Sikh man gunned down in Peshawar

[KingMamba]

a non muslim is praying for non muslim for jannat @Multani whats the big deal ?

Quite the counter I must admit.

Do not generalize, many sikhs have fled to Punjab after Taliban. Before that they had no problem in FATA/KPK. Punjab is safest place for sikhs in Pakistan.

where did sikhs in Punjab said they had problem? Provide source or shut the **** up.

Truth AFAIK Sikhs who have fled have gone into Punjab not the other way around. Mostly around Panja Sahib.

 

[wolfschanzze]

we don't have any obsession with Indian Muslims
neither we are interested in feeding them
unlike you guys who feel unconditional love for Pakistani Hindus and other minorities

there are almost 1 crore non Muslim live in Pakistan
why don't you take all that one crore people to your countries if you claim that they r Indian citizens
our one crore population will decrease.. u love will be fulfilled
win win situation for both of us

and if you are unable to feed them or cant take them in your country
and you unconditional love is only limited to show sympathy
then shut the F up n get the hell out of here

TAKE CARE OF YOUR MINORITIES RATHER THAN CRYING FOR OURS
YOU COUNTRY HAS THE MOST EMBRACING AND DISGRACEFUL RECORD OF STATE SPONSORED MASSACRE AND GENOCIDE OF MINORITIES LIKE GUJARAT AND ORISA etc

Why should we take care of muslims? when you are being a thekedaar of islam it is your duty to take care of muslims,we will take care of non-muslims.
Bharat is hindu land, so naturally hindus,sikhs,jains,parsis,buddhists are welcome.
you on the other hand can take Indian muslims in exchange since you are guardian of islam.

 

[Multani]

This is what you said, "so ahmadis believe Sikhs will enter paradise? they say sunnis will never enter paradise for rejecting Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadyani. They believe Sunnis are kafir."

Yes anyone who rejects Mirza sahib (as) purposely even while fully understanding his claim is committing kufr by rejecting a part of faith. That does not mean however that they are non muslim. They are still muslims, but their kufr is the same as that of the jews in regards to Isa (as). Even now tell me, if according to your beliefs, Isa (as) returns from heaven, what will be the status of the one who rejects him? Is he not going to be committing kufr by rejecting a God's prophet?

This does not mean that we are stating what I have highlighted in your post. Ahmadis say and believe that at the end of the day, it is up to Allah Ta'ala to decide who goes to heaven or hell. But the Qur'an states that anyone who believes in the oneness of God and does good deeds will be rewarded. Please do not put your words in Ahmadis' mouths.



Yes I have read that book about a dozen times and it still does not say what you are stating, "they say sunnis will never enter paradise for rejecting Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadyani". This is said by you and not Ahmadis as explained in my previous comment.

The pages in that book clearly say Sunnis are kafir for rejecting Mirza sahib. There is no doubt about what Mirza Bashiruddin is saying. Its simple English, including its context. Anyone can see. There is no possibilities of interpretation here.

And what you are saying is that they are still not non-Muslim. You are contradicting Mirza Bashiruddin.

 

[Multani]

This does not mean that we are stating what I have highlighted in your post. Ahmadis say and believe that at the end of the day, it is up to Allah Ta'ala to decide who goes to heaven or hell. But the Qur'an states that anyone who believes in the oneness of God and does good deeds will be rewarded. Please do not put your words in Ahmadis' mouths.
.

So, a person who has rejected Mirza Ghulam Ahmad sahib can enter paradise according to you at the end of the day.

Mirza Bashiruddin clearly states that he/she is a Kafir. What is Mirza Bashiruddin's definition of a Kafir and his/her abode?

 

[Pakistani E]

The pages in that book clearly say Sunnis are kafir for rejecting Mirza sahib. There is no doubt about what Mirza Bashiruddin is saying. Its simple English, including its context. Anyone can see. There is no possibilities of interpretation here.

And what you are saying is that they are still not non-Muslim. You are contradicting Mirza Bashiruddin.

Well for one, you clearly stated that Ahmadis' say that Sunnis can never go to heaven and I reject that as no Ahmadi has ever said that. As for people who reject Mirza Sahib (as), then yes they are committing kufr. And yes, Ahmadi beliefs have also been that there are different standards of Kufr.

