Single Engine Gripen NG may win MMRCA

[Frank Martin]

I think the F-16IN is the most logical choice. F-16 is one of them most proven platforms out there. The IN variant is also pretty much on par with the Block 60s the UAE operates. AESA radars would give India the advantage over all other F-16 forces as far as BVR goes. That and the F110-132A engine would give it amazing performance.

F16 is not a Multi Role Combat Aircraft..Its better for the Dog fights..Also the platform will recieve its end in the next 5 years..FA 18 SH is a good option and cheaper than the Rafael

 

[!!craft!!]

I think the F-16IN is the most logical choice. F-16 is one of them most proven platforms out there. The IN variant is also pretty much on par with the Block 60s the UAE operates. AESA radars would give India the advantage over all other F-16 forces as far as BVR goes. That and the F110-132A engine would give it amazing performance.

f16 is a good platform but with no future the Americans them selfs are gonna replace them with the jsf f35 in a couple of years...

 

[sancho]

Well you missed the "take". Thus leading to the confusion.

True, but it was clear what Santro meant, so elites post was not necessary!
Leave that issue and get back to topic please.

 

[sancho]

Hornets is 30% cheaper than Rafael
Usa has offered the block3 upgrade to IAF post 2017 which includes 6th generation avionics and internal weapons bay
USA will be far bigger political coup.

"I CANT SEE WHY RAFAEL WOULD WIN"
#
can anybody ???????

Not sure where you get that from, but there is nothing like 6. gen avionics and there is a big difference between an internal weapon bay and just a weapon pod like boeing offers. Besides that most of the upgrades won't come in time for MMRCA, they also won't come for free, which makes the F18 SH costlier again and much closer to Rafale.

How about:

- radar source codes
- full ToT
- no restrictions
- customisation possible
- lower RCS
- better T/W ratio
- integrated IRST
- more range
- more payload

should be enough for now I guess.

The F18SH is not a bad fighter, but for our forces the Rafale is clearly the best option, because it offers the best allround performance.


P.S. When you want to discuss about the MMRCA contenders in generall, wouldn't the MMRCA thread be the better place?

 

[FSLN]

Rafale is clearly the best option, because it offers the best allround performance.

you want an all around performance? thats the MKi's Job, you want a superb A2G striker? thats SH job....

 

[Super Falcon]

 

[dbc]

there is a big difference between an internal weapon bay and just a weapon pod like boeing offers. Besides that most of the upgrades won't come in time for MMRCA, they also won't come for free, which makes the F18 SH costlier again and much closer to Rafale.

Care to prove any of the above? I found the part where you claim the F/A-18 will be as expensive as the Rafale - interesting. How do you know this? Tarot cards, crystal ball, Paul the octopus or a mystical street side soothsayer?

How about:

- radar source codes
- full ToT
- no restrictions
- customisation possible
- lower RCS
- better T/W ratio
- integrated IRST
- more range
- more payload

should be enough for now I guess.

The F18SH is not a bad fighter, but for our forces the Rafale is clearly the best option, because it offers the best allround performance.


P.S. When you want to discuss about the MMRCA contenders in generall, wouldn't the MMRCA thread the better place?

Laughable how you assert the Rafale is the best option for your air force? Were you part of the IAF team that evaluated these planes?

If the Rafale is indeed as capable as you claim then why haven't the French had any success finding an international customer? Why are potential customer including the UAE unhappy with the engine,radar and spectra? Even the much maligned Typhoon and Gripen have some international success. According to General Alain Silvy the Rafale program will become 'obviously complicated' unless an international customer is found or France cancels other military projects and diverts funding.

You claim the Rafale's RCS is lower than the Super Hornet - do you have any proof to back up that assertion?

As for ToT, how will the French provide 'Full ToT' for technology that does not belong to France?

Beyond informal briefings said to already have taken place, the six manufacturers are to receive a 250-page technical evaluation of how they did. Problems during the trials included the failures of engines and large electromechanical actuation systems.

