Should India have followed Chinese & Pakistani weapons development model

[Rangila]

The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) was set up in 1958 with a vision to "provide our defence services a decisive edge by equipping them with internationally competitive systems and solutions". The DRDO has clearly failed in its mission. There seems to be inherent problems with the functioning of these organizations, their performance of delivery has been dismal, their failures many, the cost escalations prodigious, their obsessive indulgence in irrelevant and peripheral activities and their several technological misadventures which directly impacted India's defence preparedness & strategic positioning.


It has been over five decades since its inception that DRDO and its agencies have been clambering to provide viable defence equipment as an alternative to overseas procurement, the defence forces addiction to foreign purchase is not out of habit but was forced to resort to off-the-shelf panic buying whenever they realised that the strategic balance was tilting in favour of their adversaries.


Extremely unhappy about the current state of affairs, Prime Minister Modi had put DRDO on notice in August 2014. The PM had asked the tardy organisations to shape-up in the face of competition from the private sector. The Prime Minister had asked the defence minister to conduct a detailed review of the organisation, and if need be come out with a white paper on it.


Modi personally delivered a stern message to DRDO, asking the officers to give up their "chalta hai" (lackadaisical) attitude. This is the first time the nation's PM had directly reprimanded DRDO.

The Ministry of Defence should enforce ruthless accountability, centralized reporting structure as in the case of ISRO and create effective management competence within DRDO to ensure fruitful collaboration with the private sector defence industry.


THE PAKISTANI MODEL

Pakistan, our main adversary has had tremendous success with its missile program. It coordinated a shrewd & pragmatic approach with China the other bad guy in our firmament to achieve its goals 'by methods, fair or foul', while our path was to develop indigenously all complex weapon platforms. Pakistan's aim was to leapfrog as well as piggyback technologically, as reinventing the wheel was not necessarily an answer to the yawning technological gap that existed between India. Their initial attempts to develop ballistic missiles were comical disasters, the HATF-1 series developed by Pakistan space agency SUPARCO not only proved to be unreliable but woefully inaccurate. The program was abandoned after many trial fiascoes as Pakistan did not have the industrial or the technological base to pursue such a sophisticated program. They quickly realized that wasting time on complex weapons development will only elevate their vulnerability. Therefore, they purchased ballistic missiles of various class to counter India's progress in this field. Their determination to procure capabilities far beyond their reach was a canny operation, China & North Korea were ready to violate the Missile Technology Control Regime to provide Pakistan with long-range ballistic missiles capable of carrying nuclear weapons. Pakistanis are masters in convoluted psychological games, they exploited China's hostile disposition against India to their own advantage. They have followed the adage "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" to the dot.


It is another thing that the Pakistanis has been mouthing off the much maligned "indigenous" word, the world is well aware that their defence equipment are outright purchases from abroad and re-badged with Pakistani nomenclature.

Here is a list of missile systems procured from abroad and claimed to be "indigenous":

The Argument
As an illustration, Kalibr is a Russian surface ship and Submarine-launched Anti-Ship and Land Attack Cruise Missile developed by the Novator Design Bureau. The Kalibr has a coincidental resemblance to DRDO's lumbering Nirbhay program, mainly due to the physics of a cruise missile's aerodynamics conformation, hence this author contends that India should have clandestinely purchased these missiles from Russia (who would have willingly supplied the same) painted it in shades of gray and presented to the world as the indigenous Nirbhay. A patently easy job to achieve. Coming to the question of why India did not undertake such a course is entirely due to its purist mindset and obduracy and in addition was the pomposity to achieve the inconceivable.


THE CHINESE MODEL

The Chinese followed a different model altogether, they have thrived on plagiarism and reverse engineering, mainly on equipment originating from Russia, but off late they showed fearless daring to to scoop design blueprints from the Americans notably the hacking of F-35 Lightning II stealth fighter schematics.