But you seems to have jumped on one single sentence from one single book and have not clearly looked at the beliefs of Ahmadis. So let me explain to you, because the question you are bringing up is not a new one. In 1974, the assembly that declared us kafir kept repeating the same thing, that Ahmadis declared non Ahmadis kafir etc.

The Ahmadiyya point of view on this matter can be summed up by two phrases used by Imam Raghib in his Mufridaat
.
Doon-ul-Eeman: Those Muslims who are at a lower standard of faith; i.e., they are Muslims because they profess to be Muslims.

Fawq-ul-Eeman: Those Muslims who are at a distinguished standard of faith. i.e., they try to fulfill all of the criteria set in the Quran to attain spiritual distinction in the eyes of God.

Kufr (denial) has many degrees. A person can commit kufr though their actions while still professing to be a Muslim. For example, someone who does not offer his daily prayers becomes a Kafir. Sahih Muslim, the second most authentic book of Hadith has a chapter on this topic. But does this mean that all those who miss a single prayer in their life become Non-Muslims?

Imam Ibn-e-Taimiyyah, a famous Jurist who is held in high esteem by most orthodox Sunni sects, also held the same belief. The following statement from his book was quoted by the Khalifatul Masih III in his statement during the proceedings in the assembly:

"One type of Kufr causes the person to be removed from the Millat (Nation/Ummah) whereas the other type of Kufr does not." (Kitab-ul-Eeman, page 171).

Our beliefs are the same. Anyone who professes to be a Muslim, we accept that they are Muslims but as I have stated above, that does not mean they are not committing Kufr.

The pages in that book clearly say Sunnis are kafir for rejecting Mirza sahib. There is no doubt about what Mirza Bashiruddin is saying. Its simple English, including its context. Anyone can see. There is no possibilities of interpretation here.

And what you are saying is that they are still not non-Muslim. You are contradicting Mirza Bashiruddin.

Well for one, you clearly stated that Ahmadis' say that Sunnis can never go to heaven and I reject that as no Ahmadi has ever said that. As for people who reject Mirza Sahib (as), then yes they are committing kufr. And yes, Ahmadi beliefs have also been that there are different standards of Kufr.

But you seems to have jumped on one single sentence from one single book and have not clearly looked at the beliefs of Ahmadis. So let me explain to you, because the question you are bringing up is not a new one. In 1974, the assembly that declared us kafir kept repeating the same thing, that Ahmadis declared non Ahmadis kafir etc.

The Ahmadiyya point of view on this matter can be summed up by two phrases used by Imam Raghib in his Mufridaat
.
Doon-ul-Eeman: Those Muslims who are at a lower standard of faith; i.e., they are Muslims because they profess to be Muslims.

Fawq-ul-Eeman: Those Muslims who are at a distinguished standard of faith. i.e., they try to fulfill all of the criteria set in the Quran to attain spiritual distinction in the eyes of God.

Kufr (denial) has many degrees. A person can commit kufr though their actions while still professing to be a Muslim. For example, someone who does not offer his daily prayers becomes a Kafir. Sahih Muslim, the second most authentic book of Hadith has a chapter on this topic. But does this mean that all those who miss a single prayer in their life become Non-Muslims?

Imam Ibn-e-Taimiyyah, a famous Jurist who is held in high esteem by most orthodox Sunni sects, also held the same belief. The following statement from his book was quoted by the Khalifatul Masih III in his statement during the proceedings in the assembly:

"One type of Kufr causes the person to be removed from the Millat (Nation/Ummah) whereas the other type of Kufr does not." (Kitab-ul-Eeman, page 171).

Our beliefs are the same. Anyone who professes to be a Muslim, we accept that they are Muslims but as I have stated above, that does not mean they are not committing Kufr.

 

[Multani]

Well for one, you clearly stated that Ahmadis' say that Sunnis can never go to heaven and I reject that as no Ahmadi has ever said that. As for people who reject Mirza Sahib (as), then yes they are committing kufr. And yes, Ahmadi beliefs have also been that there are different standards of Kufr.

