs ... it's jf-17 .. their are sitting ducks ... no missile can reach jf17 ..

Hey buster, how about you take a walk and return only after you want to talk some sense.

 

[!eon]

Hey buster, how about you take a walk and return only after you want to talk some sense.

Really ?e

First you make some sense and explain how's that disadvantage ...

 

[CriticalThought]

Ok so you are talking about dog fight scenario I get it. But there also your understanding is not pretty accurate.

A lighter fighter doesn’t mean better agility. E.g., JF 17 has 1:1 TWR as of now. And Mki has more than any fighter in its segment can offer, 1:15. The triplane design of Sukhoi is essentially a mixture of an F16 a Mig 29 which are basically intended for dog fighting and add a twin engine to that.

On the other hand JF 17 is a similar concept of delta wing which is designed for speed at max out with stability with BVR as the basic design element which means a small looking fighter in escort role giving escort to heavy ones.

And seeing the enemy first. Su 30 will suffer damage when it goes against the like of Eagle or even Eurofighter, heck it will be neck neck against F 16! In dog fights. But it doesn’t mean that it will go with a white flag already.

This one that we have was meant for a different purpose and I won’t go there. But in a nutshell that’s for you.

Well, all I can say, is you guys should try it out one day and see how it performs in a dog fight. I am not entirely writing off the flanker either. My original argument was with someone who considers Thunder a complete write off against flanker.

 

[Dash]

The post earlier touting Su-30 as a mini-AWACs is actually a disadvantage.

Whether it’s an advantage or disadvantage that will depend on what the mission outline is.

A generalist approach with out mission parameters is nothing but blasphemy.

 

[CriticalThought]

Really ?e

First you make some sense and explain how's that disadvantage ...

Sure. How about you wipe that laugh off your face first? Show respect if you want a respectful reply.

 

[Dash]

Well, all I can say, is you guys should try it out one day and see how it performs in a dog fight. I am not entirely writing off the flanker either. My original argument was with someone who considers Thunder a complete write off against flanker.

You won’t survive to see the day when flanker tries JF. Pun intended.

If some says so then you walk out of that debate. It’s like saying 1300cc doesn’t stand a chance with 2500cc. I don’t think he meant that. All you need to do is talk with maturity.

 

[CriticalThought]

You won’t survive to see the day when flanker tries JF. Pun intended.

If some says so then you walk out of that debate. It’s like saying 1300cc doesn’t stand a chance with 2500cc. I don’t think he meant that. All you need to do is talk with maturity.

There are some people here who come with the aim of being a nuisance. I have found the only way of dealing with them is to make them feel the pain in their own coin.