Why are the Chinese so dedicated to copying and employing newfangled methods to get information on almost anything from western and other sources? It is presumably a cultural thing. Historically, Chinese folklore propounds that copying is a way of showing respect for human mastery over Science, Technology and the Arts. As an illustration, the Chinese painter and critic Hsieh Ho from the 5th Century AD formulated the "Six Principles of Painting", which included a tenet "to convey and change by patterned representation", which translates subtly "to transmit by copying".


The Chinese have scant regard to infringement of International intellectual property rights or innovating on other people’s creativity. Bootlegging technology in every sphere of scientific development is a well-honed Chinese practice, and it is diligently backed up by massive government funding and logistics support.

The Argument

India should have adopted the same method to develop its defence requirements, the list of possibilities are myriad such as whole aircraft, drones, missiles & rockets, turbofan engines, radars, armored fighting vehicles, infantry arms, naval assets or even spacecrafts, but India did not explore this potential solution.

CONCLUSION
It is next to impossible to conceive the ideal model for adoption as far as India is concerned, but they have proved to be effective in the Chinese and Pakistani context. Pakistan has an arsenal of missile to address its strategic needs, how they got them is not the question but how it is deployed as a deterrence factor is of paramount importance. China is posing grave threats to not only its neighbors but also to the sole superpower in the world the U.S. by means of its offensive weapons capabilities. Pakistan has been bellicose over India due to this singular fact and its trigger happy generals have ensured them this status. As per the view of this author, our policy makers have followed a fallacious system of weapons developed which has neither consolidated or enhanced the infrastructural constitution of our armed forces.

 

[airmarshal]

Ok! So whats your point?

The author is apparently miffed at Pakistan's success. There is very strong whiff of jealousy in the article.

Now tell me whose model of development is better? India. Which has been reinventing the wheel since 1958 with nothing to show or Pakistan which has a viable missile, tank and missile manufacturing base?

 

[Path-Finder]

I loved the article and in a bitesize. by dwarfing others one can stand 6ft Tall!

 

[xyxmt]

Ok! So whats your point?

The author is apparently miffed at Pakistan's success. There is very strong whiff of jealousy in the article.

Now tell me whose model of development is better? India. Which has been reinventing the wheel since 1958 with nothing to show or Pakistan which has a viable missile, tank and missile manufacturing base?

Author's point is all of Pakistani Missiles looks like North Korean and hence they are bought from north koreans.
then author support his point buy arguing himself and himself answering childishly to his stupid argument such as:

Agrument: Kalibr is a Russian surface ship and Submarine-launched Anti-Ship and Land Attack Cruise Missile developed by the Novator Design Bureau.
conclusion: The Kalibr has a coincidental resemblance to DRDO's lumbering Nirbhay program, mainly due to the physics of a cruise missile's aerodynamics conformation.

lmaoooooooooffffff
the quality of Indian experts

 

[simple Brain]

Their initial attempts to develop ballistic missiles were comical disasters, the HATF-1 series developed by Pakistan space agency SUPARCO not only proved to be unreliable but woefully inaccurate.

First of all it was never a failure. We have had so much success with HATF-1 program that we continued it for further advancements, and the proof of that is upgraded version of HATF missile, HATF IV, with an increase range and increase in payload with more accurate target execution, the result is that every and each system is in operational mode as of today.

The program was abandoned after many trial fiascoes as Pakistan did not have the industrial or the technological base to pursue such a sophisticated program.

As I said earlier, the program is still operational with its full and much upgraded capabilities. I do not know from where did this guy got this information.

They quickly realized that wasting time on complex weapons development will only elevate their vulnerability. Therefore, they purchased ballistic missiles of various class to counter India's progress in this field. Their determination to procure capabilities far beyond their reach was a canny operation, China & North Korea were ready to violate the Missile Technology Control Regime to provide Pakistan with long-range ballistic missiles capable of carrying nuclear weapons.