But you seems to have jumped on one single sentence from one single book and have not clearly looked at the beliefs of Ahmadis. So let me explain to you,

Our beliefs are the same. Anyone who professes to be a Muslim, we accept that they are Muslims but as I have stated above, that does not mean they are not committing Kufr.

You are not stating the truth Pakistani Exile. Because Mirza Bashiruddin's book is very clear why they are kafir as he goes on to explain it in detail pages 60 onwards.

I was earlier using 2 pages in one book [ of Mirza Bashiruddin, the second caliph of the Ahmadis, not a small personality, but a major Ahmadi personality and leader, if not the second greatest ]

I havnt used other references yet, but the above book by Mirza Bashiruddin [ the second most top Ahmadi leader ?] is enough.

He clearly states that those Muslims who reject Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadyani are Kafir. Pages 60 onwards, Mirza Bashiruddin is so strong in his explanation of them being Kafir, that he uses the word Kafir again and again, emphasizing the seriousness, mentioning the conditions. This is what he says will be the abode of the "kafir"

I may however add that in my opinion

Kufr arises from a denial of one or more of the

fundamental articles of religion, not because such a


denial makes a man the object of unending


punishment, but because the denial makes him guilty

of rebellion against God and leads to the extinction of

his spiritual life.

He then goes on to clarify what a Kafir is

it

cannot but class as kafir such as fail to accept any of

the Prophets, even though such failure may be due to

their want of information concerning him. In the latter

case, they will not, of course, be the objects of Divine

punishment. The denial would be due to causes

altogether beyond their control. It is in accordance

with the same principle that Muslims have so long

with one accord designated as kuffar all those who

have not accepted the faith of Islam, without taking

into consideration the question whether or not such

failure is occasioned by want of adequate information

concerning the Holy Prophetsa. And the doctor is yet

to be born who will class in the category of Muslims

the Esquimaux of the North Pole, the Red Indians of

America, the Hottentots of Africa or the Maoris of

Australia, or those millions of Christians, who living

in central Europe or in other out of the way places

have not yet heard anything regarding the teachings of

the Holy Prophetsa.

Such are my convictions.

He is using the common definition of a Kafir and his/her punishment.

 

[dil_dil]

Well for one, you clearly stated that Ahmadis' say that Sunnis can never go to heaven and I reject that as no Ahmadi has ever said that. As for people who reject Mirza Sahib (as), then yes they are committing kufr. And yes, Ahmadi beliefs have also been that there are different standards of Kufr.
fr.

Though i agree with Ahmedis should be given full rights as "Muslims", and change law which declared them non-muslims. But we certainly don't want any more British agents to be worshipped as prophet. Other wise every week there will be new prophet born who will basically be agent of foreign country. This time around he can be working for Hindus for exemple.

Do you want that?

 

[Multani]

W

Imam Ibn-e-Taimiyyah, a famous Jurist who is held in high esteem by most orthodox Sunni sects,.

not that ibn taymiyya has anything to do with this discussion but the four schools of Sunni Islam consider him to be one of the worst innovators in the 14th century

 

[Multani]

Our beliefs are the same. Anyone who professes to be a Muslim, we accept that they are Muslims but as I have stated above, that does not mean they are not committing Kufr.

Mirza Bashiruddin further elaborates on what kind of kafir they are. Reminds me of sarkari mullahs.

This is on page 146 of the same book "Truth about the split" by the second caliph

Regarding the main subject of my article, I wrote

that as we believed the Promised Messiahas to be one

of the Prophets of God, we could not possibly regard

his deniers as Muslims. It is true we did not consider

them to be kafir billah, (deniers of God), but how

could we doubt that, they were kafir-bil-ma’mur

(deniers of a God’s Messenger)?

As you can see Mirza Bashiruddin is using the same Kafir definition as used by the opponents of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani. He gives the example of Abdul Hakim of Patiala, whom he calls an apostate [ murtad ]

Now, what is the Ahmadi definition of a murtad?

