Six Americans die in suicide attack in Afghan capital

[AUz]

China is actually the one supplying the slave labor. Not Japan and Korea.

haha..ok, if that makes you feel good.

Btw, Chinese economy is larger than Japan/Korea combined....AND Chinese achieved it WITHOUT being 'slaves' of western masters...

In fact China looked up to Japans success and how it became the second largest economy, and tried to emulate it.

So?

Human beings learn from eachother..thats no biggy.

Western world emulated Arabs in alot of ways...cuz back then, Arabs had their sh!t together. Today, other people emulate Western models of success etc.

Btw, South Koreans emulated Pakistani economic model of 1960's

The US controlled Germany for some time and implemented economic plans as they did in Japan.

Even without it, Germany would've been a great economic power..just like it always was.

And yet most Arabs agree US meant to overthow Gadaffi who for years was against American interest, as with Assad.
Either way more chaos in the Arab world. Armed rebel groups fighting one another, civil strife.

Arabs over-threw dictators..simple as that. Mubarak and western honey-son Ben Ali were overthrown even before Gadafi..

Revolutions are always followed by violence, civil strife...

I disagree, the cycle will repeat because it is culture. Arabs have Emirs and kings. Thus far most have been willing to sell out to the US or Russians.

Even if Arabs get emirs and kings, they won't be western lackeys as Mubarak or Ben Ali were...Arab Spring has changed this forever...

Arab World will have a good working relationship with West..just like Turkey has. But no one is willing to be servant of west (talking about Arabs in general..not their sell-out rulers like Mubarak or Ben Ali were etc)..

Just like how you have a lot in common with Indians in terms of language, family structure, food, etc - same applies to all regions of the world. East Asian countries at times have been part of one another hence the cultural closeness.

Dont deny the obvious.

Yet they aren't one civilization as you claimed.

Also, North-Western india is close to Pakistan. South or East India is not...not by even one parameter.

Which Islamic empire won over China? China was never under muslim rule from my understanding, please enlighten me.

No one said that Islamic Empire won "over" China...

Here's is a good starter for you ..

Battle of Talas

Battle of Talas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes there is. Why else would Arabs, Turks, Iranians argue over which empires were theirs, who contributed what, and which race is superior. Why else do you think Mustafa Kemal removed Persian and Arab words from the language?

Nationalism. Absolute normal.

It doesn't imply a hierarchy in Islam. None of the above mentioned claim to be superior Muslims...Every race is self-centered and claims to be superior than others...

C'mon, don't make a fool out of yourself.

That was a local culture - not an empire like the Turkic, Arab ones I meant. Not did it shape history like theirs did.

Ottoman Empire shaped history b/c it conquered European lands..and hence for you, a Westerner, Ottoman Empire is more relevant...

But it doesn't mean that it was relevant to Pakistan too. Pakistani history is shaped due to other regional empires/factors/forces..about which you have no idea. So just quit it.

Before coming to West, I had no idea of who Caesar was...b/c he was/is completely irrelevant to me and my surroundings.

I don't even know why are you arguing this?

 

[gambit]

Unlike Japanese/South Koreans, Islamic World doesn't bend over to West. Muslims kept their own culture, traditions, religion etc globally (Western influence is there, but so is Eastern/Islamic influence in West)....OTOH, South Koreans/Japanese who "westernized" their societies and literally changed the face of their cultures by adapting the culture of their 'masters'.

Muslims see their culture as not only equal but superior to that of West's, due to many reasons (Religion, long shinning history of being global leaders/powers for 1100+ years, past conflicts with West etc). Hence any "imposition" of change by West, even if for the better, can not work with Muslims. I hope America has learnt it by now..

Let Muslims figure their sh!t out by themselves... Egypt, Pakistan, Iran, Turkey etc are showing signs of progress. People are becoming more and more politically aware. Watch Muslim Brotherhood getting BOMBED in next Egypt elections, if they didn't perform (as it seems to to be the case).

Lastly, 'changing' Europeans wasn't a big deal. America is just an extension of Western Europe..

You can say to assuage your feelings of inferiority and puff yourself up all you want, but behind closed doors, smarter people than you will look at 20th century ME as another experiment in the grand human experience and will analyze the Muslims' societies in that context. They will see the Asians are as alien a society and culture to the Americans as the Muslims are as alien a society and culture to the Americans, and they will analyze the differences in results. Cultures that are static -- dies. Not immediately, of course, but dying a slow and painful death is inevitable. That is why the Japanese, the South Koreans, and even the Chinese, have adopted some Western values and the results are that they thrives. Insulting them by calling them subservient to the West will do the Muslims no good but serves as an emotional lollipop. Not even intellectual, but emotional.

