Since Earliest Historical Times Hinduism Was Never Popular in Pakistan

[resin]

at title - I guess it means since 1947/

 

[bronxbull]

Thank you for further elaborating the meaning of Mlechha. This gives a new meaning to the anti-Muslim sentiment of Indian Hindu population who identify Mlechhas as Muslims.

Meluhha and the IVC are realities which have been proven through archeological excavations and historical facts.

Unless the Indian Hindus move beyond their concept of broader Hindu Dharmic entity and start accepting the separate identity of various other faiths that inhibit Republic of India, there never will be a closure to discriminatory treatment of Indian minorities.



The land of Pakistan never had a Dharmic history as the Indian Hindus would like to propagate. Since the earliest of times, majority of the people of this land were monotheists, Buddhists and later followed Islam.

Nassr Saab

The Term Mlechcha exists since a much longer time before Islam happened,so u can be angry is someone called u Mlechcha but the term was not invented to insult muslims or for that matter anyone else.

Hindu Dharmic identities are a reality,and the existence of all the so called religions within one fold is also a reality.Only abrahamic religions have a problem and the reasons are obvious and long known.

so,please dont make others look at the world with your narrow prism and funny fake stories and adam and eve fundaes like RangerPak does.

Meluha & IVC are realities to the extent of the excavations,suppose there was something else which got destroyed,or some evidence which couldn't survive.

We dont look into such possibillities and even if some Aryan Invasion did take place,it happened so long ago,that there are no heroes and villains now.

 

[bronxbull]

Furthermore, looking at the so called & self confessed 'Noble Caste Of Brahmans', they look just like an average 'Head Shakin', smelly, openly defecating Injin'!

yeah but they are super intelligent,they make missiles and they are highly educated.

You may use a fork and toilet paper,but that doesn't make u anything.

where r u from?

u insult village culture,i dont think u can come from a agrarian punjabi background.

 

[Vinod2070]

yeah but they are super intelligent,they make missiles and they are highly educated.

You may use a fork and toilet paper,but that doesn't make u anything.

where r u from?

u insult village culture,i dont think u can come from a agrarian punjabi background.

Nope. Their civilization and culture is limited to wiping their behind with odd number of stones after doing the deed.

Because that is the final and perfect example to follow. It has been made mandatory for them.

It is really funny, what this identity crisis makes some people do...

 

[Nassr]

I do not see any references to 9000 years of Pak here or the "Pak civilization" you were talking about. And please don't quote Pak scholar Ahsan, we need neutral sources here. BTW even the first line of your post is ridiculous. There are more than two principal geographic regions in the subcontinent. Indus valley, Ganga Valley and Himalayas in the north and the Deccan plateau in the south among others. And if you have li'l knowledge of history you will know that there are numerous states other than three you mentioned that ruled large parts of both Indus and Ganges valleys like Gupta empire, Pala empire, Delhi sultanates etc. Furthermore Robert D. Kaplan is not a historian. Looks like you are not being able to find historical sources. Historical sources please...

He does not have to indicate that the landmass covering Pakistan about which he is referring to, is over 9000 years old. It is already a proven fact. Mehrgarh, excavated by the French archeologists in 1974, is over 9000 years old city which is located between the cities of Quetta and Sibi in Balochistan.

Robert Kaplan is a geography expert and a geopolitical analyst. The era of history that we are talking about, these two were the principle geographic regions. However, the aim of mentioning this geographical distinction was to highlight the fact that the landmass occupied by Pakistan was a separate geographic and political entity, distinctly different from India and not India’s geography.

The empires that you are referring to ruled only a part of the IVC landmass and not the complete landmass itself to govern the two separate regions as one political entity. This has not happened except during the Mauryan, Muslim and British rules. Kushan Empire also rose from eastern Afghanistan and conquered parts of Indus and Gangetic plains, though could not join the two regions completely as one political unit.

You quoted Encyclopedia Britannica as if it is a book which comprises of historical analyses. I didn’t object to it. But you object to Robert Kaplan who is a world famous geopolitical analyst and a geographic expert.

This is all red herring. Because some of you are not satisfied with the two nation theory as it was propagated and resulted in the creation of your country (formerly West Pakistan, the smaller of the two wings).

The TNT was very cleat that your history starts with the invader MBQ who pludered, raped and perpetrated genocides in your region. Just like the following barbaric uncivilized invaders.

And yes, the parts of India that were more influenced by Buddhism (part of the Dharmic family) were more impacted by the barbaric invaders as they could not fight back due to their pacifist ideology.

