Should Pakistan Go for EMP burst Devices and Jamming technologies?

[Sinnerman108]

This is your second unprovoked bash with me..You had similar trollish behavior with me in another thread.

About your whatever explanation..you don't need to ask my age and qualifications before posting on the forum..Do you?

Why are you being defensive all of a sudden ?

anyway ... can't help that.

All electromagnetic radiation form what ever source, and belonging to what ever range of spectrum has a property.
The strength of radiation varies inversely to the square of the distance apart.
Now, with lasers you have an added problem of spectrum shifting, and the spread.
A laser which is produced through an aperture of 10mm at source, will be more than that once the target is 100 km away, and even wider when it is 27000 km away.

Thus you have loss of power due to the distance apart, and due to spread.

third problem to produce lasers which are restricted to a certain wavelength only.
say you produce a laser with a wave length of 1m, what that means really is that 99.9999 % will be 1 m, and there will be a small fraction which will be more or less than 1m. ( the numbers and fractions are fictitious, but you get the idea)
This problem is seriously exaggerated as the wavelengths keep getting shorter and shorter.

Technology has not progressed enough to produce materials as yet, of obtaining accuracies of that kind.

So, now when you know the above three ( and there are plenty more problems) you will be sceptical of these articles that you quoted.

The message i wanted to convey is, do not quote or believe some thing just because it was on the internet.

We can spend more time on this forum to constructively contribute to the cause of science and our country.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Just because the chinese have the tech to blind it does not mean that it will be given to pak---pakistan will have to fight a lots of its battles on its own----.

About EMP---it was a hot hot item in the 90's---after the 2002 pak / india scenario---this item has suddenly disappeared from the lime light. Has pakistan been cowed down to stop building the weapon or is the EMP device just a simple dud and does not provide as promised---.

Unless something substantial comes out from the research labs---this item has seen its day.

 

[SQ8]

Hot item where?
Back in 98 too I had a little question on this particular topic from the no2 at PAEC at the time.
His answer was simple.. short of blowing up a megaton nuke in the lower stratosphere.. there exists no actual effective conventional method to generate a large burst of EMP.(unless you wish to include the fictional device in Oceans 11).

 

[TaimiKhan]

Hot item where?
Back in 98 too I had a little question on this particular topic from the no2 at PAEC at the time.
His answer was simple.. short of blowing up a megaton nuke in the lower stratosphere.. there exists no actual effective conventional method to generate a large burst of EMP.(unless you wish to include the fictional device in Oceans 11).

Or this one, which is being researched. May be in future something can come up which does not needs to nuke to be detonated.

http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/future-weapons-emp-bomb.html

 

[SQ8]

There is a device that does not need a nuclear blast to give off an emp..
However.. whether that possess a sufficient blast radius vs size balance is questionable..
IF I want somebody's electronics to fry.. I want them fried in at least a 50-100km radius.. otherwise I see no point.

 

[Safriz]

Why are you being defensive all of a sudden ?

anyway ... can't help that.

All electromagnetic radiation form what ever source, and belonging to what ever range of spectrum has a property.
The strength of radiation varies inversely to the square of the distance apart.
Now, with lasers you have an added problem of spectrum shifting, and the spread.
A laser which is produced through an aperture of 10mm at source, will be more than that once the target is 100 km away, and even wider when it is 27000 km away.

Thus you have loss of power due to the distance apart, and due to spread.

third problem to produce lasers which are restricted to a certain wavelength only.
say you produce a laser with a wave length of 1m, what that means really is that 99.9999 % will be 1 m, and there will be a small fraction which will be more or less than 1m. ( the numbers and fractions are fictitious, but you get the idea)
This problem is seriously exaggerated as the wavelengths keep getting shorter and shorter.

Technology has not progressed enough to produce materials as yet, of obtaining accuracies of that kind.

So, now when you know the above three ( and there are plenty more problems) you will be skeptical of these articles that you quoted.

The message i wanted to convey is, do not quote or believe some thing just because it was on the internet.

We can spend more time on this forum to constructively contribute to the cause of science and our country.

The only thing you are missing here is the distance of spy satellites from earth's surface..Unlike geo stationary satellites which are far far away,a spy satellite is usually in low to medium earth orbit which is 160 to 2000 Km.When a few mega watts are dedicated towards generation of laser light,most of the obstructions you mention here can be dealt with.Unlike an airborne laser or satellite based lase which have technical difficulties in obtaining a power source of megawatt range..a ground based laser can have as many megawatts as they want.

 

[Sinnerman108]

Guys, for God's holy sake ....

Here a simple example, I am sure every one of you has a car by now .. except for the junior trotters.

It takes a potential difference of 5000 V to break the air insulation and make the spark jump 1cm cube.

Think of what kind of power we are talking about ..

and you are talking about doing magical stuff in the radius of kilo meters !

Santro .... Taimi ... U two, U too ?

 

[Safriz]

Guys, for God's holy sake ....

Here a simple example, I am sure every one of you has a car by now .. except for the junior trotters.

It takes a potential difference of 5000 V to break the air insulation and make the spark jump 1cm cube.

