Should Muslim nations arm the Palestinians if peace talks fail?

[jaibi]

@Hazzy997
I am talking of civic strength, not whole sale immigration. Palestinians educated here then going back.
No, wars are disrupted sociological events civics is a hard permanent mover.

 

[Falcon29]

The Palestinian Genocide By Israel By Professor Francis A. Boyle


The Palestinians have been the victims of genocide as defined by the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. I say that because of my practical experience: On 8 April 1993 and 13 September 1993 I single-handedly won two World Court Orders on the basis of the 1948 Genocide Convention that were overwhelmingly in favor of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina against Yugoslavia to cease and desist from committing all acts of genocide against the Bosnians in violation of the 1948 Genocide Convention. This was the first time ever that any Government had won two such Orders in one case since the World Court was founded in 1921. On 5August 1993 I also won a so-called Article 74(4) World Court Order for Bosnia against Yugoslavia for genocide. According to I.C.J. Statute Article 74(4), when the full World Court is not in session in The Hague, the President of the Court exercises the full powers of the Court and can issue an Order to the parties in a lawsuit that is legally binding upon them.

Article II of the Genocide Convention defines the international crime of genocide in relevant part as follows:

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group such as:

(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

As documented by Israeli historian Ilan Pappe in his seminal book The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine (2006), Israel’s genocidal policy against the Palestinians has been unremitting, extending from before the very foundation of the State of Israel in 1948, and is ongoing and even now intensifying against the 1.75 million Palestinians living in Gaza as this Tribunal convenes here today. As Pappe’s analysis established, Zionism’s “final solution” to Israel’s much-touted and racist “demographic threat” allegedly posed by the very existence of the Palestinians has always been genocide, whether slow-motion or in blood-thirsty spurts of violence. Indeed, the very essence of Zionism requires ethnic cleansing and acts of genocide against the Palestinians. For example, concerning the 2008-2009 Israeli slaughter of Palestinians in Gaza – so-called Operation Cast-lead -- U.N. General Assembly President Miguel d’Escoto Brockmann, the former Foreign Minister of Nicaragua during the Reagan administration’s contra-terror war of aggression against that country which was condemned by the World Court, condemned it as “genocide.”[1]

Certainly, Israel and its predecessors-in-law—the Zionist agencies, forces, and terrorist gangs—have committed genocide against the Palestinian people that actually started on or about 1948 and has continued apace until today in violation of Genocide Convention Articles II(a), (b), and (c). For over the past six and one-half decades, the Israeli government and its predecessors-in-law—the Zionist agencies, forces, and terrorist gangs—have ruthlessly implemented a systematic and comprehensive military, political, religious, economic, and cultural campaign with the intent to destroy in substantial part the national, ethnical, racial, and different religious group (Jews versus Muslims and Christians) constituting the Palestinian people. This Zionist/Israeli campaign has consisted of killing members of the Palestinian people in violation of Genocide Convention Article II(a). This Zionist/Israeli campaign has also caused serious bodily and mental harm to the Palestinian people in violation of Genocide Convention Article II(b). This Zionist/Israeli campaign has also deliberately inflicted on the Palestinian people conditions of life calculated to bring about their physical destruction in substantial part in violation of Article II(c) of the Genocide Convention.

Nevertheless, apologists for Israel have argued that since these mass atrocities are not tantamount to the Nazi Holocaust against the Jews, therefore they do not qualify as “genocide.” Previously, I had encountered and refuted this completely disingenuous, deceptive and bogus argument against labeling genocide for what it truly is, when I was the Lawyer for the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina arguing their genocide case against Yugoslavia before the International Court of Justice. There the genocidal Yugoslavia was represented by Shabtai Rosenne from Israel as their Lawyer against me. Rosenne proceeded to argue to the World Court that since he was an Israeli Jew, what Yugoslavia had done to the Bosnians was not the equivalent of the Nazi Holocaust against the Jews and therefore did not qualify as “genocide” within the meaning of the 1948 Genocide Convention.

I rebutted Rosenne by arguing to the World Court that you did not need an equivalent to the Nazi Holocaust against the Jews in order to find that wholesale atrocities against a civilian population constitute “genocide” in violation of the 1948 Genocide Convention. Indeed the entire purpose of the 1948 Genocide Convention was to prevent another Nazi Holocaust against the Jews. That is why Article I of the Genocide Convention clearly provided: “The Contracting Parties confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law which they undertake to prevent and to punish.” (Emphasis supplied.) You did not need six million dead human beings in order to constitute “genocide.”