Here is how I look at this thread and your arguments. It is not an argument between you and us, it is primarily you trying to come to grips with who you are. We have no need to play any role here, it is evolution of your own identity from a purely Islamic one to something beyond that. This is what you are struggling with and the outbursts here reflect that confusion and denial.



It is clear which stage you are at...

Also check my reply below.



It is not about showing pride in your pre-Islamic past. It is about the compulsive need to deny it actively, denigrate it and trying to change your history by claiming to be descended from invaders like many Pakistanis do.

Let me share some quotes here.




Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

I have reproduced some extracts, try and read the full article.



Another one about the identity issue that many Muslim converts need to deal with and that we see driving this thread.

“Islam is in its origins an Arab religion. Everyone not an Arab who is a Muslim is a convert. Islam is not simply a matter of conscience or private belief. It makes imperial demands. A convert’s worldview alters. His holy places are in Arab lands; his language is Arabic. His idea of history alters. He rejects his own; he becomes, whether he likes it or not, a part of the Arab story. The convert has to turn away from everything that is his. The disturbance for societies is immense, and even after a thousand years can remain unresolved; the turning away has to be done again and again. People develop fantasies about who and what they are; and in the Islam of the converted countries there is an element of neurosis and nihilism. These countries can be easily set on the boil.”

You are free to deny it all. I couldn't care less as I don't think we have anything to do with Pakistan after partition.

Whatever we did or didn't share before partition, we share nothing with you now. It is not because we have anything against you, it is just that we don't share your worldview and want to have nothing to do with it.



Pakistan - Photo Gallery - National Geographic Magazine

It is in trying to match the two incompatible civilizations across the Margalla pass that you see a lot of the confusion and identity crisis coming in.

We are discussing history here and your response is at best a tangential rhetoric. Please quote historical facts which can prove your point while remaining within the topical ambiance. Quote history of various regions of Pakistan where Indian Hindu religion was in majority with appropriate references. Indians hide behind the skirt by quoting broad based Hindu religion which includes Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism, Shaivism etc etc as sub-sets of Hinduism, which they are not. The people who practice these religions strongly object to such categorization and claim that they are not part of broad based Hinduism or its sub-sects.

at title - I guess it means since 1947/

Nope. It doesn't mean that.

 

[Nassr]

Nassr Saab

The Term Mlechcha exists since a much longer time before Islam happened,so u can be angry is someone called u Mlechcha but the term was not invented to insult muslims or for that matter anyone else.

Hindu Dharmic identities are a reality,and the existence of all the so called religions within one fold is also a reality.Only abrahamic religions have a problem and the reasons are obvious and long known.

so,please dont make others look at the world with your narrow prism and funny fake stories and adam and eve fundaes like RangerPak does.

Meluha & IVC are realities to the extent of the excavations,suppose there was something else which got destroyed,or some evidence which couldn't survive.

We dont look into such possibillities and even if some Aryan Invasion did take place,it happened so long ago,that there are no heroes and villains now.

The term Mlechha may have existed since long. What I am referring to is its contemporary and current usage as a derogatory and a racist slur to indicate a Muslim.

The so-called Dharmic reality that you talk about only exists amongst the Indian Hindus. The Dharmic religions less Hinduism that you talk about, do not want to be included as part of a broad based Hindu religion and neither as a sub sect of Hinduism. You can not force your perceived reality on others.

The beliefs of different people may be different and this is a natural phenomenon. I believe that Adam landed from the heavens and Eve emanated from his side, and that is why women stand by their men. .

When the excavations reveal more, we would discuss more. Firstly, I do not believe in Aryan invasion theory and therefore no heroes came on horses and chariots from the Central Asian steppes to be remembered or to be forgotten. I however do believe that the IVC was not an Indian civilization and I do give out my reasons for saying this.

yeah but they are super intelligent,they make missiles and they are highly educated.

You may use a fork and toilet paper,but that doesn't make u anything.

where r u from?

u insult village culture,i dont think u can come from a agrarian punjabi background.

Why are you against the Punjabis. Some of these poor blokes live in Indian Punjab and Haryana as well.

 

[Airboss786]

yeah but they are super intelligent,they make missiles and they are highly educated.

You may use a fork and toilet paper,but that doesn't make u anything.

where r u from?

u insult village culture,i dont think u can come from a agrarian punjabi background.