It took us almost 4 and a half decades to achieve what we are today, if it was china that we needed to procure our complex weapons than I don't think we needed Kahuta and other research facilities, we simply would have stocked as many missiles as we wanted ready made from China. I really want to know who has written this article, I used to think that are Indians the dumbest Nation of this Planet of earth? but now I am quite confident that yes indeed they are, the results are in front of you. And you always mocked at us that we have receieved some critical data from North korea in order to boost our Nuclear program, the truth is that our Nuclear Program started before even North Korea was trying to train its People.

The North Korean nuclear program can roughly be divided into four phases. Phase I (1956–80) dealt primarily with training and gaining basic knowledge. Phase II (1980–94) covers the growth and eventual suspension of North Korea’s domestic plutonium production program. Phase III (1994–2002) covers the period of the "nuclear freeze" and Phase IV (2002–present) covers the current period of renewed nuclear activities.

Pakistanis are masters in convoluted psychological games, they exploited China's hostile disposition against India to their own advantage.

lol first of all our good relations with China are not because we both hate Indians and that we have fought wars with India. But, because we are not a hostile Nation. We do not block borders of our Neighbors, despite whatever the circumstances are, despite how worse our relations can get, despite our Neighbors accommodate and train terrorists to sabotage our peace with the help of our another neighbor. We do not interfere in our neighbors Politics neither in their constitutional amendments. And there are hundreds of other things that I can mention here, but for that you need a neutral brain, unfortunately Indians have always been in a shortage of it.

They have followed the adage "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" to the dot.

Just like India and Israel has followed the adage, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend"? Unfortunately, no we haven't. If we had, we would have never struggled for the peace process. China and Pakistan would have never invested in India, and their would have have been no trade of any kind.

It is another thing that the Pakistanis has been mouthing off the much maligned "indigenous" word, the world is well aware that their defence equipment are outright purchases from abroad and re-badged with Pakistani nomenclature.

lol its funny, in order to hide your own failure you cannot simply digest that Pakistan has without any doubt surpassed you in Deference capabilities.

China is posing grave threats to not only its neighbors but also to the sole superpower in the world the U.S. by means of its offensive weapons capabilities.

When did you last heard that China threatened her neighboring Countries with dire consequences? India is a growing threat for not only China but for the entire world, yet China has never threatened India directly or indirectly, infect China has on several occasions advised Pakistan to have a good relations with India, despite of Indian involvement in training and funding terrorists in Baluchistan and in many parts of China.

 

[Chanakyaa]

As if we are not aware of Chinese ( Copy ) Model ?
The fact is, they have done a great deal of advancement in "reverse engineering" , This is indeed a great acievement, but it doesnt really suit India.

 

[desimorty]

Wow this article was a wasted read.
The Pakistani weapon development "model" would be far to short sighted for Indians.
The Chinese one would be too grand. China spends 15 times more on RnD regardless its collaboration with Russians or stolen, reverse engineering solutions.
India can no afford to spend as much as China, nore does it need to. The only model it needs to follow for govt. sanctioned programs and organization is that model of France. Which it trying to do so and will continue to do so.
The name of LCA "Tejas" means radiance in Sanskrit. Fitting because such an project regardless of its success will have a lot of light shined on it by politicians, ministers and nationalist.

lol first of all our good relations with China are not because we both hate Indians and that we have fought wars with India. But, because we are not a hostile Nation. We do not block borders of our Neighbors, despite whatever the circumstances are, despite how worse our relations can get, despite our Neighbors accommodate and train terrorists to sabotage our peace with the help of our another neighbor. We do not interfere in our neighbors Politics neither in their constitutional amendments. And there are hundreds of other things that I can mention here, but for that you need a neutral brain, unfortunately Indians have always been in a shortage of it.

Source: Should India have followed Chinese & Pakistani weapons development model

WTF, no your relations with China are all about India. Its always been about India. It is more today, but still overshadowed by India. The Chinese have only ever engaged other nations like NK Vietnam only when they needed to use their people to kill other people.

