Should Pakistan Try to Lease a Turkish Type 209 Submarine?

[Rank]

har time maangtay na raha karoo kudh b kuch banaya karoo...

 

[Genghis khan1]

Sorry guy,I'm just out of topic but want to ask just one thing,what you gonna do with a nuclear sub? lol
Is there a submarine race held in the world,you gonna go triatlon?That souns nonsense.
If your sub can shoot sub-ground missiles thats fair enough.Nuclear subs sound cool but too noisy and expensive to keep.

Because Nuclear sub can go an sit anywhere in the open oceans of the world without running out of fuel and can unleash Nuclear hell on enemy on any continent. It's impossible to search every ocean of the world.

 

[war&peace]

Why not lease or even buy a few type 214 from Turkey for PNS. What are the hurdles?

 

[Oguzhan]

Because Nuclear sub can go an sit anywhere in the open oceans of the world without running out of fuel and can unleash Nuclear hell on enemy on any continent. It's impossible to search every ocean of the world.

Yea i know this but with a high maintanence cost.And what about wold wide strike capability for Pakistan? Just why.

 

[Genghis khan1]

Maintenance and cost should not be problem since Pakistan is running so many reactors already. Nuke sub completes Pakistan Nuclear triad and assures second strike capability. World wide reach of Nuclear sub will give Pakistan more leverage in the international geopolitics.

Yea i know this but with a high maintanence cost.And what about wold wide strike capability for Pakistan? Just why.

 

[Penguin]

Hell of stupidity type 209 not with AIP

"It is also possible to upgrade these submarines with the latest Air-independent propulsion (AIP) systems. The first ships to receive this upgrade were to be three ships of the Greek Poseidon class Type 209/1200 under the Neptune II upgrade program. They were to be upgraded by cutting the boat in half aft of the control room and adding a 6 m plug with an 120 kW Siemens AIP system to the ship. The program was canceled in 2009 due to cancellation of the Archimedes Project (Type 214), but not before Okeanos (S118) completed the upgrade"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_209_submarine

and its diving depth asking for death with Indian P 8 they are coffins

Type 209 is useless in our deep waters we need subs which can dive deeper than 300 feet

300 feet is about 91.44 meters. I don't know where you get the idea a Type 209 can dive only 90m...

Test depth: 500 metres (1,600 ft)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_209_submarine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_209_submarine#Technical_specifications

That's better than the Agosta 70's test depth:

• 300 m (980 ft) (France, Spain)
• 350 m (1,150 ft) (Pakistan)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agosta-class_submarine

And that of the Daphne, which has a test depth of 300 m (980 ft)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daphné-class_submarine

Kilo diving depth:

• Operational: 240 m (790 ft)
• Maximum: 300 m (980 ft)

Walrus class diving depth: >300 m (980 ft)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walrus-class_submarine

Type 212A Test depth: over 700 m (2,296 ft)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_212_submarine

Type 214 diving depth: 250m (400m theoretical)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_214_submarine

Nowegian navy Ula class: 200 m (656 ft)+
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ula-class_submarine

Test depth is the maximum depth at which a submarine is permitted to operate under normal peacetime circumstances, and is tested during sea trials. The test depth is set at two-thirds of the design depth for United States Navy submarines, while the Royal Navy sets test depth slightly deeper than half (4/7ths) of the design depth, and the German Navy sets it at exactly one-half of design depth.

Design depth is the nominal depth listed in the submarine's specifications. From it the designers calculate the thickness of the hull metal, the boat's displacement, and many other related factors. Since the designers incorporate margins of error in their calculations, crush depth of an actual vessel should be slightly deeper than its design depth.

The maximum operating depth (popularly called the never-exceed depth) is the maximum depth at which a submarine is allowed to operate under any (e.g. battle) conditions.

Crush depth, officially called collapse depth, is the submerged depth at which a submarine's hull will collapse due to pressure. This is normally calculated; however, it is not always accurate. Submarines from many nations in World War II reported being forced through crush depth, due to flooding or mechanical failure, only to have the water pumped out, or the failure repaired, and succeed in surfacing again.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine_depth_ratings

If u take F 22 and Acosta subs out entire PN is made of old junks and what a JDM our member created to Add another junk

Stop mentality of used items in such difficult warfare of 3 armed forces

Limited funds + limited willing suppliers, what else can I say....

 

[New World]

I believe Pakistan is the sole user of Agosta-90B, so the only 'old Agosta' you could possibly get would be Agosta-70, of which the French have decommissioned 4 and Spain 1. Only the Spanish boat is 3-4 years younger than the PN Agosta-70s. No Spanish boat - in service or decommissioned - is more than max 6 years younger than PN Agosta-70s. There is little point in persuing these boats.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agosta-class_submarine

sir, but A-90 was given with TOT and licence to export it as well... why more A-90s was not made?? @Rashid Mahmood

 

[Penguin]

sir, but A-90 was given with TOT and licence to export it as well... why more A-90s was not made?? @Rashid Mahmood

Lack of $?

