Siachen: 30 years of Indian Occupation

[MM_Haider]

Not a sudden commando raid by a small unit of special forces - they train for lightning strikes. Satellites can only pick up large troop movements or concentrations, unless they are specifically looking for something.

In 1987, when Brigadier Musharaff led a commando assault on key peaks in Siachen (after training extensively with US special forces), what thwarted that attempt was intercepted communications between one soldier in that unit to his wife, about something he wanted her to send him. Analysing that info and correlating it with a few others enabled Indians to anticipate the attack and fortify the positions. But we cannot rely on such luck every time.




I know the PDF that you are copy-pasting that from, it shows up on the first page of google search results. If you google around, you will find opinions on both sides. The fact is that the Indian army has decided to side with people who say that it offers tactical and strategic benefits to us. We can keep copy-pasting articles all day supporting our own POV. But the fact that the military has picked one of those POVs as valid should lend it credibility.

Now you want to base your argument on 'Appeal to Authority'... God bless you bro!

The news you quoted only disproves your own point. We did not have to divert troops from the west or Siachen to put them on the east. They came from our reserves and non deployed formations. Pumping troops where needed is not as issue for India. Believe me, there is no dearth of troops.

This is called clutching at straws.

Excerpt from the same news:

Sources said Indian Army is expected to raise the new Corps’ headquarters at Panagarh in Indian state of West Bengal along with two divisions in Bihar and Assam and other units from Ladakh in Indian administered Kashmir to Arunachal Pradesh.

Does it ring a bell?

 

[janon]

Now you want to base your argument on 'Appeal to Authority'... God bless you bro!

There is nothhing wrong in making an appeal to legitimate authority. Appeal to invalid authority is a logical fallacy. For example, stating that since Newton believed in angles they must be real, is a falacy. Stating that climate change is a myth because a computer scentist said so and he is a smart person, is also a fallacy. But stating that the entire medical community believes that vaccinations prevent diseases or that the HIV virus causes AIDS, and peer reviewed journals support that, and therefore I choose to believe it, is rightful argument from authority.

On most contentious issues (by definition) you can find opinions on both sides. In such cases, a layman tends to accept what the professionals agree upon. There is appeal to legitimate authority, and then there is the appeal to false authority, of which the latter is a fallacy.

From Rational Wiki:

An argument from authority, when correctly applied, can be a valid and sometimes essential part of an argument that requests judgement or input from a qualified or expert source. The operation of the common law would be impossible without it, for example.

Frequently, however, it is a logical fallacy consisting of an appeal to authority, but on a topic outside of the authority's expertise[2] or on a topic on which the authority is not disinterested (aka. the authority is biased). Almost any subject has an authority on every side of the argument, even where there is generally agreed to be no argument

From Princeton:

...arguments from authority are an important part of informal logic. Since we cannot have expert knowledge of many subjects, we often rely on the judgments of those who do. There is no fallacy involved in simply arguing that the assertion made by an authority is true. The fallacy only arises when it is claimed or implied that the authority is infallible in principle and can hence be exempted from criticism.

Sources said Indian Army is expected to raise the new Corps’ headquarters at Panagarh in Indian state of West Bengal along with two divisions in Bihar and Assam and other units from Ladakh in Indian administered Kashmir to Arunachal Pradesh.

Does it ring a bell?

Not because of a dearth of troops, but because the troops in Ladakh and and Assam are already acclimatized and ready for mountain warfare. Those troops who leave those areas will be filled up by other troops from peacetime formation or reserves. Those places will not go unguarded. It is a peculiarity of mountain warfare that troops need time to acclimatize. So instead of rushing troops from the hinterland into the mountains in the east, we sent in already battle ready troops (ready for mountain warfare) from other mountainous regions where there was no imminent threat, and simultaneously sent unacclimatized troops to those parts.

 

[Elucid]

Not a sudden commando raid by a small unit of special forces - they train for lightning strikes. Satellites can only pick up large troop movements or concentrations, unless they are specifically looking for something.

In 1987, when Brigadier Musharaff led a commando assault on key peaks in Siachen (after training extensively with US special forces), what thwarted that attempt was intercepted communications between one soldier in that unit to his wife, about something he wanted her to send him. Analysing that info and correlating it with a few others enabled Indians to anticipate the attack and fortify the positions. But we cannot rely on such luck every time.

In that barren wasteland that offers no natural cover whats so ever, i say even special forces will be found out. Like in a desert. But anyway its India's dice to roll.

 

[Contrarian]

The economic cost of maintaining an infantry brigade group at Siachen to guard the desolate mountain passes and approaches leading to them from the western slopes of the Saltoro Ridge has been estimated to range between Rs 3-3.5 crore per day - Rs 1,000-1,200 crore annually.

anyways my actual point is not amount.. cost is high or meager.. it is being spent for nothing as far as India is concerned. thats the point.

Do you know how much that is ?
$250 million per year.

Do you even realize how insignificant it is to India?

1. Do you know India's military budget?
2. Do you know India's annual budget?

And it is being spent for a purpose. This $250 million ensures that Pakistani soldiers never put a step over Siachen glacier. This ensures that Siachen never becomes Pakistani territory.

 

[Black Widow]

In that barren wasteland that offers no natural cover whats so ever, i say even special forces will be found out. Like in a desert. But anyway its India's dice to roll.

Balochistan is also Barren wasteland.. Please give that to India.. We need it

 

[karan.1970]

It is a matter of aggression against the law and pride. The fact remains that Pakistan still has a tactical and Strategic advantage.

Yes Yes.. Sure.. !