Just like India and Israel has followed the adage, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend"? Unfortunately, no we haven't. If we had, we would have never struggled for the peace process. China and Pakistan would have never invested in India, and their would have have been no trade of any kind.

Source: Should India have followed Chinese & Pakistani weapons development model

Israel may or may not. Doesn't matter for Indians. Indians had money, Jews like making money. Racist but accurate. Israel is not going to fight Indias war and India is not going to fight theirs. However, CCP is under the belief that the PA can fight a war for China or atleast bark at the Indians from a better angle than the PLA can.

lol its funny, in order to hide your own failure you cannot simply digest that Pakistan has without any doubt surpassed you in Deference capabilities.

Source: Should India have followed Chinese & Pakistani weapons development model

Hes right for the most part. If China spends 15 times more than India on RnD than rightfully India spends 15 times more than Pakistan on RnD. The result is before you.
Buraq, UAV, off the shelf purchase from China. CCP didn't want terrorists thinking China was bombing them so they played the indigenous story despite knowing the BS. All weather friend needs to protect its reputation as non- interfering state.
JF-17 - PLAAF bailed. First clue. and the CCP offers J-10, second clue.
Al Khalid tank - good project, for Pakistan. Would have been short sighted for India.
So in short, Pakistan defence capabilities are no where near India. Its like India to America. Not much of a comparison.
Also the short falls of Pakistani defence projects are not well known thanks to the LACK of transparency and 1 sided media coverage designed to protect the image of the Pakistani military. This doesn't exist in India. Hence the debates.

When did you last heard that China threatened her neighboring Countries with dire consequences? India is a growing threat for not only China but for the entire world, yet China has never threatened India directly or indirectly, infect China has on several occasions advised Pakistan to have a good relations with India, despite of Indian involvement in training and funding terrorists in Baluchistan and in many parts of China.

Source: Should India have followed Chinese & Pakistani weapons development model

Growing threat for the entire World? India? sure if the entire world is allergic to curry than sure. India dangerous. But i'm pretty sure you got some education issues because India isn't dangerous, to other countries. Its only dangerous to itself. Pakistan OTOH has Clinton said "international migraine".
Pakistan is dangerous state NOT India, hence why the Chinese tell you to make up with India. If India was a threat, i'm sure by now Bangladesh, Nepal and Sri Lanka would have armed up against India with nuclear weapons. Or Vietnam would go with Nukes because of China. But thats not the case. India, China, Vietnam, Japan, and many other countries are NOT interested in war. Diplomacy, talk and economic muscle is how nations do business these days, NOT with guns or terrorists and nuclear threats.
India has said time in again that it has 2ndary nuclear strike capability doctrine. Ie return fire.
Pakistan, NK are the only nations that have threatened publicly to use nuclear weapons as first strike options!
Think about it.

 

[mkb95]

Author's point is all of Pakistani Missiles looks like North Korean and hence they are bought from north koreans.
then author support his point buy arguing himself and himself answering childishly to his stupid argument such as:

Agrument: Kalibr is a Russian surface ship and Submarine-launched Anti-Ship and Land Attack Cruise Missile developed by the Novator Design Bureau.
conclusion: The Kalibr has a coincidental resemblance to DRDO's lumbering Nirbhay program, mainly due to the physics of a cruise missile's aerodynamics conformation.

lmaoooooooooffffff
the quality of Indian experts

here is cbs news reporting on north korea and pakistan connection
ISLAMABAD - Amid mounting tensions between the U.S. and North Korea, U.S. officials are examining a range of North Korean missiles, including the Rodong version once supplied by Pyongyang to Pakistan, senior western diplomats told CBS News.

The standoff in the Korean peninsula has revived memories from the early 1990s when Western officials, including the U.S., discovered North Korea supplied the Rodong missile to Pakistan, arming the south Asian country with the capacity to deliver nuclear bombs.