Well, my mere statement was referring to the fact that I see no difference in a Brahmin vs. the Untouchable and/or other casts!!!! Why is that?! So how do you distinguish between them?!Physically they all look the same!
Furthermore, if they were so 'super intelligent' as you so 'aptly profess' don't you think their 'logic' i.e. 'super intelligence', would dictate that how come more than half their population is 'defecating' out in the open. Hence ruining the environment.
I won't go further, (amongst other things) about the 'Rape Epidemic' prevalent in your 'Incredibly Crappy India'!

 

[Nassr]

Nope. Their civilization and culture is limited to wiping their behind with odd number of stones after doing the deed.

Because that is the final and perfect example to follow. It has been made mandatory for them.

It is really funny, what this identity crisis makes some people do...

The identity crisis is somehow embedded in the Indians where they claim an identity which is not theirs in the first place. This particular crisis occurred after 1947 when the so-called raison-detre of their earliest existence, the IVC, was left in Pakistan. Nehru sanctioned money very early after the independence to find IVC sites in Gujarat, Rajasthan and Punjab to continue maintaining a farce of an age old identity. Later when the Indian Constitution was being written, Sikhs, Jains and Buddhists were declared sub-sects of broad Hindu religion, which Nehru wrote in his own book was not a religion in the first place. Later the Dharma was given a new meaning of being Dharmic, Indic and Hindutva. Surprising as it has been, instead of identifying who Indians as a nation were and are, they continued harping on the farce that IVC is the basis of Indian civilization.

The identity crisis which you think Pakistanis are facing is basically a figment of your imagination. It is the Indians who primarily have an identity crisis because as the horizon disappears on Indian landmass after every 25 miles or so, a new identity, a new culture and a new religion emerges and India finds it hard to provide a unified identity to the divergent landmass and its differing people.

Pakistan has an identity and it is embedded in over 9000 years of known history.

 

[bronxbull]

Well, my mere statement was referring to the fact that I see no difference in a Brahmin vs. the Untouchable and/or other casts!!!! Why is that?! So how do you distinguish between them?!Physically they all look the same!
Furthermore, if they were so 'super intelligent' as you so 'aptly profess' don't you think their 'logic' i.e. 'super intelligence', would dictate that how come more than half their population is 'defecating' out in the open. Hence ruining the environment.
I won't go further, (amongst other things) about the 'Rape Epidemic' prevalent in your 'Incredibly Crappy India'!

have u ever been to a village dumbass?

do u know how solid waste gets disposed?

do u know how many industrialized countries dispose their waste in third world countries and pay to do so?

Defecating in the open in a village is much better than building drainage systems which pollutes groundwater.

Do you know where they crap in the villages,in the backyards filled with trees,bushes n shrubs.

You halfwit,go ask any environmental engineer who is building stormwater drains and how hard it is for them to design efefctive drainage systems.

How is it that people in the villages are healthier,stronger and fitter than the city bred ones.

The crap is eaten by smaller animals and such and more often than not they crap over leaves and such and a pit is dug and used to make manure.

u should be worried about eating steroid boosted broiler chicken before worrying about these things.

The term Mlechha may have existed since long. What I am referring to is its contemporary and current usage as a derogatory and a racist slur to indicate a Muslim.

The so-called Dharmic reality that you talk about only exists amongst the Indian Hindus. The Dharmic religions less Hinduism that you talk about, do not want to be included as part of a broad based Hindu religion and neither as a sub sect of Hinduism. You can not force your perceived reality on others.

The beliefs of different people may be different and this is a natural phenomenon. I believe that Adam landed from the heavens and Eve emanated from his side, and that is why women stand by their men. .

When the excavations reveal more, we would discuss more. Firstly, I do not believe in Aryan invasion theory and therefore no heroes came on horses and chariots from the Central Asian steppes to be remembered or to be forgotten. I however do believe that the IVC was not an Indian civilization and I do give out my reasons for saying this.



Why are you against the Punjabis. Some of these poor blokes live in Indian Punjab and Haryana as well.

I am not against Punjabis.

Your beliefs are yours,i dont debate them and you have every right to believe in them but the point here is IVC or anything related is as much related to India.

9000 years is too long,pakistan concept is less than 100 years old and thats the age of the construct.

 

[Airboss786]

have u ever been to a village dumbass?

do u know how solid waste gets disposed?

do u know how many industrialized countries dispose their waste in third world countries and pay to do so?

Defecating in the open in a village is much better than building drainage systems which pollutes groundwater.

Do you know where they crap in the villages,in the backyards filled with trees,bushes n shrubs.

