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Should Pakistan recognize Israel?

Should Pakistan recognize and establish better ties with Israel?


  • Total voters
    355
esactly, y the hell should we recognize child killers, ZIONISM=NAZISM, i want to c it abolished and forgotten in the ashes of history like the 3rd Reich..

This isnt going to happen, Israel is a reality the sooner we accept it the better it would be for the whole region. Pakistan can play its role in the peace process between Palestine and Israel, the only thing that is holding us back is our reluctance in accepting Israel as a country. By not accepting Israel we havent helped the Palestinian cause either.
 
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Who Benefits?
Pakistan "Recognizes" Israel

By M. SHAHID ALAM

In June 2003, Pervez Musharraf, Pakistan's self-appointed President and strongman, was summoned to Washington. He returned with two errands from President George Bush. Pakistan must recognize Israel and dispatch its troops to police America's illegal occupation of Iraq. There was money in it for Pakistani rulers: three billion dollars over the next five years.

Still in Washington, Musharraf told Pakistani reporters that he had made no "deal" with the United States. "Whatever we are doing, we are doing in our national interest, and fortunately our national interest coincides with those of the United States, which is the beauty of our relationship." At the least, one must thank the strongman for his frankness. Here is his public confession that his government, unreservedly, accepts the new American contract in the Islamic world. Pakistan is fighting--and will fight--America's war against terrorism, which many Muslims see as a cover for America's emasculation of Islamic societies.

Is there "beauty" in this relationship? It is a relationship that was cemented within minutes of Colin Powell's call to the strongman on the night of September 11. Instantly, Pakistan offered not only its airspace to American warplanes and missiles; it invited Americans to launch their invasion of Afghanistan from half a dozen bases within Pakistan. Soon, American operatives were stationed in Pakistani cities and making arrests on Pakistani territory. It would be difficult to come up with another example of a country which surrendered its sovereignty more precipitously. And the strongman sees "beauty" in this surrender.

Now the strongman has a new charge from America's Likudniks. "Recognize the state of Israel," they demand. This Israeli state had its origin in a brilliant conspiracy that leveraged the power of the very peoples who hated the Jews. The Zionists made a compact with their ancient tormentors: We will rid you of your Jews if you help us to establish a Jewish colonial-settler state in Palestine. In addition, the Jewish state could serve as imperialist Europe's outpost in the Arab world. Western anti-Semites found the offer irresistible. Britain first signed the compact in 1917, but when it wavered, the United States stepped in to establish Israel, and since the mid-1960s it has been its chief protagonist, softening the Islamic world for Israeli hegemony with wars and bribes.

In order to establish a lasting hegemony, Israel demanded unconditional recognition from its Arab neighbors. The first break-through came in 1978 when Egypt recognized Israel in return for an annual US payment of two billion dollars. The second break-through came in 1993, after the end of the Cold War, when Arafat and his aging cronies bartered the Palestinian's historic claims to 78 percent of historic Palestine1 for the right to police Occupied West Bank and Gaza. Most Arab states would have happily followed suit--and a few did -- but for the growing Islamist opposition at home.

The American pressure on the Pakistani junta to recognize Israel could not have come at a worse time. There are precious few in the Islamic world who believe any of the lies used to justify America's illegal invasion of Iraq; they are convinced that this was the action of a Likudnik American administration acting at the behest of Israel. The grand deception of a "peace process," inaugurated by the Oslo Accords in 1993, is now in complete tatters. Israel continues to strengthen the foundations of an apartheid state, completing the separation of "unequal races" with a wall that reaches twenty feet high. Under the circumstances, the US pressure can only be seen as more evidence of the Israeli tail wagging the American dog. The United States is pressing an Israeli demand on the Pakistani junta.

Incredibly, the Pakistani strongman has the chutzpah to argue the case for recognition. "In my view if the Palestinians themselves undertake discussions and go for friendship with Israel then what's the problem with us? What is our enmity with Israel?" Is the strongman willing to wait until the Palestinians have made their peace with Israel; until they have their own sovereign state on a mere 22 percent of historic Palestine; until the four million Palestinian refugees--ethnically cleansed in 1948 and 1967--can return to their homes inside Israel? It is clear that the strongman is in no mood to wait for these results, or that he has any interest in helping to advance these results. He must do the bidding of Washington: and he wants to do it now.

