Should Pakistan recognize Israel?

[ARSENAL6]

Is Israel the only nation in the UN with which Pakistan does not have diplomatic relations? Is Israel the most evil nation on the planet in Pakistani eyes? Why?

Is every Muslim nation the only nation in the UN with which Israel does not have diplomatic relations? Is Muslim nations the most evil nation on the planet in Israeli and US eyes? Why ?

 

[muse]

Be fair, be reasonable - TS did not say anything about Muslim country or anything to do with confession.

TS is trying to understand why two countries such as Pakistan and Israel ought not be civil -- not that problems will disappear bu tat least there will be a measure of civility and respect

 

[qsaark]

Sometimes on this forum, one really has to question the quality of education some members display - every manner of ridiculous argument is presented, backed up no less by verses of the Quran - is this not ideology over religion?? Is this not blasphemy?? Is this not obscene??

You are getting extremely personal here. What wrong you see in backing-up arguments by Quranic verses? How this becomes ideology over religion, or blasphemy? If the arguments made are so rediculous, you or anybody should be able to brush them off with no difficulty. Rather than passing comments on the quality of education presented, you may want to concentrate on debunking the arguments made by such 'educated' members.

 

[muse]

Qsaark

Indeed we have brushed them off - what we can hope for is well reasoned arguments instead we get fluff. Look at the poll

It's interesting that neither you nor any other was able to answer why if the Quranic criteria offered should be used, how Pakistan can have relations with Saudi Arabia or Iran or any other country, nor have you nor any other been able to answer, how we are to use those criteria among ulema

Unfortunately for those who USE religion to further their ideology, more and more people are beginning to see through their charade - What do you make of that?

Propositions should be discussed with reason, if you guys do that you may be able to influence people who think with their minds.

 

[A1Kaid]

Qsaark

Indeed we have brushed them off - what we can hope for is well reasoned arguments instead we get fluff. Look at the poll

It's interesting that neither you nor any other was able to answer why if the Quranic criteria offered should be used, how Pakistan can have relations with Saudi Arabia or Iran or any other country, nor have you nor any other been able to answer, how we are to use those criteria among ulema

Unfortunately for those who USE religion to further their ideology, more and more people are beginning to see through their charade - What do you make of that?

Propositions should be discussed with reason, if you guys do that you may be able to influence people who think with their minds.

"Indeed we have brushed them off - what we can hope for is well reasoned arguments instead we get fluff. Look at the poll "

Speaking for myself I have provided reasoned arguments, besides you should avoid getting into a deep debate with the JR members whose knowledge is not adequate in the history and contemporary aspects of this issue, of Israel, Middle East, and Pakistan. "Should Pakistan recognize and establish better ties with Israel".

"
It's interesting that neither you nor any other was able to answer why if the Quranic criteria offered should be used, how Pakistan can have relations with Saudi Arabia or Iran or any other country, nor have you nor any other been able to answer, how we are to use those criteria among ulema"

Well Sir, neither me nor Qsaark every quoted the Quran in our points and debate posts, it was a different member, maybe that's why we haven't bothered to do so...Simply we did not post anything from the Quran, and speaking for myself I use historical information and wisdom, though using the Quran is not a bad idea either to guide one's thinking and world view.

"Unfortunately for those who USE religion to further their ideology, more and more people are beginning to see through their charade - What do you make of that?

Interesting statement about "those who USE religion to further their ideology, more and more people are beginning to see through their charade".

In my previous post I said this.

"

Point C


Sir right now Pakistan within many other countries can apply pressure on Israel, and let Israel know as long as it continues settlement expansion it will fail to be recognized as a legitimate state by many in the Middle East and Muslim World, though some states have recognized Israel the Muslim world at large has not ideologically nor legally.

But this is not merely Pakistan's responsibility, even the U.N and even the US in the past had criticized Israel for it's settlement expansion. George Bush Senior's, Secretary of State (to the best of my memory) once said (paraphrasing) "every time he went to negotiate peace between Israel and the Palestinians nothing made his job more difficult than Israeli settlement expansion". Yet Israel has failed to stop, are you suggesting recognizing Israel as a legitimate state in the open and conducting dialogue with Israel will stop them. Sir you must understand the ideology we are dealing with, it is an ideology that believes "God" "Yahweh" has given them that land, so from their side there is little to be negotiated, the leaders they elect like Sharon and another extremist like Netanyahu indicate/reflect their sentiment on settlement expansion.