You halfwit,go ask any environmental engineer who is building stormwater drains and how hard it is for them to design efefctive drainage systems.

How is it that people in the villages are healthier,stronger and fitter than the city bred ones.

The crap is eaten by smaller animals and such and more often than not they crap over leaves and such and a pit is dug and used to make manure.

u should be worried about eating steroid boosted broiler chicken before worrying about these things.

Dumb ***, Head Shakin', Openly Defecating Injin, you definitely have a comprehension problem!
Moron, go back & R E A D again what I asked!
Hint: I was asking about your 'Super Smart Brahmins VS the other Caste folks! How do they look different?!

See folks, this is what happens when you openly defecate & pollute the environment!
You (injins) loose the ability to focus & answer the question being asked! LOL!




I am not against Punjabis.

Your beliefs are yours,i dont debate them and you have every right to believe in them but the point here is IVC or anything related is as much related to India.

9000 years is too long,pakistan concept is less than 100 years old and thats the age of the construct.

 

[bronxbull]

Oye retard,

in a village with more space n less people u dont pollute by open defecation,u do so when u do it in a city and brahmins dont do that cities.

And u were insulting the brahmins,thats why i mentioned they are super intelligent.

Untouchables get enough oppurtunities in Indis much more that what your waderas n chaudaries allow in pakistan.

 

[Vinod2070]

We are discussing history here and your response is at best a tangential rhetoric. Please quote historical facts which can prove your point while remaining within the topical ambiance. Quote history of various regions of Pakistan where Indian Hindu religion was in majority with appropriate references. Indians hide behind the skirt by quoting broad based Hindu religion which includes Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism, Shaivism etc etc as sub-sets of Hinduism, which they are not. The people who practice these religions strongly object to such categorization and claim that they are not part of broad based Hinduism or its sub-sects.

None of this has anything to do with Islam which is the very basis of the existence of West Pakistan.

This is not about history but a certain interpretaion of history that some people like you want to propagate. I am going to the very heart of the issue. Your need for an identity beyond Islam and two nation theory.

And being at the stage you are, it can only come by denying that it was a shared history. You have a compulsive need to expropriate it exclusively despite all evidence. There have been others before you on this forum and there will be others after you.

The arguments are the same down to the last comma and full stop.

And they are all quite shallow.

The identity crisis is somehow embedded in the Indians where they claim an identity which is not theirs in the first place. This particular crisis occurred after 1947 when the so-called raison-detre of their earliest existence, the IVC, was left in Pakistan. Nehru sanctioned money very early after the independence to find IVC sites in Gujarat, Rajasthan and Punjab to continue maintaining a farce of an age old identity. Later when the Indian Constitution was being written, Sikhs, Jains and Buddhists were declared sub-sects of broad Hindu religion, which Nehru wrote in his own book was not a religion in the first place. Later the Dharma was given a new meaning of being Dharmic, Indic and Hindutva. Surprising as it has been, instead of identifying who Indians as a nation were and are, they continued harping on the farce that IVC is the basis of Indian civilization.

The identity crisis which you think Pakistanis are facing is basically a figment of your imagination. It is the Indians who primarily have an identity crisis because as the horizon disappears on Indian landmass after every 25 miles or so, a new identity, a new culture and a new religion emerges and India finds it hard to provide a unified identity to the divergent landmass and its differing people.

Pakistan has an identity and it is embedded in over 9000 years of known history.

You are again trying to talk about Geography while the geography of Pakistan is merely an accident. It is about the ideology of two nation theory based on Islam and MBQ being the first Pakistani.

IVC was discovered just 100 years back. Indian civilization is thousands of years old. The Vedas, Ramayana, Mahabharata, Puranas, Vedanta... these are thousands of year old and Indian identity is not based on the IVC exclusively. It was only a slap on the face of some Europeans who felt that they somehow had a monopoly on civilization but Indian identity is not based on IVC at all.

While people with identity crisis like you need to latch on to the wrongly named IVC just because the first two sites happened to found at certain locations. IVC had nothing to do with Islam and therefor with anyone who believes in the two nation theory based exclusively on Islam and calling their pre-Islamic past as Jahiliya.

 

[resin]

He does not have to indicate that the landmass covering Pakistan about which he is referring to, is over 9000 years old. It is already a proven fact. Mehrgarh, excavated by the French archeologists in 1974, is over 9000 years old city which is located between the cities of Quetta and Sibi in Balochistan.