The General asks: "What is our enmity with Israel?" Has he forgotten that Pakistan is the only Muslim country to possess nuclear weapons, and although these weapons are pointed at India, Israel cannot regard Pakistan's nuclear asset with equanimity, with or without Pakistani recognition of Israel? As the military chief, Musharraf should know that the Pakistan military expects and prepares against a pre-emptive strike on its nuclear facilities from India as well as Israel, or a coordinated strike by both. India and Israel form a natural axis against Pakistan: and that is a hard geopolitical reality that will scarcely be altered by recognition.

Several commentators in Pakistan--with a naïveté that must be rare for self-proclaimed realists--have offered a list of advantages which recognition will bring to Pakistan. The list includes reduced risk of a strike against Pakistan's nuclear assets, access to Israel's military technology, and throwing a spanner in Israel's growing special relationship with India. These realists forget that recognition is a one-time act, and once accomplished it carries little or no leverage. What did the Palestinians get from their recognition of Israel?

On the other hand, let the realists be warned of some real liabilities that are likely to flow from recognition. Nearly all Pakistanis will see this as another treasonous sell-out, a costly concession extracted from their spineless rulers in exchange for loans that will only deepen Pakistan's foreign debt; and, this can only strengthen the Islamist cause that the United States wants to keep at bay. Normal relations with Israel will improve Israel's intelligence gathering in Pakistan, making Pakistan's nuclear assets even more vulnerable to an Israeli or Indian strike. We should not discount the disquiet this will cause to our Iranian neighbor; this may push them even closer to India. Finally, the realists--who can scarcely afford to ignore the probability of some real events--should ask if the recognition will be allowed to stand, even if the Islamists never manage to take power in Pakistan. Can Pakistan guarantee that the Israeli embassy and consulates in Pakistan will not become the target of violent attacks from Islamic extremists?

There is a reasonable chance, then, that this American move may backfire. It could backfire because it ignores--like nearly all the elements of American policy towards the Muslim countries--the force of Newtonian dynamics. Just because every action does not have an instant reaction in the world of social and political dynamics, short-sighted US policy makers rarely work through the long-term implications of their policy. If they do, they are convinced they have the cluster bombs to handle any adverse consequences. For fifty years, American policy has been building the grass-root forces in the Islamic world that have now begun to challenge American hegemony in their societies. It is tragic that as these forces become visible, the United States responds with more of the same. Perhaps, this is the only logic that makes sense to an imperialist elite, which has come to believe in the invincible power of cluster bombs and daisy cutters.

If Pakistan's rulers had attended to their country's national interest--and did not imagine that these interests were best served by doing America's bidding--they would have responded to US pressures by stating firmly that Pakistan and Pakistanis do recognize Israel--and they always have recognized Israel--for what it is.

Pakistanis recognize that Israel is a colonial-settler state; they recognize that this racist state was--and is--founded on terror and violence; they recognize that Israel was founded on the ruined foundations of a living Palestinian society; they recognize that Israel created a Jewish majority by ethnically cleansing more than a million Palestinians in 1948 and 1967; they recognize that Israel has a massive arsenal of nuclear weapons aimed at Islamic capitals; they recognize that Israel has armed and supported the most reactionary regimes since its creation, including apartheid South Africa and Idi Amin's Uganda; they recognize that Israel seeks to deepen its hegemonic dominance over the Arabs with American men, money and arms.

And yet, even today, I expect and hope that most Pakistanis would be glad to extend recognition to a country (by whatever name)--between the River Jordan and the Mediterranean--if it could grant equal rights to all its peoples, Jewish and Arab alike, and grant Palestinian refugees the right of return to return to their homes. But a colonialist, racist, and hegemonic Israel is another matter. And, if Zengi, Nur al-Din, Salahuddin and the Egyptian Mamluks refused to recognize the Crusader states, can Muslims today be expected to choose differently?

