muse
ELITE MEMBER
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- Oct 26, 2006
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Sir
According diplomatic recognition is not the same as approving policies - we have diplomatic relations with the U.S but do nto approave of all policies of the U.S. -- why should Israel be different?
You misrepresent - in the earlier post about diplomatic recognition, you choose to argue "clandestine contacts" -- one points to apples you respond pointing to oranges arguing they may be thought of as apples of a different kind.
Now you do the same arguing that India are natural and Israel, other than - you seem unaware that "India" are a UK creation, no such a nation state ever existed in that "Land mass" before, for that matter no such a state known as Pakistan ever existed in that land mass before and also owes it's creation to the English.
Israel are situated on a land mass known historically as Palestine, A land mass, not a nation state, Israel have a history as a nation state going back more than 2000 years, at least - it is also a fact that such a nation state had ceased to exist - however; to argue that it is "unnatural" and whereas the entirely new creation of "India" are "natural" is to stretch credulity and challenge your readers patience if not intelligence.
I should like otpoint out to you that it is not so much Israel that stands in the way of a Palestinian state, it is the political ambitions of Palestinians that does so, Hamas and the PA have done a terrible job and brought the territory to ruin in pursuit of their ideologies.
A1, I don't think you are doing justice to your critical faculties, that the U.S and Europeans powers and even Israel and Egypt back the PA, does not make them illegitimate -- the same U.S and European powers also back the Pakistani government, will you also argue that it makes the Pakistani government "defeatist" -- you seem to suggest that "moderate" is a label to be worn with great shame - since when? young sir! Isn't the middle path we are advised to follow, have not the sages and saints and the sacred scriptures recommend such and to reject the extreme, but to maintain balance, Deen and Duniya? Please do consider. All countires and state and municipal and private organizations exercise influence, there is nothing inherently wrong with that, Pakistan exercise the same influence, did we not help Lanka defeat the LTTE? Was that inherently wrong of us to protect our interests??
Also please consider that Hamas's first supporters were Israel, yes, as a counter to the Fatah influence - this FACT must not be overlooked when formulating arguments to support your position, because your interlocutors will not have overlooked it.
It is again a misrepresentation of the Hamas position to suggest that it's entirety consists of rejection. Hamas seek to coerce Israel to such that the PA will be secondary and that Israel will then have to be more attentive tot he agenda Hamas have set, it is but a ploy, a tactic. It is an absurd notion to imagine that a political party that does not recognize the existence of those it is in conflict with, can engage in negotiations with them - negotiating with those you do not recognize, how is such a thing possible?.
Pakistan and any other combination of countries cannot hope to apply pressure on Israel, until they have diplomatic relations with Israel. See, in a civilized order, you have to give all parties the cover of sovereign equality, you have to recognize them as sovereign, you have to assure them that you have an interest in their well being and that you will allow them to have a interest in your well being -- in other words, we must first allow the Israeli to develop an interest and then allow the realization that they now have something to lose, instead of more to gain.
It is not just you or I and others who find some policies that he Israeli state follows, noxious, many Israeli do as well - you read OP/ED pieces written by eminent and accomplished Israeli in Pakistani papers, therefore you are aware that there is much discussion and increasing awareness on all sides.
Sir, contrary to surface indications, where as it seems that the world is in conflict, there is also a recognition that international order can not afford these conflicts for much longer -- you may not realize it but there is much activity aimed at resolving conflicts and to preventing them, such an effort requires that we as Pakistan be seen by parties as potential friend and not as partisan and unwilling to accept others. We invite those who are not our friends to be our friends and this helps those who are already our friends because we may offer our goodwill and good offices.
Israel should be no different than any other country, we should have diplomatic and commercial relations and influence them to understand the impact of some polices they follow on us and we ready for th4em to influence us on the impact of some policies we follow on the Israeli public, it's civil, it's the right thing to do.
According diplomatic recognition is not the same as approving policies - we have diplomatic relations with the U.S but do nto approave of all policies of the U.S. -- why should Israel be different?
You misrepresent - in the earlier post about diplomatic recognition, you choose to argue "clandestine contacts" -- one points to apples you respond pointing to oranges arguing they may be thought of as apples of a different kind.
Now you do the same arguing that India are natural and Israel, other than - you seem unaware that "India" are a UK creation, no such a nation state ever existed in that "Land mass" before, for that matter no such a state known as Pakistan ever existed in that land mass before and also owes it's creation to the English.
Israel are situated on a land mass known historically as Palestine, A land mass, not a nation state, Israel have a history as a nation state going back more than 2000 years, at least - it is also a fact that such a nation state had ceased to exist - however; to argue that it is "unnatural" and whereas the entirely new creation of "India" are "natural" is to stretch credulity and challenge your readers patience if not intelligence.
I should like otpoint out to you that it is not so much Israel that stands in the way of a Palestinian state, it is the political ambitions of Palestinians that does so, Hamas and the PA have done a terrible job and brought the territory to ruin in pursuit of their ideologies.
A1, I don't think you are doing justice to your critical faculties, that the U.S and Europeans powers and even Israel and Egypt back the PA, does not make them illegitimate -- the same U.S and European powers also back the Pakistani government, will you also argue that it makes the Pakistani government "defeatist" -- you seem to suggest that "moderate" is a label to be worn with great shame - since when? young sir! Isn't the middle path we are advised to follow, have not the sages and saints and the sacred scriptures recommend such and to reject the extreme, but to maintain balance, Deen and Duniya? Please do consider. All countires and state and municipal and private organizations exercise influence, there is nothing inherently wrong with that, Pakistan exercise the same influence, did we not help Lanka defeat the LTTE? Was that inherently wrong of us to protect our interests??
Also please consider that Hamas's first supporters were Israel, yes, as a counter to the Fatah influence - this FACT must not be overlooked when formulating arguments to support your position, because your interlocutors will not have overlooked it.
It is again a misrepresentation of the Hamas position to suggest that it's entirety consists of rejection. Hamas seek to coerce Israel to such that the PA will be secondary and that Israel will then have to be more attentive tot he agenda Hamas have set, it is but a ploy, a tactic. It is an absurd notion to imagine that a political party that does not recognize the existence of those it is in conflict with, can engage in negotiations with them - negotiating with those you do not recognize, how is such a thing possible?.
Pakistan and any other combination of countries cannot hope to apply pressure on Israel, until they have diplomatic relations with Israel. See, in a civilized order, you have to give all parties the cover of sovereign equality, you have to recognize them as sovereign, you have to assure them that you have an interest in their well being and that you will allow them to have a interest in your well being -- in other words, we must first allow the Israeli to develop an interest and then allow the realization that they now have something to lose, instead of more to gain.
It is not just you or I and others who find some policies that he Israeli state follows, noxious, many Israeli do as well - you read OP/ED pieces written by eminent and accomplished Israeli in Pakistani papers, therefore you are aware that there is much discussion and increasing awareness on all sides.
Sir, contrary to surface indications, where as it seems that the world is in conflict, there is also a recognition that international order can not afford these conflicts for much longer -- you may not realize it but there is much activity aimed at resolving conflicts and to preventing them, such an effort requires that we as Pakistan be seen by parties as potential friend and not as partisan and unwilling to accept others. We invite those who are not our friends to be our friends and this helps those who are already our friends because we may offer our goodwill and good offices.
Israel should be no different than any other country, we should have diplomatic and commercial relations and influence them to understand the impact of some polices they follow on us and we ready for th4em to influence us on the impact of some policies we follow on the Israeli public, it's civil, it's the right thing to do.