Think of what kind of power we are talking about ..

and you are talking about doing magical stuff in the radius of kilo meters !

Santro .... Taimi ... U two, U too ?

Again you are missing the whole point..EMP is not about direct transfer of energy..Its an induction of current via electromagnetic energy....why do you think your radio crackles in a lightening storm?
The thunderbolt didn't hit you,but still the radio makes funny noises?

 

[TaimiKhan]

Guys, for God's holy sake ....

Here a simple example, I am sure every one of you has a car by now .. except for the junior trotters.

It takes a potential difference of 5000 V to break the air insulation and make the spark jump 1cm cube.

Think of what kind of power we are talking about ..

and you are talking about doing magical stuff in the radius of kilo meters !

Santro .... Taimi ... U two, U too ?

Well as you can see, i clearly said, may be in future something of this nature or some other device or may be some other less demanding method or device is created which can generate EMP, may be not at a huge scale, on a smaller scale.

It may be not doable presently or in near future, but may be a decade or more later, we see something new in this field, a lot of things which were not even believable a few years/decades back, are now a reality, so why not in the EMP field.

Just as an example, we did see how EMP can be used on a specific area in the movie Transformer 2, where the communication system is fried. So may be in future we see small devices which can do EMP bursts in a specific area.

 

[kashith]

Well as you can see, i clearly said, may be in future something of this nature or some other device or may be some other less demanding method or device is created which can generate EMP, may be not at a huge scale, on a smaller scale.

It may be not doable presently or in near future, but may be a decade or more later, we see something new in this field, a lot of things which were not even believable a few years/decades back, are now a reality, so why not in the EMP field.

Just as an example, we did see how EMP can be used on a specific area in the movie Transformer 2, where the communication system is fried. So may be in future we see small devices which can do EMP bursts in a specific area.

In Transformers, it was an EMP burst by an alien robot, and we cannot estimate the power required from that.may be a chemical, one shot EMP be built, although that would be still bulky,
There is no way EMP can be reduced in size , unless we go into nano technology and build better batteries.

 

[Sinnerman108]

Again you are missing the whole point..EMP is not about direct transfer of energy..Its an induction of current via electromagnetic energy....why do you think your radio crackles in a lightening storm?
The thunderbolt didn't hit you,but still the radio makes funny noises?

If I answer this, you will complain that I bash you !

Those who needed to understand, have understood.

The power of MW, SW, LW, is in milli watts, and the reason we hear crackling (noise) is because of signal distortion caused by the Charge in the clouds.

Do you have any idea, what kind of charge we are talking about ?
remember satellites are built do deal with solar radiation.

Anyway, I can't help your lack of respect for scientific tradition.

 

[Safriz]

Afterall you do sound like a school or college student who has all his physics books ready at hand,and all the formulas are fresh in memory..While we completed our education more than a decade ago,so remembering all those calculations and brushing up the memory will be a bit of a struggle..I will leave the calculation part to you.

Now if you watch the video posted by Taimi,and pause it at 2:00, you can clearly see the amount of amperage and voltage involved in this experiment..You being the boffin here may well be able to calculate the amount of energy or may be watts used here?
The energy or current used here is by no means colossal,and yet according to video,its enough to knock out an electric circuit within 54 feet radius. Now imagine a nuclear bomb with many megatons of explosive power.
The EMP was there even in project Manhattan,and the main issue is not the production of EMP..Its about using most of the energy in a nuclear blast for generating an electromagnetic pulse instead of heat and light,and pointing it in a particular direction.
In a Neutron bomb a similar issue had been overcome through experimentation..A neutron bomb i essentially a nuclear device in which instead of producing light and heat,most of the energy is used in generating radiation.Same can be done with experimentation for an EMP.

 

[Safriz]

If I answer this, you will complain that I bash you !

Those who needed to understand, have understood.

The power of MW, SW, LW, is in milli watts, and the reason we hear crackling (noise) is because of signal distortion caused by the Charge in the clouds.

Do you have any idea, what kind of charge we are talking about ?
remember satellites are built do deal with solar radiation.

Anyway, I can't help your lack of respect for scientific tradition.

I will ignore your rants and concentrate on the technical bits.
Satellites are built to resist solar radiation,but we are talking about blinding a camera which sees visible light by producing a large concentrated visible light in the form of visible laser.The camera does not see the whole of the electromagnetic spectrum,and solar radiation may not be of much significance to an optical camera.

I gave the example of crackle in radio,because you were on about jumping sparks in air..which is conduction and that needs far more energy than induction..Thats not what EMP is meant to do..The example of crackling in radio was an example of induced and not conducted energy.

 

[Safriz]

In Transformers, it was an EMP burst by an alien robot, and we cannot estimate the power required from that.may be a chemical, one shot EMP be built, although that would be still bulky,
There is no way EMP can be reduced in size , unless we go into nano technology and build better batteries.

Cant differ when a Decepticon is answering the question

 

[SQ8]

Salman.. go through my post again..
that device I mentioned relies on pushing magnetic flux out..
here.. even wiki has an article on it.(Im not completely convinced by the claims it makes)
Explosively pumped flux compression generator - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Whether this can be of any operational use.. is another matter.