Robert Kaplan is a geography expert and a geopolitical analyst. The era of history that we are talking about, these two were the principle geographic regions. However, the aim of mentioning this geographical distinction was to highlight the fact that the landmass occupied by Pakistan was a separate geographic and political entity, distinctly different from India and not India’s geography.

The empires that you are referring to ruled only a part of the IVC landmass and not the complete landmass itself to govern the two separate regions as one political entity. This has not happened except during the Mauryan, Muslim and British rules. Kushan Empire also rose from eastern Afghanistan and conquered parts of Indus and Gangetic plains, though could not join the two regions completely as one political unit.

You quoted Encyclopedia Britannica as if it is a book which comprises of historical analyses. I didn’t object to it. But you object to Robert Kaplan who is a world famous geopolitical analyst and a geographic expert.



We are discussing history here and your response is at best a tangential rhetoric. Please quote historical facts which can prove your point while remaining within the topical ambiance. Quote history of various regions of Pakistan where Indian Hindu religion was in majority with appropriate references. Indians hide behind the skirt by quoting broad based Hindu religion which includes Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism, Shaivism etc etc as sub-sets of Hinduism, which they are not. The people who practice these religions strongly object to such categorization and claim that they are not part of broad based Hinduism or its sub-sects.



Nope. It doesn't mean that.

before that there was no pakisatn.

 

[Nassr]

I am not against Punjabis.

Your beliefs are yours,i dont debate them and you have every right to believe in them but the point here is IVC or anything related is as much related to India.

9000 years is too long,pakistan concept is less than 100 years old and thats the age of the construct.

In that case how can India claim IVC, as India is also less than 100 years old.

None of this has anything to do with Islam which is the very basis of the existence of West Pakistan.

This is not about history but a certain interpretaion of history that some people like you want to propagate. I am going to the very heart of the issue. Your need for an identity beyond Islam and two nation theory.

And being at the stage you are, it can only come by denying that it was a shared history. You have a compulsive need to expropriate it exclusively despite all evidence. There have been others before you on this forum and there will be others after you.

The arguments are the same down to the last comma and full stop.

And they are all quite shallow.



You are again trying to talk about Geography while the geography of Pakistan is merely an accident. It is about the ideology of two nation theory based on Islam and MBQ being the first Pakistani.

IVC was discovered just 100 years back. Indian civilization is thousands of years old. The Vedas, Ramayana, Mahabharata, Puranas, Vedanta... these are thousands of year old and Indian identity is not based on the IVC exclusively. It was only a slap on the face of some Europeans who felt that they somehow had a monopoly on civilization but Indian identity is not based on IVC at all.

While people with identity crisis like you need to latch on to the wrongly named IVC just because the first two sites happened to found at certain locations. IVC had nothing to do with Islam and therefor with anyone who believes in the two nation theory based exclusively on Islam and calling their pre-Islamic past as Jahiliya.

First of all, religion was not the only basis of creation of Pakistan. There were many other factors which were as important and highlighting only religion as the basis of Two Nation Theory is a narrow view which some Pakistanis and majority of Indian Hindus believe:

Religious differences
Governing differences
Civilizational differences
Cultural differences
Societal/Social differences
Economic differences
Political differences

And while you Indians accuse us Pakistanis of using religion as the only basis of Two Nation Theory, you do the same and use your own religious scriptures as authority to prove your identity. The example is very clear from your own statement. You say the while the IVC was discovered only 100 years ago, the Vedas, Ramayana, Mahabharata, Puranas, Vedanta... these are thousands of year old and Indian identity is not based on the IVC exclusively. What are these books that you are talking about – these are your religious scriptures which you base your identity on. You accuse Pakistanis to have used religion to highlight the Two nation Theory – you are also using religion to identify your identity and also geography.

There are many Indian Hindus who state that Rig Veda and other Vedas are words of God and do not represent any history. Yet most of you cite these religious scriptures to highlight India’s history and India’s geography.

When Indians accuse us that Mohammad Bin Qasim is perceived as the first Pakistani, the Indians also use their religious scriptures to outline their history and their civilization and the raison-detre of India’s existence. Get over your own demons before you have the right to accuse others of doing the same.

To prove the fact that IVC is a Pakistani heritage, religion is not used as the reason. It is the history supported by archeology and geography which is used to bring out the facts. Contrarily, Indians use religion and religious scriptures to lay their claim.

before that there was no pakisatn.

There was no Republic of India as well.

 

[bronxbull]

Because Indians are Pagans and Ever since arabs invaded Sindh,we can't say for sure if the native population survived.