Why haven't there been more F22P, since the fourth was constructed in Pakistan? It is not like PN doesn't need to replace ships.

 

[New World]

Lack of $?

Why haven't there been more F22P, since the fourth was constructed in Pakistan? It is not like PN doesn't need to replace ships.

if i'm not wrong in mid 2000s PN was in talks with germany to buy U-214 subs... So money was there..

 

[Penguin]

if i'm not wrong in mid 2000s PN was in talks with germany to buy U-214 subs... So money was there..

PNS/M Khalid (S137) - built in France by DCN Cherbourg, completed in 1999
PNS/M Saad (S138) - built in Pakistan with French assistance, completed in 2002
PNS/M Hamza (S139) - built in Pakistan, commissioned 14 August 2006
Note only the latter was completely built in Pakistan. At the time, plans called for a further three submarines of the class to all be built entirely in Pakistan. This never happened.

In mid-2006, the Navy announced its requirement of three new fast-attack submarines to replace the two Agosta-70 submarines and rebuild its submarine fleet— after retiring the four Daphne Class. Immediately, the French defence consortium, the DCN, offered its latest export design— the Marlin class submarine— which was based on the Scorpène class submarine, but would also use technology from the Barracuda nuclear attack submarine.
However, the Navy chose the Type 214 submarine, during the "IDEAS 2008 exhibition", the HDW director Walter Freitag told the media that: "The commercial contract has been finalized up to 95%. The first submarine would be delivered to the Pakistan Navy in 64 months after signing of the contract while the rest would be completed successively in 12 months".
However, in 2009, it was reported that the Navy had canceled its plans with HDW, the German government adjourned the deal and further deliberation lead the Navy to cancel the contract with HDW, while the German government seemed not-interested in transfering the submarine technology to Pakistan. However, the German government insisted that "a final decision should be made soon". In 2012, an undisclosed navy officials confirmed to media and news channels that the plan of acquiring German submarines has been scrapped, dismissed as the Navy is no longer interested in the German submarines.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_Navy#Submarines_of_the_Pakistan_Navy

Funny how all attention went to newer designs but additional Agosta 90Bs were apparently never considered.

 

[New World]

Funny how all attention went to newer designs but additional Agosta 90Bs were apparently never considered.

this is the very same question i have asked to senior members including @Rashid Mahmood but didn't get any replay..

any reason for not persuading further A-90s??
Is PN not happy with them??

@Penguin sir, i have a question which i want to ask you..

we have ToT on A-90 and licence to export it.. why A-90 was not offered to Thailand and Malaysia few years back..

 

[Penguin]

this is the very same question i have asked to senior members including @Rashid Mahmood but didn't get any replay..

any reason for not persuading further A-90s??
Is PN not happy with them??

@Penguin sir, i have a question which i want to ask you..

we have ToT on A-90 and licence to export it.. why A-90 was not offered to Thailand and Malaysia few years back..

As for the submarine adventures of Malaysia: IN 1997, two decommissioned Dutch boats, Zwaardvis and Tijgerhaai, were loaded onto a ship and transported to PSC-Naval Dockyard, Lumut, Malaysia in anticipation of purchase by the Malaysian Navy. However, the Malaysian Navy declined the offer and chose the French Scorpène class instead. The two ex-Dutch boats are still in Lumut awaiting a buyer and possible refurbishment. The two Scorpenes for Malasia were laid down in April of 2004 and April of 2005. They were built by DCNS in Cherbourg and Navantia in Cartagena, Spain (the fore section was built at DCNS and joined to the aft section, which was built by Navantia). They were launched October 2007, resp. October 2008 and commissioned January 2009 and December 2009

PNS Khalid was built entirely in France. PNS Saad was built in part in France and in part in Pakistan. PNS Hamza (S139) was the first to be built entirely in Pakistan. She commissioned 14 August 2006 (i.e. was laid down and launched earlier). The PNS/M Hamza was also the only one of the class built with the MESMA AIP system, with the other two ships ordered by Pakistan to receive MESMA later, as retrofit. And, Pakistan was the first country to use MESMA AIP system on board a combat ready submarine. I suspect at the time that Malaysia and Thailand were looking, PN Dockyard/KSEW were busy putting the first Agosta 90B together in Pakistan and integrating the AIP.

On July 15, 2015, Thailand’s defense minister Prawit Wongsuwan said that Thailand has put a hold on its newly announced billion-dollar plan to purchase three submarines (039A/Yuan) from China, threatening to once again defer the country’s dream of acquiring a capability it has lacked for more than six decades. The majority of the 17-strong committee voted to buy three Chinese submarines, saying it was the "best value for money". The rest were split between submarines from Germany and South Korea. The navy also received offers from Russia, Sweden and France.
However, on 7 October 2015 that same Defense Minister General Prawit Wongsuwan said that the Royal Thai Navy’s project to buy submarines will not be stalled as it has been designed for the protection of Thailand’s natural resources. According to General Prawit, the Royal Thai Navy is currently examining details of specifications and prices for the submarines.General Prawit stated that the Royal Thai Navy committee in charge of the purchase has not yet indicated which country it would buy the submarines from, but he would leave the decision completely to the committee.
http://www.straitstimes.com/world/thailand-slips-deeper-into-chinas-embrace
We need to distinghuish this effort from earlier efforts. Thailand has tried since the 1990s to ink submarine deals with several countries – including most recently Germany (In 2011, the navy looked into the purchase of six German-made submarines at a cost of 7.7 billion baht but the project was rejected by the then Yingluck Shinawatra government) and South Korea – but cost issues and internal differences have previously complicated and derailed plans. In that sense, not much changed ( http://www.freepressjournal.in/world/high-costs-may-delay-thai-navys-submarine-plan/675598 )