Indian Fighter Downselect Coming | AVIATION WEEK

Can you guess which fighter experienced engine and EMA failure? Since two MMRCA contenders are powered by F-414 it is possible it was either the F/A-18 or Gripen - but considering the F-414 has logged a million hours of flight and is known to be extremely reliable it seems unlikely. Plus the F-414 has now been selected as the future power plant for the LCA Mk2 - the Indians are unlikely to pick an engine that failed.

With the exception of the M88 all the other engines are considerably mature in the words of General Alain Silvy "we have not yet reached the stage of maturity - which requires about 150,000 flight hours – with the current M88 with 7.5 tonnes thrust" .

As for electromechanical actuation failure, neither of the American F-teens nor the Russian Mig-35 are electro mechanically actuated - can you guess which of the three euro canards are electromechanically actuated?

 

[sancho]

@ DBC

Such a big post, but all I have to do to counter you is just to quote you!

No the UAE wants to diversify and the reduce risk of being locked to one country. I doubt the UAE will choose another American fighter - unless they're keen to quickly increase their offensive capability and are unwilling to wait for future Rafale developments...

...I agree with Sancho, I criticize the Rafale just to wind him up. The Rafale is still a good choice if the French offer co- development and get into a risk/reward/technology sharing agreement with India. If India agrees to fund and mature key technologies - make no mistake it will be more expensive and risky but it will immensely benefit both countries and is a symbiotic relationship. This is also the one area where the US offering is weak, although ToT compliant it still means that US technology cannot benefit other programs like LCA or MCA unless a separate agreement is reached.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/1171740-post53.html

How do you americans call it again? OWNED?

 

[Dash]

@DBC

If the Rafale is indeed as capable as you claim then why haven't the French had any success finding an international customer?

The rafale is not a failure for French. The failure to get a buyer is not because rafale is failed plane. Its purely teh French policies.

 

[FSLN]

How do you americans call it again? OWNED?

Not by the likes of you Sunny Boy...

 

[indushek]

Not by the likes of you Sunny Boy...

You misfired there for sure.

You will not get what i meant only people around for some time will know.

 

[dbc]

@ DBC

Such a big post, but all I have to do to counter you is just to quote you!



http://www.defence.pk/forums/1171740-post53.html

How do you americans call it again? OWNED?

Owned hardly , you just conceded the argument by admitting current production Rafale is inferior to the F/A-18.

Yes, a few years of joint development effort and cash infusion will benefit both countries and yield a product that may be as competitive as the Hornet offered to India today. I'm not the least surprised that recent reports place the F/A -18 and F-16's on the leader board. Were I making the decision for the IAF, I would in all likely hood choose the F-16. It fits the IAF's requirements to the hilt, cheap, powerful single engined aircraft with exceptional strike capability. With Israel as a reliable ally to back door spare parts and secret goodies.

But the F-16's are not as glamorous as the Typhoons or Rafale. It does not present the same mouth watering bragging opportunity for Indians on PDF. But guess what - the IAF doesn't really care, in all likely hood when the bids are opened the F-16 will be the L1(lowest) bidder. LM will be ecstatic to move the entire production line to India and take advantage of low manufacturing costs in India to compete against the Russians and Chinese.

An aviation small fry like Dassault is competing against aviation giants like Boeing and LM. Both are very keen to gain a foothold in the lucrative Indian market. You are very naive to think that the Rafale was ever competitive in the MMRCA race. This competition is not about T/W ratio, combat radius,RCS and what not. Its about money making opportunities for all ....the trails represent an attempt to make sure IAF's requirements are not forgotten in this aviation gold rush.

I've said this before, barring political force majeure either Boeing or LM will emerge victorious. My money stays on Boeing...

 

[sancho]

Owned hardly , you just conceded the argument by admitting current production Rafale is inferior to the F/A-18.

Yes, a few years of joint development effort and cash infusion will benefit both countries and yield a product that may be as competitive as the Hornet offered to India today. I'm not the least surprised that recent reports place the F/A -18 and F-16's on the leader board. Were I making the decision for the IAF, I would in all likely hood choose the F-16. It fits the IAF's requirements to the hilt, cheap, powerful single engined aircraft with exceptional strike capability. With Israel as a reliable ally to back door spare parts and secret goodies.