M. Shahid Alam: Pakistan Recognizes Israel
 
.
Who Benefits?
Pakistan "Recognizes" Israel

By M. SHAHID ALAM

In June 2003, Pervez Musharraf, Pakistan's self-appointed President and strongman, was summoned to Washington. He returned with two errands from President George Bush. Pakistan must recognize Israel and dispatch its troops to police America's illegal occupation of Iraq. There was money in it for Pakistani rulers: three billion dollars over the next five years.

Still in Washington, Musharraf told Pakistani reporters that he had made no "deal" with the United States. "Whatever we are doing, we are doing in our national interest, and fortunately our national interest coincides with those of the United States, which is the beauty of our relationship." At the least, one must thank the strongman for his frankness. Here is his public confession that his government, unreservedly, accepts the new American contract in the Islamic world. Pakistan is fighting--and will fight--America's war against terrorism, which many Muslims see as a cover for America's emasculation of Islamic societies.

Is there "beauty" in this relationship? It is a relationship that was cemented within minutes of Colin Powell's call to the strongman on the night of September 11. Instantly, Pakistan offered not only its airspace to American warplanes and missiles; it invited Americans to launch their invasion of Afghanistan from half a dozen bases within Pakistan. Soon, American operatives were stationed in Pakistani cities and making arrests on Pakistani territory. It would be difficult to come up with another example of a country which surrendered its sovereignty more precipitously. And the strongman sees "beauty" in this surrender.

Now the strongman has a new charge from America's Likudniks. "Recognize the state of Israel," they demand. This Israeli state had its origin in a brilliant conspiracy that leveraged the power of the very peoples who hated the Jews. The Zionists made a compact with their ancient tormentors: We will rid you of your Jews if you help us to establish a Jewish colonial-settler state in Palestine. In addition, the Jewish state could serve as imperialist Europe's outpost in the Arab world. Western anti-Semites found the offer irresistible. Britain first signed the compact in 1917, but when it wavered, the United States stepped in to establish Israel, and since the mid-1960s it has been its chief protagonist, softening the Islamic world for Israeli hegemony with wars and bribes.

In order to establish a lasting hegemony, Israel demanded unconditional recognition from its Arab neighbors. The first break-through came in 1978 when Egypt recognized Israel in return for an annual US payment of two billion dollars. The second break-through came in 1993, after the end of the Cold War, when Arafat and his aging cronies bartered the Palestinian's historic claims to 78 percent of historic Palestine1 for the right to police Occupied West Bank and Gaza. Most Arab states would have happily followed suit--and a few did -- but for the growing Islamist opposition at home.

The American pressure on the Pakistani junta to recognize Israel could not have come at a worse time. There are precious few in the Islamic world who believe any of the lies used to justify America's illegal invasion of Iraq; they are convinced that this was the action of a Likudnik American administration acting at the behest of Israel. The grand deception of a "peace process," inaugurated by the Oslo Accords in 1993, is now in complete tatters. Israel continues to strengthen the foundations of an apartheid state, completing the separation of "unequal races" with a wall that reaches twenty feet high. Under the circumstances, the US pressure can only be seen as more evidence of the Israeli tail wagging the American dog. The United States is pressing an Israeli demand on the Pakistani junta.

Incredibly, the Pakistani strongman has the chutzpah to argue the case for recognition. "In my view if the Palestinians themselves undertake discussions and go for friendship with Israel then what's the problem with us? What is our enmity with Israel?" Is the strongman willing to wait until the Palestinians have made their peace with Israel; until they have their own sovereign state on a mere 22 percent of historic Palestine; until the four million Palestinian refugees--ethnically cleansed in 1948 and 1967--can return to their homes inside Israel? It is clear that the strongman is in no mood to wait for these results, or that he has any interest in helping to advance these results. He must do the bidding of Washington: and he wants to do it now.