................

@Hazzy997
I am talking of civic strength, not whole sale immigration. Palestinians educated here then going back.
No, wars are disrupted sociological events civics is a hard permanent mover.

Palestinians are educated people, more educated than most Arabs. I'm not sure that could play a factor anyways, they're still powerless since the world sanctions israeli occupation.

Please give me one example where a conflict with a similar context wasn't solved by force?

 

[Solomon2]

The Palestinian Genocide By Israel By Professor Francis A. Boyle

The Palestinians have been the victims of genocide as defined by the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. I say that because of my practical experience: On 8 April 1993 and 13 September 1993 I single-handedly won two World Court Orders on the basis of the 1948 Genocide Convention that were overwhelmingly in favor of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina against Yugoslavia to cease and desist from committing all acts of genocide against the Bosnians in violation of the 1948 Genocide Convention.

Boyle skirts around the fact that his efforts to argue the same about Israel have failed in the courts. Boyle also argues that Hawaii is illegally occupied by the U.S.A. That you rest the anti-Israel case on a man who is so selective of fact and international law should be an additional indication to you of how weak the "Palestinian genocide" arguments are.

 

[jaibi]

The Palestinian Genocide By Israel By Professor Francis A. Boyle


The Palestinians have been the victims of genocide as defined by the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. I say that because of my practical experience: On 8 April 1993 and 13 September 1993 I single-handedly won two World Court Orders on the basis of the 1948 Genocide Convention that were overwhelmingly in favor of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina against Yugoslavia to cease and desist from committing all acts of genocide against the Bosnians in violation of the 1948 Genocide Convention. This was the first time ever that any Government had won two such Orders in one case since the World Court was founded in 1921. On 5August 1993 I also won a so-called Article 74(4) World Court Order for Bosnia against Yugoslavia for genocide. According to I.C.J. Statute Article 74(4), when the full World Court is not in session in The Hague, the President of the Court exercises the full powers of the Court and can issue an Order to the parties in a lawsuit that is legally binding upon them.

Article II of the Genocide Convention defines the international crime of genocide in relevant part as follows:

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group such as:

(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

As documented by Israeli historian Ilan Pappe in his seminal book The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine (2006), Israel’s genocidal policy against the Palestinians has been unremitting, extending from before the very foundation of the State of Israel in 1948, and is ongoing and even now intensifying against the 1.75 million Palestinians living in Gaza as this Tribunal convenes here today. As Pappe’s analysis established, Zionism’s “final solution” to Israel’s much-touted and racist “demographic threat” allegedly posed by the very existence of the Palestinians has always been genocide, whether slow-motion or in blood-thirsty spurts of violence. Indeed, the very essence of Zionism requires ethnic cleansing and acts of genocide against the Palestinians. For example, concerning the 2008-2009 Israeli slaughter of Palestinians in Gaza – so-called Operation Cast-lead -- U.N. General Assembly President Miguel d’Escoto Brockmann, the former Foreign Minister of Nicaragua during the Reagan administration’s contra-terror war of aggression against that country which was condemned by the World Court, condemned it as “genocide.”[1]

Certainly, Israel and its predecessors-in-law—the Zionist agencies, forces, and terrorist gangs—have committed genocide against the Palestinian people that actually started on or about 1948 and has continued apace until today in violation of Genocide Convention Articles II(a), (b), and (c). For over the past six and one-half decades, the Israeli government and its predecessors-in-law—the Zionist agencies, forces, and terrorist gangs—have ruthlessly implemented a systematic and comprehensive military, political, religious, economic, and cultural campaign with the intent to destroy in substantial part the national, ethnical, racial, and different religious group (Jews versus Muslims and Christians) constituting the Palestinian people. This Zionist/Israeli campaign has consisted of killing members of the Palestinian people in violation of Genocide Convention Article II(a). This Zionist/Israeli campaign has also caused serious bodily and mental harm to the Palestinian people in violation of Genocide Convention Article II(b). This Zionist/Israeli campaign has also deliberately inflicted on the Palestinian people conditions of life calculated to bring about their physical destruction in substantial part in violation of Article II(c) of the Genocide Convention.