Pakistan became a nuclear power in 1998, after it carried out its maiden nuclear tests just three weeks after India carried out its own tests. According to defense experts who discussed Pakistan's missile program with CBS News in the past, the Rodong was built with old-styled Soviet technology. Pakistan subsequently made improvements on the original design by increasing its range and improving its targeting systems.
According to two senior European diplomats with past experience of serving in east Asia, U.S. officials are trying to establish the extent to which the North Korean missiles could pose a threat to U.S. territory. Toward that end, any knowledge of Pakistan's experience with using North Korean missiles would be helpful, the two diplomats added.

From Washington, a U.S. official who spoke to CBS News on condition of anonymity said, while the "threat is very real," U.S. officials are "primarily concerned about targets closer to North Korea" such as South Korea and Japan.

The official added that it's too early to conclude that North Korea has the ability to launch a strike at the U.S., though he noted "a further escalation [in the conflict] could still make this situation very ugly."

In recent years, the U.S. has been worried about Pakistan's nuclear and missile programs. In 2003, Abdul Qadeer Khan, the founder of Pakistan's nuclear program, was discovered to have traded know-how and technology with Iran, Libya and North Korea.

Subsequent demands from the Western world led by the U.S. for direct access to Khan to interview him on the scale of his work were turned down by Pakistani authorities. However, the Pakistani army has followed up by tightening controls around the program established by Khan, to make certain that there are no new cases of proliferation.

"For the U.S., any information that helps to know how far the North Koreans can strike with their missiles will be critical as tension builds up all around," said one of the two senior European diplomats.

The U.S. official speaking from Washington said the U.S. has so far not made any new requests to Pakistan for information on its past dealings with North Korea.

But the second European diplomat said, "I am pretty certain that people [in the U.S. government] who are looking at the North Korean situation must be asking if lessons from Pakistan's case can help to understand North Korea's missile program."
source- North Korean missile program clues may be in Pakistan - CBS News

Source: Should India have followed Chinese & Pakistani weapons development model
i think u know cbs is american NOT INDIAN and people work there are american NOT INDIAN or maybe raw also controls cbs

 

[Genesis]

here is cbs news reporting on north korea and pakistan connection
ISLAMABAD - Amid mounting tensions between the U.S. and North Korea, U.S. officials are examining a range of North Korean missiles, including the Rodong version once supplied by Pyongyang to Pakistan, senior western diplomats told CBS News.

The standoff in the Korean peninsula has revived memories from the early 1990s when Western officials, including the U.S., discovered North Korea supplied the Rodong missile to Pakistan, arming the south Asian country with the capacity to deliver nuclear bombs.

Pakistan became a nuclear power in 1998, after it carried out its maiden nuclear tests just three weeks after India carried out its own tests. According to defense experts who discussed Pakistan's missile program with CBS News in the past, the Rodong was built with old-styled Soviet technology. Pakistan subsequently made improvements on the original design by increasing its range and improving its targeting systems.
According to two senior European diplomats with past experience of serving in east Asia, U.S. officials are trying to establish the extent to which the North Korean missiles could pose a threat to U.S. territory. Toward that end, any knowledge of Pakistan's experience with using North Korean missiles would be helpful, the two diplomats added.

From Washington, a U.S. official who spoke to CBS News on condition of anonymity said, while the "threat is very real," U.S. officials are "primarily concerned about targets closer to North Korea" such as South Korea and Japan.

The official added that it's too early to conclude that North Korea has the ability to launch a strike at the U.S., though he noted "a further escalation [in the conflict] could still make this situation very ugly."

In recent years, the U.S. has been worried about Pakistan's nuclear and missile programs. In 2003, Abdul Qadeer Khan, the founder of Pakistan's nuclear program, was discovered to have traded know-how and technology with Iran, Libya and North Korea.

Subsequent demands from the Western world led by the U.S. for direct access to Khan to interview him on the scale of his work were turned down by Pakistani authorities. However, the Pakistani army has followed up by tightening controls around the program established by Khan, to make certain that there are no new cases of proliferation.