 

[Wholegrain]

Or maybe the others are smarter and realize economy is priority. Muslims dont and thus starve while "occupied" japan, Korea, Taiwan, Germany prosper, while you are ruled by strongmen on US payroll. Muslims dont hold a candle to East Asian civilization - now or in the past. dont kid yourself.

And you being Pakistani are even lower on the muslims hierarchy - Turks, Arabs, Persians have their unique place in history. WTF do you have.

Taiwan has no American soldiers or bases, they got kicked out along time ago. And America targets Taiwan every few years with massive contracts for billions of dollars worth of stripped down weapons, I call it robbery. The only people who really want Taiwan and China to go to war are white westerners. I have relatives in both countries and most of us don't want it to happen.

 

[AUz]

You can say to assuage your feelings of inferiority and puff yourself up all you want

Why would I have any inferiority-feelings? Atleast, I'm a Pakistani-American and not Vietnamese-American

, but behind closed doors, smarter people than you will look at 20th century ME as another experiment in the grand human experience and will analyze the Muslims' societies in that context. They will see the Asians are as alien a society and culture to the Americans as the Muslims are as alien a society and culture to the Americans, and they will analyze the differences in results. Cultures that are static -- dies. Not immediately, of course, but dying a slow and painful death is inevitable. That is why the Japanese, the South Koreans, and even the Chinese, have adopted some Western values and the results are that they thrives. Insulting them by calling them subservient to the West will do the Muslims no good but serves as an emotional lollipop. Not even intellectual, but emotional.

And thats what you think. No culture is 'static'. Cultures of Muslim nations are ever-changing, ever-evolving just like all other cultures. I fail to see what western 'values' China and others adapted? Industrialization, free-market, democracy etc aren't exclusively "western values" .. ...

 

[Wright]

Taiwan has no American soldiers or bases, they got kicked out along time ago. And America targets Taiwan every few years with massive contracts for billions of dollars worth of stripped down weapons, I call it robbery. The only people who really want Taiwan and China to go to war are white westerners. I have relatives in both countries and most of us don't want it to happen.

You notice I put quotation marks, meaning I dont believe any of that occupied BS. Taiwan always has the option to re-unify with China - I doubt anyone has power over that decision except Chinese people themselves. I have never heard any westerner wanting Taiwan to go to war, nor do they want SK, Japan to go to war. But perhaps you have had interaction with some anomalous cases.

 

[Wright]

Btw, Chinese economy is larger than Japan/Korea combined....AND Chinese achieved it WITHOUT being 'slaves' of western masters...

Not that big rally - Japan ranks pretty close and they did it without having the worlds largest population, and polluting their cities.

Even without it, Germany would've been a great economic power..just like it always was.

Same applies to Japan, which was the only nation to defeat western powers post industrial revolution.

Arabs over-threw dictators..simple as that. Mubarak and western honey-son Ben Ali were overthrown even before Gadafi..

Revolutions are always followed by violence, civil strife...

People - Arabs in particular are already saying Morsi sold out, Libya is in worse shape. Iraq is a puppet country, Syria is bing overtaken by GCC (US allies) influence. I dont see where you are going with this.

Yet they aren't one civilization as you claimed.

Also, North-Western india is close to Pakistan. South or East India is not...not by even one parameter.

Ok, I did not know this.

Nationalism. Absolute normal.

It doesn't imply a hierarchy in Islam. None of the above mentioned claim to be superior Muslims...Every race is self-centered and claims to be superior than others...

C'mon, don't make a fool out of yourself.

Glad to see you accept this reality and are not deluded into some muslim brotherhood thinking like many of your compatriots are.

Ottoman Empire shaped history b/c it conquered European lands..and hence for you, a Westerner, Ottoman Empire is more relevant...

But it doesn't mean that it was relevant to Pakistan too. Pakistani history is shaped due to other regional empires/factors/forces..about which you have no idea. So just quit it.

Before coming to West, I had no idea of who Caesar was...b/c he was/is completely irrelevant to me and my surroundings.

I don't even know why are you arguing this?