Nevertheless, apologists for Israel have argued that since these mass atrocities are not tantamount to the Nazi Holocaust against the Jews, therefore they do not qualify as “genocide.” Previously, I had encountered and refuted this completely disingenuous, deceptive and bogus argument against labeling genocide for what it truly is, when I was the Lawyer for the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina arguing their genocide case against Yugoslavia before the International Court of Justice. There the genocidal Yugoslavia was represented by Shabtai Rosenne from Israel as their Lawyer against me. Rosenne proceeded to argue to the World Court that since he was an Israeli Jew, what Yugoslavia had done to the Bosnians was not the equivalent of the Nazi Holocaust against the Jews and therefore did not qualify as “genocide” within the meaning of the 1948 Genocide Convention.

I rebutted Rosenne by arguing to the World Court that you did not need an equivalent to the Nazi Holocaust against the Jews in order to find that wholesale atrocities against a civilian population constitute “genocide” in violation of the 1948 Genocide Convention. Indeed the entire purpose of the 1948 Genocide Convention was to prevent another Nazi Holocaust against the Jews. That is why Article I of the Genocide Convention clearly provided: “The Contracting Parties confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law which they undertake to prevent and to punish.” (Emphasis supplied.) You did not need six million dead human beings in order to constitute “genocide.”

................



Palestinians are educated people, more educated than most Arabs. I'm not sure that could play a factor anyways, they're still powerless since the world sanctions israeli occupation.

Please give me one example where a conflict with a similar context wasn't solved by force?

The strength of Israel is itself an example : had the Jewish population not been educated prior to WWII Israel would never have become strong enough even with Western support. Now if Palestinians have good jobs, investments to and from the rest of the Muslim world it creates a stronger force than any army. What would the criticism be on then? When doctors, engineers, teachers, scientists are protesting? Secondly, knowledge based.economies produce more independence : a reason why most muslim nations pay lip service to Palestinians os because they are dependent on the West economically - especially in the field of expertise. Nearly all major science journals are in Western nations, brightest minds go to and often are retained by them.
For change to be seen a critical mass has to be achieved and that will come slowly and.steadily.

 

[Falcon29]

PDF of Israeli offensive against Gaza in 2009 in which 230 Palestinians and thousands others were injured during the first day of the offensive by amnesty International. Please read folks here as this will help you understand why Palestinians reserve the right to defend themselves.

http://www.icawc.net/fonds/02_07_09_gaza_report.pdf

The strength of Israel is itself an example : had the Jewish population not been educated prior to WWII Israel would never have become strong enough even with Western support. Now if Palestinians have good jobs, investments to and from the rest of the Muslim world it creates a stronger force than any army. What would the criticism be on then? When doctors, engineers, teachers, scientists are protesting? Secondly, knowledge based.economies produce more independence : a reason why most muslim nations pay lip service to Palestinians os because they are dependent on the West economically - especially in the field of expertise. Nearly all major science journals are in Western nations, brightest minds go to and often are retained by them.
For change to be seen a critical mass has to be achieved and that will come slowly and.steadily.

We have plenty of doctors, engineers and teachers, that doesn't play a factor. For change to be seen international law needs to be implemented. No matter how many times Palestinians protest or how much awareness is spread it won't matter as long as we are under an occupation which prevents us from being able to operate freely, run social order, have economic freedom or run industries. Israel doesn't want us to be allowed that freedom they want the jobs to go to Israeli companies and prevent the Palestinians from economic equality let alone have the functions of a state. How would change be seen if Israel occupies Palestinian land and controls our borders, security, economy, even take our water resources and control border crossings?

And for my question, I was referring to an conflict, I personally haven't seen a conflict solved in my life. It's only the stronger power completely getting a free pass by international law and dominating everything with little that the opposition can do or a complete surrender by the opposition.

 

[Falcon29]

Please go to page 14 on this PDF for details of the Israeli offensive against Gaza during 2009 to see whether Israeli claims hold up to the truth and whether Israel targets civilians or not.

http://www.icawc.net/fonds/02_07_09_gaza_report.pdf

 

[Solomon2]

http://www.icawc.net/fonds/02_07_09_gaza_report.pdf

Hazzy, you know that most of this stuff is icawc stuff is garbage; they hardly address the 130,000 dead in Syria at all! The Israelis aren't going around wontonly killing people. Their troops don't raid houses to drag their occupants from motorcycles with ropes, or break their legs, or throw flammables upon them from aircraft, or throw them off buildings. Even in the Gaza offensive, which targeted rocket-launcing sites and terrorists. You know that under international law the criminals are those who employed civilians as human shields. You should know that under international law the difference between a war crime and an accident or carelessness is one of intent, either provable directly or suggested by statistics. And you should have figured out by now that while the Syrian regime and groups like Hamas easily, quickly, and substantially earned and merit the label of war criminal, labeling the Jews of Israel as such is baseless.