I repeat, "you must understand the ideology we are dealing with, it is an ideology that believes "God" "Yahweh" has given them that land, so from their side there is little to be negotiated, the leaders they elect like Sharon and another extremist like Netanyahu indicate/reflect their sentiment on settlement expansion."



So do you not see that the Israelis actually "USE religion to further their ideology" of ZIONISM!!!

They use Judaism to unite the Jews and their ideology of Zionism guides them to build more settlement, occupy land, defy agreements, and much more. The Zionist ideology believes there is no Palestine, and that God has given them the "land of Judea", so there is no negotiating Israel's right to the entire land. In fact, many Zionist believe the Jewish homeland should be expanded even more. This is what you fail to see.

Check Mate...

 

[muse]

So do you not see that the Israelis actually "USE religion to further their ideology" of ZIONISM!!!

Check Mate

You are obviously a much deeper thinker than I first took you to be - congratualtions.

 

[A1Kaid]

You are obviously a much deeper thinker than I first took you to be - congratualtions.

Sir may I ask if you are being sincere or sarcastic? I am uncertain...

If you are being sarcastic that is fine as well you are entitled to your opinion.

 

[qsaark]

Qsaark

Indeed we have brushed them off - what we can hope for is well reasoned arguments instead we get fluff. Look at the poll

It's interesting that neither you nor any other was able to answer why if the Quranic criteria offered should be used, how Pakistan can have relations with Saudi Arabia or Iran or any other country, nor have you nor any other been able to answer, how we are to use those criteria among ulema

Unfortunately for those who USE religion to further their ideology, more and more people are beginning to see through their charade - What do you make of that?

Propositions should be discussed with reason, if you guys do that you may be able to influence people who think with their minds.

Perhaps you have not read my stand on this issue. I would have answered if I was apposing diplomatic relations with Israel, which I am not. It is good to reply promptly, but without reading one's post, its kind of strange. Following are my posts on this issue on the Page-1 of this thread:

If Israel goes back to pre-1967 positions than, Yes, we should recognize Israel. Besides Israel is a reality whether we recognize it or not.

Probably you are not aware that King Abdullah of KSA had offered this plan to Israel in 2002. The plan as adopted calls for Israeli withdrawal from all territories occupied since 1967 and return of the Palestine refugees to Israel in return for recognition of Israel and normal relations.

King Abdullah's initiative consists of the following provisions:

1. Full Israeli withdrawal from all the territories occupied since 1967, to the June 4, 1967 lines.

2. The acceptance of the establishment of a sovereign independent Palestinian state on the Palestinian territories occupied since June 4, 1967 in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, with Al-Qods (Jerusalem) as its capital.

3. Solving the Refugees issue in accordance with the international resolutions issued in this respect.

At the 14th Arab summit on March 27-28, 2002 in Beirut, King Abdullah laid out a peace initiative, based on Resolution 242's principle of "land for peace," and on the basis of United Nations Security Council Resolution 338 which calls for a cease-fire followed by immediate implementation of Security Council Resolution 242 and negotiations between the parties "aimed at establishing a just and durable peace in the Middle East." King Abdullah proposed that the Arabs put forward "a clear and unambiguous initiative" to the UN Security Council calling for full withdrawal from all occupied Arab territories, recognition of an independent Palestinian state with East Jerusalem as its capital, and the return of refugees in exchange for normal relations and security for Israel.

Source: The Saudi Peace Initiative -2002 Abdullah announces the Saudi Peace Initiative at the Beirut Conference

 

[muse]

Qsaark

You put so many conditions on them before you recognize them that it seems you are more Palestinian or should I say more hamas than Hamas.

One wonders if you also maintain that Pakistan withdraw diplomatic relations from India until India withdraw from kashmir? If not, Why not? You are an educated person, you must surely have reasons which you have thought out and can help us understand your position -- BTW, there is no shame in changing one's position, it only shows that one is open to reason.

Israel cannot maintain it's occupation, it cannot maintain the farce of settlements.