Influence is determined by the geographical size of the empire, ground breaking innovation, and prestige (conquering other well known empires). You must be very isolated of you have never heard of Ceaser, the month of July is named after him.

Ottoman, Roman, Ummayud, Achaemenid empires were the superpowers of their day. Same cant be said for the Indus farming culture.

 

[Wholegrain]

Not that big rally - Japan ranks pretty close and they did it without having the worlds largest population, and polluting their cities.








Same applies to Japan, which was the only nation to defeat western powers post industrial revolution.





People - Arabs in particular are already saying Morsi sold out, Libya is in worse shape. Iraq is a puppet country, Syria is bing overtaken by GCC (US allies) influence. I dont see where you are going with this.





Ok, I did not know this.





Glad to see you accept this reality and are not deluded into some muslim brotherhood thinking like many of your compatriots are.




Influence is determined by the geographical size of the empire, ground breaking innovation, and prestige (conquering other well known empires). You must be very isolated of you have never heard of Ceaser, the month of July is named after him.

Ottoman, Roman, Ummayud, Achaemenid empires were the superpowers of their day. Same cant be said for the Indus farming culture.

Japan has relied on America for military protection and while China's had to develop and produce hundreds of nuclear weapons, intercontinental ballistic missles and maintain a massive standing army (because of the Soviet Union).

The French army's performance in the Sino-French war was humiliating and the war ended with a military disaster for France with the retreat from Lang Son and the French were pinned down on Taiwan. China only agreed to come to the negotiating table because both Russia and Japan threatened to support France and launch an invasion of China. France had to evacuate Taiwan and drop its demand for an indemnity which it wanted after China ambushed and killed French soldiers at Bac Le.

And this was with China operating its military with the worse level of management, corruption, and inefficiency. China's northern fleet and armies refused to join in the war to fight against France, all the fighting was done by southern provincial armies.

In the Boxer Rebellion, over 90% of China's provincial armies (hundreds of thousands equipped with rifles and machine guns) didn't respond to the declaration of war, yet the first Allied expedition was manhandled and humiliated, it took days of a bloody siege at Tianjin and a second expeditionary force of tens of thousands to force its way to Beijing.

Japan only won one war against Russia and it relied on tens of thousands of Chinese guerillas in Manchuria led by Zhang Zuolin. Most of Japan's victories were against other asians and it colonized and exploited other asians.

 

[gambit]

Why would I have any inferiority-feelings?

Because your sympathy lies with the Muslims.

Atleast, I'm a Pakistani-American and not Vietnamese-American

What does this mean? That somehow being a Pakistani make you a superior to a Viet?

There are two different ethos here: religious and ethnic. Apparently to you, being Pakistani is better than being a Viet. And to think people call the US a racist country.

And thats what you think. No culture is 'static'. Cultures of Muslim nations are ever-changing, ever-evolving just like all other cultures. I fail to see what western 'values' China and others adapted? Industrialization, free-market, democracy etc aren't exclusively "western values" .. ...

The issue is what to adopt, not about change. And it does not matter if certain values are uniquely 'Western' or not. If capitalism was abandoned, then take it up again. If democratic principles are new and seemed to be successful, then use it. All you have to do is look at the ME today and see where the region failed, which is plenty. And of course, you can console yourself that those failures are signs of independence.

 

[AUz]

Because your sympathy lies with the Muslims

Sympathy? lol..

My well-wishes lies with the Muslims, Chinese, and even Indians. Heck, other than the imperialist foreign policy, my well-wishes lies with the West too..specially in the field of Science and Technology. You have no idea how proud I feel when I watch the animation of NASA's Mars mission...

What does this mean? That somehow being a Pakistani make you a superior to a Viet?

No...

There are two different ethos here: religious and ethnic. Apparently to you, being Pakistani is better than being a Viet. And to think people call the US a racist country.

Don't worry about that.

The issue is what to adopt, not about change. And it does not matter if certain values are uniquely 'Western' or not. If capitalism was abandoned, then take it up again. If democratic principles are new and seemed to be successful, then use it. All you have to do is look at the ME today and see where the region failed, which is plenty. And of course, you can console yourself that those failures are signs of independence.

Democracy can't start working right away in all cultures. Muslims will have their own democracy..their own way of governing themselves....

Also, Middle-East is barely 10% of total Islamic Population of the world..I like how you regard its troubles as "failures of Muslims" ...hah.