The General asks: "What is our enmity with Israel?" Has he forgotten that Pakistan is the only Muslim country to possess nuclear weapons, and although these weapons are pointed at India, Israel cannot regard Pakistan's nuclear asset with equanimity, with or without Pakistani recognition of Israel? As the military chief, Musharraf should know that the Pakistan military expects and prepares against a pre-emptive strike on its nuclear facilities from India as well as Israel, or a coordinated strike by both. India and Israel form a natural axis against Pakistan: and that is a hard geopolitical reality that will scarcely be altered by recognition.
Several commentators in Pakistan--with a naïveté that must be rare for self-proclaimed realists--have offered a list of advantages which recognition will bring to Pakistan. The list includes reduced risk of a strike against Pakistan's nuclear assets, access to Israel's military technology, and throwing a spanner in Israel's growing special relationship with India. These realists forget that recognition is a one-time act, and once accomplished it carries little or no leverage. What did the Palestinians get from their recognition of Israel?

On the other hand, let the realists be warned of some real liabilities that are likely to flow from recognition. Nearly all Pakistanis will see this as another treasonous sell-out, a costly concession extracted from their spineless rulers in exchange for loans that will only deepen Pakistan's foreign debt; and, this can only strengthen the Islamist cause that the United States wants to keep at bay. Normal relations with Israel will improve Israel's intelligence gathering in Pakistan, making Pakistan's nuclear assets even more vulnerable to an Israeli or Indian strike. We should not discount the disquiet this will cause to our Iranian neighbor; this may push them even closer to India. Finally, the realists--who can scarcely afford to ignore the probability of some real events--should ask if the recognition will be allowed to stand, even if the Islamists never manage to take power in Pakistan. Can Pakistan guarantee that the Israeli embassy and consulates in Pakistan will not become the target of violent attacks from Islamic extremists?
There is a reasonable chance, then, that this American move may backfire. It could backfire because it ignores--like nearly all the elements of American policy towards the Muslim countries--the force of Newtonian dynamics. Just because every action does not have an instant reaction in the world of social and political dynamics, short-sighted US policy makers rarely work through the long-term implications of their policy. If they do, they are convinced they have the cluster bombs to handle any adverse consequences. For fifty years, American policy has been building the grass-root forces in the Islamic world that have now begun to challenge American hegemony in their societies. It is tragic that as these forces become visible, the United States responds with more of the same. Perhaps, this is the only logic that makes sense to an imperialist elite, which has come to believe in the invincible power of cluster bombs and daisy cutters.

If Pakistan's rulers had attended to their country's national interest--and did not imagine that these interests were best served by doing America's bidding--they would have responded to US pressures by stating firmly that Pakistan and Pakistanis do recognize Israel--and they always have recognized Israel--for what it is.

Pakistanis recognize that Israel is a colonial-settler state; they recognize that this racist state was--and is--founded on terror and violence; they recognize that Israel was founded on the ruined foundations of a living Palestinian society; they recognize that Israel created a Jewish majority by ethnically cleansing more than a million Palestinians in 1948 and 1967; they recognize that Israel has a massive arsenal of nuclear weapons aimed at Islamic capitals; they recognize that Israel has armed and supported the most reactionary regimes since its creation, including apartheid South Africa and Idi Amin's Uganda; they recognize that Israel seeks to deepen its hegemonic dominance over the Arabs with American men, money and arms.
And yet, even today, I expect and hope that most Pakistanis would be glad to extend recognition to a country (by whatever name)--between the River Jordan and the Mediterranean--if it could grant equal rights to all its peoples, Jewish and Arab alike, and grant Palestinian refugees the right of return to return to their homes. But a colonialist, racist, and hegemonic Israel is another matter. And, if Zengi, Nur al-Din, Salahuddin and the Egyptian Mamluks refused to recognize the Crusader states, can Muslims today be expected to choose differently?

M. Shahid Alam: Pakistan Recognizes Israel


Presently Pakistan is most dangrous country declared by western and US media , why? because they are afraid that if extremist got nukes their first target will be Israel.

Pakistan gained very important position after nuke tests, we can put pressure on US for resolution of Palestine problem and Kashmir issue.

US is also afraid from our nukes that is reason they have long term plan to keep their forces in Afghanistan.

It was our hard luck Gen Zia died other wise he had plan to resolve both issues.
 