Obviously, shipping more arms to Gaza isn't going to empower any kind of "freedom" of Arabs subjected to Hamas tyranny. The great hope for improving the Palestinian condition is military weakness. That's what bought the Oslo negotiations and the first few prosperous and comparatively free years of the Palestinian Authority.

 

[Solomon2]

Shabbas starts soon...Hazzy, I urge you to think carefully about whether you can do more for your people by opposing Israel or by supporting Israel, or at least placing human rights ahead of falsehoods and bigotry. Some of the Egyptian democracy activists made that leap of faith and accomplished not one but two revolutions. Hamas, etc. are deprived of much external support now, so even a small movement against them has the potential to accomplish much.

When (or "when and if", if you prefer) you do switch sides, you might want to consider doing so as loudly and publicly as possible. For the publicity that will come from the shock value and to protect your relatives at home by highlighting their plight and turning the tables on Hamas, holding the terror group responsible for their safety - or else.

 

[Falcon29]

Solomon, it's not garbage, it goes over every single detail of the Israeli offensive with facts, eye witnesses, statements and responses by the Israeli military and Palestinian fighters. It cites specific instances and examples accurately. I urge everybody to take a look at it. I'm not sure what brought Syria into this but I doubt anybody is in dispute in regards to Syria especially when it comes to humanitarian organizations.

If you want to deflect criticism do so by citing evidence to the contrary, that's something the Israeli military didn't do.

@Solomon2

 

[Falcon29]

Shabbas starts soon...Hazzy, I urge you to think carefully about whether you can do more for your people by opposing Israel or by supporting Israel, or at least placing human rights ahead of falsehoods and bigotry. Some of the Egyptian democracy activists made that leap of faith and accomplished not one but two revolutions. Hamas, etc. are deprived of much external support now, so even a small movement against them has the potential to accomplish much.

When (or "when and if", if you prefer) you do switch sides, you might want to consider doing so as loudly and publicly as possible. For the publicity that will come from the shock value and to protect your relatives at home by highlighting their plight and turning the tables on Hamas, holding the terror group responsible for their safety - or else.

This is proof that you acknowledge Israel makes life for Palestinians a misery in order for them to submit to the occupation and give up their cause and plight for their land. You're telling us the lives of Palestinians will improve if they submit to the Israeli occupation of their land. This must also mean you're acknowledging Israel exercises control over many aspects of Palestinian life therefore that goes against your previous claim that Palestinian lands aren't occupied. If you're claiming that life will improve significantly if Palestinians submit to Israel then that indicates Israel exercise control to aspects which impact quality of life and that's what defines an occupation. So Israel is also responsible for allowing goods and medicines to enter Palestinian land since they occupy it.

 

[Sinnerman108]

Of course two Saudi Arabians would thank your post. Full of hatred towards Palestinians but even funnier because it's makes us want to to talk about Pakistani and Saudi Arabian military achievements.

Saudi Arabia is becoming increasingly unpopular in the Arabic world the people are waking up.

See sweet heart;
you may curse my self, or @Yzd Khalifa or @Arabian Legend in this.

Truth of the matter is that in Saudi there are millions of Pallys ... and I have not seen a single one ever talk about
their land, or their struggle ; leave alone do anything about it.

Truth of the matter is, that they are busy making money, and fooling people with their fake educational credentials.
fake experience of doing X-Y-Z in some Jordanian company,

These people are not made by design to fight. Pallys represent the most racist, the most lazy people I have ever seen.

 

[Falcon29]

See sweet heart;
you may curse my self, or @Yzd Khalifa or @Arabian Legend in this.

Truth of the matter is that in Saudi there are millions of Pallys ... and I have not seen a single one ever talk about
their land, or their struggle ; leave alone do anything about it.