 

[PunjabLion]

Why should we take care of muslims? when you are being a thekedaar of islam it is your duty to take care of muslims,we will take care of non-muslims.
Bharat is hindu land, so naturally hindus,sikhs,jains,parsis,buddhists are welcome.
you on the other hand can take Indian muslims in exchange since you are guardian of islam.

we r not the guardian of Muslims or Theravada of Islam
we are only concern about our own country
by the grace of GOD almighty there are 57 Muslims countries unlike India n Israel
who are the only existing Hindu and Jewish country in the world hence it acts as the guardian of all Hindus and Jews receptively

and let me make sure one thing clear
i told you one thing clearly ....we r not interested in feeding Indian Muslims because we have nothing to do with them
our resources are limited and only meant for Pakistanis
Indian Muslims r yours n modis problem
similarly our minorities are strictly our issue and there is no need for any cow piss drinker to poke its dirty n stinky nose in it

Bharat is hindu land, so naturally hindus,sikhs,jains,parsis,buddhists are welcome.

means christians and muslims are not welcomed???

btw jain parsi sikhism are seperate religons not sectors of hinduism that you proudly claim to be part of hindu land
remember the big reason y khalistanis beat the hell out of hindu police n army is that their demand was to call sikh a seperate religon. its pity they dont have their own sikh marriage act ..in india they got married under hindu marriage act

 

[Spring Onion]

bi request all the miscreants on this thread to take your shity L measuring to some other thread let us do some good to my Sikh fellows of my city .

i hope all of you heard me

 

[wolfschanzze]

we r not the guardian of Muslims or Theravada of Islam
we are only concern about our own country
by the grace of GOD almighty there are 57 Muslims countries unlike India n Israel
who are the only existing Hindu and Jewish country in the world hence it acts as the guardian of all Hindus and Jews receptively

and let me make sure one thing clear
i told you one thing clearly ....we r not interested in feeding Indian Muslims because we have nothing to do with them
our resources are limited and only meant for Pakistanis
Indian Muslims r yours n modis problem
similarly our minorities are strictly our issue and there is no need for any cow piss drinker to poke its dirty n stinky nose in it


means christians and muslims are not welcomed???

btw jain parsi sikhism are seperate religons not sectors of hinduism that you proudly claim to be part of hindu land
remember the big reason y khalistanis beat the hell out of hindu police n army is that their demand was to call sikh a seperate religon. its pity they dont have their own sikh marriage act ..in india they got married under hindu marriage act

Didnt i say dharmic faiths are welcome, When you have nothing to do with Indian Muslims then stop chest beating and poking nose in Indian matters.
Hindus and other dharmic faiths can always come and settle in India.Your minorities are fleeing your nation out of persecution and coming to India for asylum.

 

[chhota bheem]

Why should we take care of muslims? when you are being a thekedaar of islam it is your duty to take care of muslims,we will take care of non-muslims.
Bharat is hindu land, so naturally hindus,sikhs,jains,parsis,buddhists are welcome.
you on the other hand can take Indian muslims in exchange since you are guardian of islam.

Who the hell told you INDIA is for hindu's only.its as much as mine as yours.

Country and religion dont go together.

 

[ice_man]

Who the hell told you INDIA is for hindu's only.its as much as mine as yours.

Country and religion dont go together.

let's see christian massacre in ORISSA goes unpunished, Gujrat massacre "HERO" becomes the Prmie minister. Sikh massacre of golden temple is brushed under the carpet, babri masjid demolition again goes unpunished.

ban on adhan and cow slaughter is imposed in some states.

now tell me how can india ever claim to be religiously tolerant with such black spots on it?

 

[wolfschanzze]

Who the hell told you INDIA is for hindu's only.its as much as mine as yours.

Country and religion dont go together.

i said dharmic faiths,what is your problem with that?

let's see christian massacre in ORISSA goes unpunished, Gujrat massacre "HERO" becomes the Prmie minister. Sikh massacre of golden temple is brushed under the carpet, babri masjid demolition again goes unpunished.

ban on adhan and cow slaughter is imposed in some states.

now tell me how can india ever claim to be religiously tolerant with such black spots on it?

Wow islamic nation teaching tolerance to india? great!