"For the U.S., any information that helps to know how far the North Koreans can strike with their missiles will be critical as tension builds up all around," said one of the two senior European diplomats.

The U.S. official speaking from Washington said the U.S. has so far not made any new requests to Pakistan for information on its past dealings with North Korea.

But the second European diplomat said, "I am pretty certain that people [in the U.S. government] who are looking at the North Korean situation must be asking if lessons from Pakistan's case can help to understand North Korea's missile program."
source- North Korean missile program clues may be in Pakistan - CBS News

Source: Should India have followed Chinese & Pakistani weapons development model
i think u know cbs is american NOT INDIAN and people work there are american NOT INDIAN or maybe raw also controls cbs

By FARHAN BOKHARI

Certainly sounds American....

 

[raj76]

ROFL problem is no US missile, jet,heli or drone falls in india so we have no option of taking the fallen equipment to china and get a copy of it

 

[Kashmiri Pandit]

At least we are good enough in Scientific achievements like ISRO . As long as we have them , we are bound to develop Natural Weapons Which Pakistanis keep accusing us of

 

[haviZsultan]

Every country has its own military doctrine and its own armament model. There is no reason any country should copy the other. However some recent actions by India in its defence fields certainly reduce its image of how well it is able to defend its land. Most particularly the idea that is build in India is one that is long term and will only see fruition a long time off. In the meantime India will be vulnerable to Pakistani and Chinese might.

 

[Dungeness]

The Chinese followed a different model altogether, they have thrived on plagiarism and reverse engineering, mainly on equipment originating from Russia, but off late they showed fearless daring to to scoop design blueprints from the Americans notably the hacking of F-35 Lightning II stealth fighter schematics.

Why are the Chinese so dedicated to copying and employing newfangled methods to get information on almost anything from western and other sources? It is presumably a cultural thing. Historically, Chinese folklore propounds that copying is a way of showing respect for human mastery over Science, Technology and the Arts. As an illustration, the Chinese painter and critic Hsieh Ho from the 5th Century AD formulated the "Six Principles of Painting", which included a tenet "to convey and change by patterned representation", which translates subtly "to transmit by copying".

Well, it is not like Indian have the higher moral than Chinese and decide not to copy, they just happened to copy the different FIGHTERS:


Chinese "copied" this Fighter:

Indian copied this FIGHTER:

 

[Indian Patriot]

I read some where hat China is the top ammunition producer in the world and Beijing is the second most densely defended city (from air attacks) in the world after Moscow. Can anybody confirm or deny?

 

[tsinga]

Ok! So whats your point?

The author is apparently miffed at Pakistan's success. There is very strong whiff of jealousy in the article.

Now tell me whose model of development is better? India. Which has been reinventing the wheel since 1958 with nothing to show or Pakistan which has a viable missile, tank and missile manufacturing base?

Um perhaps you should read more carefully.

India has a far larger missile & tank manufacturing base. The problem that we are grappling is with indigenous design. License production of tanks and planes have been happening in India for decades and our domestic industrial base is exponentially greater than Pakistan's.

The author here is trying to talk about two things:
1. Strategic systems which we have not been able to induct quickly - that Pakistan does by bypassing development and through purchase. We are unable to do this as fast as required because of the need to develop every technology inhouse. A wastage of time and resources. This is the area where Pakistan beats India in timelines for induction.

2. Moving from a very vast license production industrial base to Indian design platforms. Something Pakistan is not even close to this yet in achieving the scale or depth that India or China have. This is the area where China beats India in development. They have successfully moved from license production to indigenous design and production.

Most particularly the idea that is build in India is one that is long term and will only see fruition a long time off. In the meantime India will be vulnerable to Pakistani and Chinese might.

Once again.
No. Pakistani military even if doubled is not a conventional military threat to India.

China is a military threat, however the geography of our borders ensures that only localized conflict occurs. The Himalayas ensure low or minimum fighting between India and India.