Truth of the matter is, that they are busy making money, and fooling people with their fake educational credentials.
fake experience of doing X-Y-Z in some Jordanian company,

These people are not made by design to fight. Pallys represent the most racist, the most lazy people I have ever seen.

You know a couple Palestinians in Saudi Arabia and come to conclusions based off that...when you're probably an isolated person with connections to any Arab people.

Truth is this is a dumb rant that's not at all related to the thread, in every nationality not all people take politics seriously all reflect upon their culture. Most racist and lazy based on what?

Go clean more bathrooms you pathetic maid.

 

[Arabian Legend]

See sweet heart;
you may curse my self, or @Yzd Khalifa or @Arabian Legend in this.

Truth of the matter is that in Saudi there are millions of Pallys ... and I have not seen a single one ever talk about
their land, or their struggle ; leave alone do anything about it.

Truth of the matter is, that they are busy making money, and fooling people with their fake educational credentials.
fake experience of doing X-Y-Z in some Jordanian company,

These people are not made by design to fight. Pallys represent the most racist, the most lazy people I have ever seen.

Spot on my friend. The Palllys themselves don't give a flying **** about Palestine. There are disunited within each other, fighting each other yet they have the audacity to point finger at others. The Saudis don't give a **** about Palestine either and I'm sure you fully know that. I also want KSA government to stop writing blank checks every now and then for such ungrateful people. As long as the Mosque is intact we are satisfied and for the Pallys they go pound sand for all we care. The one you are quoting is living in the west if he had any feeling toward his country he would be fighting for it by now.

 

[Falcon29]

Spot on my friend. The Palllys themselves don't give a flying **** about Palestine. There are disunited within each other, fighting each other yet they have the audacity to point finger at others. The Saudis don't give a **** about Palestine either and I'm sure you fully know that. I also want KSA government to stop writing blank checks every now and then for such ungrateful people. As long as the Mosque is intact we are satisfied and for the Pallys they go pound sand for all we care. The one you are quoting is living in the west if he had any feeling toward his country he would be fighting for it by now.

Saudis aren't government stooges like you, in the next decade the Saudi ruling party won't survive and they know it very well. You only speak your opinion which has nothing to do with the conflict at all and all to do with your personal grievances. Of course in your world it's about ethnicity and you that's not surprising since you completely ignore the message of Islam. Muslims regardless of ethnicity care for all Muslim land and Muslim relations. Obviously, the the ruling party in Saudi Arabia doesn't know how to influence events in the Arabic world as they've not made much a difference in Lebanon or Syria or Yemen as they claim they're involved in proxy wars with Iran. Money makes all people arrogant such as you and nationalistic. I'd rather have a world where we do things for our dignity and not for brownie points from multiple nationalities. That's how your Prophet was, you're nothing close to your prophet, you're born in Saudi Arabia yet very materliastic secular person, I'm born in the US yet at such a young age have understood the message of Islam better than you have. I don't need to fight either, there are more than enough fighters that's not my role. Neither do you represent any Saudis and probably don't even have friends in your own country. You're a iteration of an idiot I'm starting to feel bad for you.

 

[jaibi]

Hazzy, I can see only one direction for the resolution of our conflicts and that is to beat the West at its own game. That would come solely via economic and civic strength. We may have 'enough' doctors, engineers, and professionals but see knowledge is itself a social force and though it takes more time to come into play; when it does, it does more than any gun or jet could ever do.

PDF of Israeli offensive against Gaza in 2009 in which 230 Palestinians and thousands others were injured during the first day of the offensive by amnesty International. Please read folks here as this will help you understand why Palestinians reserve the right to defend themselves.

http://www.icawc.net/fonds/02_07_09_gaza_report.pdf



We have plenty of doctors, engineers and teachers, that doesn't play a factor. For change to be seen international law needs to be implemented. No matter how many times Palestinians protest or how much awareness is spread it won't matter as long as we are under an occupation which prevents us from being able to operate freely, run social order, have economic freedom or run industries. Israel doesn't want us to be allowed that freedom they want the jobs to go to Israeli companies and prevent the Palestinians from economic equality let alone have the functions of a state. How would change be seen if Israel occupies Palestinian land and controls our borders, security, economy, even take our water resources and control border crossings?

And for my question, I was referring to an conflict, I personally haven't seen a conflict solved in my life. It's only the stronger power completely getting a free pass by international law and dominating everything with little that the opposition can do or a complete surrender by the opposition.