Hehe, caught red handed but still denying and distracting with other things.

But the F-16's are not as glamorous as the Typhoons or Rafale. It does not present the same mouth watering bragging opportunity for Indians on PDF. But guess what - the IAF doesn't really care, in all likely hood when the bids are opened the F-16 will be the L1(lowest) bidder. LM will be ecstatic to move the entire production line to India and take advantage of low manufacturing costs in India to compete against the Russians and Chinese.

Or the F16 does not offer enough advantages, when PAF has pretty much the same fighter and weapons and a huge advantage in terms of experience with it. There is no doubt about it, that the F16 is a very good multi role fighter (imo HAL should even have focused on developing a fighter in the F16 class, instead the light weight Mig 21 class). But the fact remains, that it does not offer enough advantages against PAF/PLAAF and is an old platform with very little future potential. It was stated often before from IAF and MoD, that the aim is to keep MMRCAs in service for at least 30 years and how capable will these F16s be in that time?

An aviation small fry like Dassault is competing against aviation giants like Boeing and LM. Both are very keen to gain a foothold in the lucrative Indian market. You are very naive to think that the Rafale was ever competitive in the MMRCA race. This competition is not about T/W ratio, combat radius,RCS and what not. Its about money making opportunities for all[ ....the trails represent an attempt to make sure IAF's requirements are not forgotten in this aviation gold rush.

I've said this before, barring political force majeure either Boeing or LM will emerge victorious. My money stays on Boeing...

Finally you admit the real reasons why the F18SH has so good chances in the competition. Not because it is the best fighter, or offers the most advantages for Indian forces, but simply because at the end these competitions are about politics and money. That are exactly the fields where the US as a country and big companies like Boeing, or LM have undenyiable advantages.
But that's also why other competitiors offer advantages in fields that LM and Boeing can't offer (the better fighter, partnerships, ToT, no restrictions). Just as I said all the time before, Rafale is the best suited fighter and offers the most advantages for our forces, but the F18SH remains to be the best in terms of political advantages.

So although you will never admit it directly to me, even you know that the Rafale is the better fighter and Dassault offers more advantages!

 

[softtec]

Not sure where you get that from, but there is nothing like 6. gen avionics and there is a big difference between an internal weapon bay and just a weapon pod like boeing offers. Besides that most of the upgrades won't come in time for MMRCA, they also won't come for free, which makes the F18 SH costlier again and much closer to Rafale.

How about:

- radar source codes
- full ToT
- no restrictions
- customisation possible
- lower RCS
- better T/W ratio
- integrated IRST
- more range
- more payload

should be enough for now I guess.

The F18SH is not a bad fighter, but for our forces the Rafale is clearly the best option, because it offers the best allround performance.


P.S. When you want to discuss about the MMRCA contenders in generall, wouldn't the MMRCA thread be the better place?

Hi Sancho,
Technologically Rafale is my favorable also.But there are few issues which comes with it.
1)Radar source code - How important its, when u get the whole range of weapons from that country itself.And as i know this doesn't make u a master to develop a new radar by ur own(IAF not panning MMRCA for that surely).And for that u have to pay extra nicely.
2.Lower RCS, more range, more payload - how much difference? think its so less to give importance.
But with block 2 upgraded radar has big difference in favor of SH.At any time SH will watch and track rafale better, faster and clearer.
With future SH upgrade(by 2015).The gap will increase more.
In practical SH has more advance radar, jamming features.They are master in these fields.
More importantly..Rafale comes with higher cost(with limited but costly weapons).It comes with uncertain(Risky) cost and time over head.
For that big number of deal, where we need to fill up things faster, Boeing is miles ahead anything u can expect from Rafale. Unlike Rafale, U can expect Boeing to deliver the up gradation in time, in budget and the trasition can be more smoothly.All these things matters much more than few aerodynamic advantage Rafale has