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Then you are saying opposite of what the Holy Prophet PBUH, the Quaid, Allama Iqbal and countless others of our forefathers have said.



1) your statement: Non-sequitor
2) We dont speak for Palestine as an Arab cause, its an all Muslim cause, and before that, humanist cause, are you a human being? I know you are, if you dont buy religion's BS, you do accept that all human beings deserve to live, including the Palestinians?

When did any of the aforementioned people say to hate a whole country and jews as well for the actions of a few? And tell me, why isn't Kashmir on the list of muslim causes as well? And I accept that both Israelis and Palestinians get to live.
 
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You do not deserve nor qualify for a direct answer. In fact, I have answered those questions several times before on the forum. Understand, I don't need to answer you, very pathetic and idiotic I must say...


Shove it...

Al Kaid.
Cool it man!! There is no sense in using this sort of language on a serious forum. If you dont want to answer him dont do so. If you find his post abusive report it , but kindly refrain from responding in an adverse manner.
MODS we might need dsome cool off period here.
Araz
 
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People really need to stop bringin up the argument of 'why are you living in XYZ nation if you disagree with the policies of that nation'.

There are people in every country that disagree with the polices of that country, to varying degrees. There are Pakistanis in Pakistan who would prefer to see it more liberal and secular, and others who would like to see it become more conservative.

There are Americans who are harshly critical of the US's support for Israel and its interventionist policies around the world. Those who woudl consider the US to be on a road to becoming a 'Socialist state' were a Government option included in Obama's healthcare reform.

Being critical of a nation's policies does not mean you should leave the place (It would be hard to find a country where one agrees with every single law or policy). The ability to disagree and criticize laws and policies, and trying to affect change in them is a critical part of being a good citizen/resident.

So put this utterly useless canard of 'why are you in XYZ country if you disagree with the policies' to rest now - it comes across as offensive and hijacks the discussions.
 
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Why not.

Many muslim countries or Muslim dominated countries have recognized Israel.

Why Pakistan should be different? If Pakistan can recognize India,US, UK and Bangladesh then whats the problem with Israel?

Turkey, Azerbaijan, Jordan, Egypt, Eritrea are some of the muslim countries who have recognized Israel.

Military colaboration between Turkey and Israel.

Modernization of Turkey's F-4 Phantoms and F-5 aircraft at a cost of $900 million.
Upgrading 170 of Turkey's M60A1 tanks for $500 million.
Popeye-I and Popeye-II missiles.
400 km (250 miles) range Delilah cruise missiles.
Popeye-II surface-to-air missiles for $150 million.
Arrow anti-ballistic-missiles. (Agreed by Israel. Approval of the United States is awaited.)
400 km (250 miles) range Delilah cruise missiles. (Negotiation)
The agreement provides exchange of pilots eight times a year; allows Israeli pilots to practice "long range flying over mountainous land" in Turkey's Konya firing range; and permits Turkish pilots to train at Israel's computerized firing range at the Nevatim airfield.(Nechmani, 1998: 24; Pipes, 1997 34)
The two navies conducted maneuvers during Operation Reliant Mermaid (the U.S. also participated) in January 1998.
 
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Why not.

Many muslim countries or Muslim dominated countries have recognized Israel.

Why Pakistan should be different? If Pakistan can recognize India,US, UK and Bangladesh then whats the problem with Israel?

Turkey, Azerbaijan, Jordan, Egypt, Eritrea are some of the muslim countries who have recognized Israel.

Military colaboration between Turkey and Israel.

Modernization of Turkey's F-4 Phantoms and F-5 aircraft at a cost of $900 million.
Upgrading 170 of Turkey's M60A1 tanks for $500 million.
Popeye-I and Popeye-II missiles.
400 km (250 miles) range Delilah cruise missiles.
Popeye-II surface-to-air missiles for $150 million.
Arrow anti-ballistic-missiles. (Agreed by Israel. Approval of the United States is awaited.)
400 km (250 miles) range Delilah cruise missiles. (Negotiation)
The agreement provides exchange of pilots eight times a year; allows Israeli pilots to practice "long range flying over mountainous land" in Turkey's Konya firing range; and permits Turkish pilots to train at Israel's computerized firing range at the Nevatim airfield.(Nechmani, 1998: 24; Pipes, 1997 34)
The two navies conducted maneuvers during Operation Reliant Mermaid (the U.S. also participated) in January 1998.