But what do these have to do with Pakistan's recognition that israel exists and that Pakistan should be fair and have relations with all countries. Would it be acceptable for instance for the Afghan to say that Pakistan must give up Pakhtunkhwa and also Balouchistan so Afghanistan can have territory it use to have and also have access to the seas and oceans, before relations will improve?? Won't that be unrealistic?

 

[muse]

Interesting, no response?

 

[qsaark]

Qsaark

You put so many conditions on them before you recognize them that it seems you are more Palestinian or should I say more hamas than Hamas.

One wonders if you also maintain that Pakistan withdraw diplomatic relations from India until India withdraw from kashmir? If not, Why not? You are an educated person, you must surely have reasons which you have thought out and can help us understand your position -- BTW, there is no shame in changing one's position, it only shows that one is open to reason.

Israel cannot maintain it's occupation, it cannot maintain the farce of settlements.

But what do these have to do with Pakistan's recognition that israel exists and that Pakistan should be fair and have relations with all countries. Would it be acceptable for instance for the Afghan to say that Pakistan must give up Pakhtunkhwa and also Balouchistan so Afghanistan can have territory it use to have and also have access to the seas and oceans, before relations will improve?? Won't that be unrealistic?

Again a list of assumptions and allegations. You are relating things to me I did not even mention in my post. It is pointless getting into a debate with you because you recognize no law, no rule, no system. Only your views are correct, anybody who even slightly differs from you is Islamist, terrorist and what not. Time has come for me to retire from replying to your posts.

 

[khanz]

wow poll is nearly equel recognition against israel is ahread only by 1 vote last time i was it was even .I didn't expect it to be so close

 

[arslan_treen]

y not i say go for it ...

 

[muse]

wow poll is nearly equel recognition against israel is ahread only by 1 vote last time i was it was even .I didn't expect it to be so close

Compare this to the time when only the Islamist voice was heard amongst us. See, we have no compelling reason not to befriend others, Radical Islamist ideology had ensured that we see the world only through the prism of their prejudices, which were really not the criteria of Pakistanis but of radical arabs.

We as Pakistanis do not support the policies of Israel in the occupied territories, we regret that the Israel have been unsuccesful in seeing that peace for them depends on peace for Palestinians -- but this is one issue, whereas we have many other issues which we may be able to resolve should Pakistan and Israel have diplomatic relations and behave towards each other in civil tones like any other.

 

[A1Kaid]

wow poll is nearly equel recognition against israel is ahread only by 1 vote last time i was it was even .I didn't expect it to be so close

Yes it is a very close nail biting poll.


But we must be critical in our analysis.

This poll is about what Pakistanis think in regards to "Should Pakistan recognize Israel?" Not what Non-Pakistanis think in regards to this issue.

There are about 3-6 Non-Pakistanis who voted Yes. There Votes do not really count, as I explained why before...

Yes
afriend, Airboss, airbus, alirulesall123, brahmastra, Cheetah786, Durran3, EjazR, Energon, forcetrip, Hasnain2009, Infanteer, kidwaibhai, MastanKhan, mcuk2001, muse, notorious_eagle, Peace_maker, S-2, saadahmed, SecularHumanist, Sino-PakFriendship, TruthSeeker, WAR VICTOR, z9-ec

25 38.46%


So In fact I've spotted 6 Non-Pakistanis who voted. That makes the Yes Vote actually 19* not 25.

No

Aamir Zia, ajpirzada, asaeed, batmannow, brilTek, cobra-venom, devolt, enigma947, H2O3C4Nitrogen, Imran2006g, Incredible India, Jihad, Lockheed F-16, luftwaffe, Mian Asad, Mujahid91, Nomi965, p4kistan, pak-marine, PakistanMyPride, raheel1, Screaming Skull, sergente rehan, Silverfalcon, ThinkingBrain, zubair723

26

I've spotted 2 Non-Pakistanis who voted No. That makes the actual NO vote 22-24 and not 26.

The Names highlighted in Blue are in question, there votes may or may not be counted. As they may just be trolls or fake accounts.




So the actual vote as of May 31. 12:43pm EST US Time is.


19 Voted Yes



22-24 Voted No.





* This number could be 20, I may have mistakenly counted someone as Non-Pakistani.