Consider:
PNS Aslat - the first F22P to be constructed in Pakistan - was laid down 10 Dec 2009 and launched 16 June 2011
PN began retrofitting the two earlier ships with Mesma AIP when they underwent overhaul in 2011.

Imho, therefor, during the early 2000-2010, after finishing PNS Saad and building PNS Hamza, PN Dockyard/KSEW were busy with putting the first domestic F22P together and upgrading the first pair of Agosta 90B with the MESMA AIP. I doubt the 2006-2009 time frame would have been sufficient to fill an export order. To sustain a submarine arm of the navy the minimum number of boats is necessary is often considered three. We saw Malaysia getting a pair and Thailand aiming for three boats. I doubt Pakistan could have produced 2-3 boats in that 2006-2009 time slot. Unless delaying e.g. the F22P domestic production and Agosta 90B overhauls.

 

[Sage]

With Russia breathing down Erdogan's neck
And with NATO unlikely to come to its rescue in case of a Russian Invasion

Turkey might Just ask PN to lease 1 Agosta 90B sub
Along with 2 Sqds of F16 with 40-50 Brave pilots

Russia will have to think 1000 times to come for Turkey ...Russia itself is a dwindling economy ...Panam leaks has exposed the Putin's mafia recently which is sucking on the wealth of Russian Federation ....Turkey shot down their jet ...Had it been the same Russia, Turkey would not shoot it down at first place ...If you ask me ...Turkey is much better in terms of Defense and Economy as compared to the present day Russia ....

 

[Super Falcon]

"It is also possible to upgrade these submarines with the latest Air-independent propulsion (AIP) systems. The first ships to receive this upgrade were to be three ships of the Greek Poseidon class Type 209/1200 under the Neptune II upgrade program. They were to be upgraded by cutting the boat in half aft of the control room and adding a 6 m plug with an 120 kW Siemens AIP system to the ship. The program was canceled in 2009 due to cancellation of the Archimedes Project (Type 214), but not before Okeanos (S118) completed the upgrade"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_209_submarine



300 feet is about 91.44 meters. I don't know where you get the idea a Type 209 can dive only 90m...

Test depth: 500 metres (1,600 ft)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_209_submarine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_209_submarine#Technical_specifications

That's better than the Agosta 70's test depth:

• 300 m (980 ft) (France, Spain)
• 350 m (1,150 ft) (Pakistan)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agosta-class_submarine

And that of the Daphne, which has a test depth of 300 m (980 ft)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daphné-class_submarine

Kilo diving depth:

• Operational: 240 m (790 ft)
• Maximum: 300 m (980 ft)

Walrus class diving depth: >300 m (980 ft)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walrus-class_submarine

Type 212A Test depth: over 700 m (2,296 ft)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_212_submarine

Type 214 diving depth: 250m (400m theoretical)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_214_submarine

Nowegian navy Ula class: 200 m (656 ft)+
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ula-class_submarine

Test depth is the maximum depth at which a submarine is permitted to operate under normal peacetime circumstances, and is tested during sea trials. The test depth is set at two-thirds of the design depth for United States Navy submarines, while the Royal Navy sets test depth slightly deeper than half (4/7ths) of the design depth, and the German Navy sets it at exactly one-half of design depth.

Design depth is the nominal depth listed in the submarine's specifications. From it the designers calculate the thickness of the hull metal, the boat's displacement, and many other related factors. Since the designers incorporate margins of error in their calculations, crush depth of an actual vessel should be slightly deeper than its design depth.

The maximum operating depth (popularly called the never-exceed depth) is the maximum depth at which a submarine is allowed to operate under any (e.g. battle) conditions.

Crush depth, officially called collapse depth, is the submerged depth at which a submarine's hull will collapse due to pressure. This is normally calculated; however, it is not always accurate. Submarines from many nations in World War II reported being forced through crush depth, due to flooding or mechanical failure, only to have the water pumped out, or the failure repaired, and succeed in surfacing again.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine_depth_ratings



Limited funds + limited willing suppliers, what else can I say....

Bhai even if u upgrade it it also a old it's hull inside pipes are old it's hull cannot stand more than 250 feet with single hulled

Untill when you keep old upgraded thinking with this entire PN ships are old

 

[princefaisal]

Apart from Agosta-90b, Agosta-70 should also be upgraded from Turkey (command & control, electronic support-attack system, communication systems) & Sweden (AIP, Torpedo 2000)