Case of Turkey is different ,they have modified many islamic principles but Pakistan is castle of islam , we will defend all holy places uptill last drop of blood.

We still not forget babri mosque , india should rebuilt it ASAP.
 
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We still not forget babri mosque , india should rebuilt it ASAP.

Off topic. Off topic Off topic.

Case of Turkey is different ,they have modified many islamic principles but Pakistan is castle of islam , we will defend all holy places uptill last drop of blood.

I can give you 100's of examples where Pakistan have modified Islamic principles. I dont want to go off topic here.

If case of Turkey is different then what about Egypt and Jordan?

If Charlie Wilson's War has to be believed. Americans outsourced the arms for Mujahideen in Afghanistan via Israel and Zia knew about it.
 
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Case of Turkey is different ,they have modified many islamic principles but Pakistan is castle of islam , we will defend all holy places uptill last drop of blood.

Defend all holy places from what? If you haven't forgotten, it was the Saudis that tried to destroy muhammad's grave, not the Israelis. And why would Israelis destroy Jerusalem? It is sacred to them too, Jews and Muslims are brothers , more so than Christians and Muslims.

:pakistan::usflag:
 
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Defend all holy places from what? If you haven't forgotten, it was the Saudis that tried to destroy muhammad's grave, not the Israelis. And why would Israelis destroy Jerusalem? It is sacred to them too, Jews and Muslims are brothers , more so than Christians and Muslims.

:pakistan::usflag:

it was the Saudis that tried to destroy muhammad's grave

First of all, technically The Prophet Muhammad's SAW grave is not necessarily Holy, thought it is historical and very sacred and cherished site.
And why would Israelis destroy Jerusalem?

The Israelis and Israeli politicians have been lobbying and pursuing to break, remove, deconstruct, and destroy the Dome of the Rock.

You call them your 'brothers', it would be wise if you knew what your 'brothers' actually believed. They believe the Temple of Solomon once stood at the Dome of the Rock and in order to rebuild the Temple of Solomon they must destroy the Dome of the Rock, their religious belief is until this happens their Messiah will not arrive.

In fact, for many years Israel has allowed underground tunnel digging beneath the Dome of the Rock, which is dangerous as the place may collapse from beneath.

You seem to know very little and spout stupidity, then again that is the American way and that is what is expected of you.
 
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I don't agree, for the following reasons:

1) The Jews also denied the existence of "The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion", but eventually one of the "Learned Elders" came out with an original copy and so "The Learned Elders" accepted it to be true from then onwards.

2) The site you have given me, has no credibility, as far as credibility on the net goes!

3) If the site you mentioned is credible, then the date it says this Ben Gurion quote first appeared on is also wrong, I have seen it being used far before that.

4) I have a book about Ben Gurion's Speeches, this quote is present in that book. I will look for the book and post the page no.

5) Many notable scholarly people of high renown and credibility have used this quote, you might not agree with their opinions but their credibility is worthy. Including: Gen(R) Hamid Gul, Hamid Mir, Zaid Hamid, Dr. Mahdi Hassan, etc. So, its "his" word against the word of all these renowned scholars. And we dont even know who that "his" is anyway??

6) Creating a page to debunk something on the net is pretty easy.

:)

Im just talking about that quote being reported on Jewish Chronicle. I posted the blog because all the investigation was done.

But the fact remains that 9August 1967 is a Wednesday, and the JC prints only on Fridays. Its a weekly. You can search for this yourself.

The Jewish Chronicle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Year 1967 Calendar – United Kingdom
 
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It proves that Pakistan can minus one major enemy if it recognize Israel :pop::coffee:

I think it is best to know who is your enemy. otherwise hidden enemies can be very bad for a country like pakistan. See USA-Pakistan relationships..
 
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