 

[Elucid]

Balochistan is also Barren wasteland.. Please give that to India.. We need it

Where did i say barren wastelands should be given to India ?

 

[Black Widow]

Its not about crying.
Its about the great injustice that is done to Kashmir and Pakistan by the Indian Occupation.

Balochistan, Sindh and FATA must be merged to India. Pakistan should leave the claim ..

Where did i say barren wastelands should be given to India ?

Give it to India, What Pakistan will do with such baron Lands.. We will develop it..

 

[Elucid]

Balochistan, Sindh and FATA must be merged to India. Pakistan should leave the claim ..

You are in a hurry to merge political entities. Dont worry that will happen in the future when all the existing divisions will become a single harmonious union. That would be the end of countries as we know it.

Give it to India, What Pakistan will do with such baron Lands.. We will develop it..

Nothing can grow up there, no animal is capable of surviving there. How will India develop it ?

 

[Black Widow]

You are in a hurry to merge political entities. Dont worry that will happen in the future when all the existing divisions will become a single harmonious union. That would be the end of countries as we know it.

Nothing can grow up there, no animal is capable of surviving there. How will India develop it ?

We will put World Largest Solar Power there. Once energy comes , prosperity comes. I have more plan for Baloch brothers...

Can u please elaborate the "End of countries and single Harmonious union"?

 

[Elucid]

We will put World Largest Solar Power there. Once energy comes , prosperity comes. I have more plan for Baloch brothers...

Can u please elaborate the "End of countries and single Harmonious union"?

I was talking about Siachen and those mountains not balochistan.
It means the world will become a single country.

 

[MM_Haider]

There is nothhing wrong in making an appeal to legitimate authority. Appeal to invalid authority is a logical fallacy. For example, stating that since Newton believed in angles they must be real, is a falacy. Stating that climate change is a myth because a computer scentist said so and he is a smart person, is also a fallacy. But stating that the entire medical community believes that vaccinations prevent diseases or that the HIV virus causes AIDS, and peer reviewed journals support that, and therefore I choose to believe it, is rightful argument from authority.

On most contentious issues (by definition) you can find opinions on both sides. In such cases, a layman tends to accept what the professionals agree upon. There is appeal to legitimate authority, and then there is the appeal to false authority, of which the latter is a fallacy.

From Rational Wiki:




From Princeton:





Not because of a dearth of troops, but because the troops in Ladakh and and Assam are already acclimatized and ready for mountain warfare. Those troops who leave those areas will be filled up by other troops from peacetime formation or reserves. Those places will not go unguarded. It is a peculiarity of mountain warfare that troops need time to acclimatize. So instead of rushing troops from the hinterland into the mountains in the east, we sent in already battle ready troops (ready for mountain warfare) from other mountainous regions where there was no imminent threat, and simultaneously sent unacclimatized troops to those parts.

Instead of just saying the I copied that content from such and such google page doesn't make the authority false. there are certain arguments by Gurmeet Kanwal, who happens to be Senior Fellow of Centre for Air Power Studies, New Delhi. Also those arguments allude a reference to a book Siachen: Conflict Without End, by Lt Gen V. R. Raghavan (Retd.). How can you just apply epithet false Authority to them? In case you disagreed by this you were supposed to bring the counter narrative in front.

Regarding troops' deployment, I have made my point clear as it is normal to deploy the troops from somewhere to somewhere else.. readers can fully understand the absurdity of your claim as you are pulling arguments from here and there to just prove the statement that India doesn't need to relocate troops somewhere else.

 

[he-man]

Instead of just saying the I copied that content from such and such google page doesn't make the authority false. there are certain arguments by Gurmeet Kanwal, who happens to be Senior Fellow of Centre for Air Power Studies, New Delhi. Also those arguments allude a reference to a book Siachen: Conflict Without End, by Lt Gen V. R. Raghavan (Retd.). How can you just apply epithet false Authority to them? In case you disagreed by this you were supposed to bring the counter narrative in front.

Regarding troops' deployment, I have made my point clear as it is normal to deploy the troops from somewhere to somewhere else.. readers can fully understand the absurdity of your claim as you are pulling arguments from here and there to just prove the statement that India doesn't need to relocate troops somewhere else.

Chor na yaar.
We all are too rigid to accept what the other person says

 

[MM_Haider]

Chor na yaar.
We all are too rigid to accept what the other person says

kasam se..

 

[janon]

Instead of just saying the I copied that content from such and such google page doesn't make the authority false. there are certain arguments by Gurmeet Kanwal, who happens to be Senior Fellow of Centre for Air Power Studies, New Delhi. Also those arguments allude a reference to a book Siachen: Conflict Without End, by Lt Gen V. R. Raghavan (Retd.). How can you just apply epithet false Authority to them? In case you disagreed by this you were supposed to bring the counter narrative in front.

Are you willfully creating strawmen? I wasn't asserting that anybody you quoted is a false authority, but making the point that the argument from authority is perfectly valid, if proper authority is cited. You dismissed my post as being an "appeal to authority", and I was saying that that is not a criterion for dismissal, unless it is to false authority. My post about the argument from authority, and the post about your quoted passage were two different ones. I spoke about the validity of the argument from authority when you tried to dismiss my post on that basis. Don't confuse two different posts, whether willingly or inadvertently.

The professional opinion of the armed forces is much more authoritative than that of retired ones who head think tanks. The Indian army's stance is clear, that they have to occupy the glacier although that is one of the most difficult jobs in the world.

Chor na yaar.
We all are too rigid to accept what the other person says

I am not. If a proper, logical argument is presented, I will accept it. That is called intellectual integrity.