Should discussion be allowed on questions raised by Engineer Muhammad Ali Mirza?

[Areesh]

Deibandi ahnaf may have their own mythical spiritual beings but the majority of indo pak ahnaf like brealvis do consider khizar's metaphysical role in shaping their spirituality. I've been listening fairy tales about this fellow since childhood.

Blame your household for these lies then. Because I am yet to hear it from any hanafi scholar be it deobandi or barelvi

 

[Mentee]

Blame your household for these lies then. Because I am yet to hear it from any hanafi scholar be it deobandi or barelvi

well not exactly my household apart from a certain moment in time when I was made to wear an amulet which I chewed off and eventually got rid of it but from ahnaf . This kinda mysticism is pretty prevalent among the brealvis , the largest Hanafi group in the sub continent, and they do make a fortune out of it .

I am yet to hear it from any hanafi scholar be it deobandi or barelvi

Brother, there are degrees of initiation and you may not be allowed to access the "hidden knowledge " without reaching a certain level of "enlightened" spirituality. You can disagree all you want but you tube is littered with such claims .

 

[Verve]

Online TV with scholars of all sects?? Who is he exactly??

When he asked maulana tariq masood to come to jehlum he didn't said that he wanted to do it online on TV. This is just an excuse by that fraud to run away from sitting in front of a scholar

Now he wants to sit on live TV. Then he would say that it should be done in Pakistani parliament. Then he would say it should be done in United Nations

We don't have time for this bullshit

Maulana tariq masood went all the way to jhelum to talk to that clown but he hide in his hole for hole for 48 hours and was not even able to upload a small clip of 30 seconds in those 48 hours

First teach your engineer Arabic. He can't even recite Quran properly and wants to debate scholars of all sects


And our scholars are ready for debate with this charlatan anywhere anytime. Just get your guru ready to not hide for 48 hours next time

I take it you are Deobandi hence blindly vouching for that Tariq Masood fraud. I repeat, condition of the meet was communicated directly and through video as well including the agenda for debate. Your fraudster decided to show up with his gang instead of 1-1, thus breaching the invitation conditions and agreement.

I guess honouring your agreements means nothing for you Hanafis

This Riwayah occurs in one of the most authentic books of history amongst Ahl-us-Sunnah Wa Al-Jama'ah: Al Bidaya Wa An Nihayah.

Tell me - do you reject Sahih Hadith over Riwayah in history books? You can claim whichever book to be most authentic history book, if it's contents clash with Sahih Hadith, a genuine and true Sunni would always accept the Sahih Hadith and reject the contents of such history books. Video you posted at the very starts he quotes a few Sahih Hadith (even one from Umar RA), however you just bypassed those without any comment. As I said before, majority of the so called Sunni lot become munkar-e-hadith when their beliefs are demolished by Sahih Hadith.

For me, I consider Hadith books to be Tafseer and History both. I do not see a need to learn the Deen from any other source - only Quran and Sunnah (preserved in Hadith). You can believe in Ghous, Abdal, whatever else calling it some sort of spirituality and in books written by crazies (so called Sufis and Alims etc) claiming that Prophets' wives are presented to them in their graves where they do 'shabashi' with them.

 

[Verve]

Not relevant to the discussion.

It is relevant. I suspect you think that marrying a Christian or Jewish woman is acceptable despite them being Kafir. If you believe that, then it opens a can of questions on your judgement as to who is worse.

 

[CriticalThought]

I take it you are Deobandi hence blindly vouching for that Tariq Masood fraud. I repeat, condition of the meet was communicated directly and through video as well including the agenda for debate. Your fraudster decided to show up with his gang instead of 1-1, thus breaching the invitation conditions and agreement.

I guess honouring your agreements means nothing for you Hanafis



Tell me - do you reject Sahih Hadith over Riwayah in history books? You can claim whichever book to be most authentic history book, if it's contents clash with Sahih Hadith, a genuine and true Sunni would always accept the Sahih Hadith and reject the contents of such history books. Video you posted at the very starts he quotes a few Sahih Hadith (even one from Umar RA), however you just bypassed those without any comment. As I said before, majority of the so called Sunni lot become munkar-e-hadith when their beliefs are demolished by Sahih Hadith.

For me, I consider Hadith books to be Tafseer and History both. I do not see a need to learn the Deen from any other source - only Quran and Sunnah (preserved in Hadith). You can believe in Ghous, Abdal, whatever else calling it some sort of spirituality and in books written by crazies (so called Sufis and Alims etc) claiming that Prophets' wives are presented to them in their graves where they do 'shabashi' with them.

Hold your horses, this is working hours for me. Don't be impatient, I will reply to everything Mr Engineer Muhammad Ali Mirza has said over a number of days, Insha Allah.

 

[SaadH]

Generic?

I don't expect Abbu Hanifa to be aware of something called gravity, I also don't expect Abbu Hanifa to be aware at that time that mountains have roots, I think Abbu Hanifa wasn't aware of many species which were discovered centuries after his times, he couldn't have weather forecasted and tell people how rain system works, and obviously he wasn't aware of something called Chlorophyll in plants.

If you think he and people of his time had all this knowledge ..... ok they and their methods are relevant today ........ if not then their work should simply be used as a reference to history.

This fact is in Quran, I would expect him to have known this...

 

[I.R.A]

Sir g yeh name kis sy ny dia ?

Agar ap ki tabiat ko giran na guzaray to apnay shakook ka izhar karon ................ aisi sari harkat faras say hui hain, aur khat ul wasa imkan hy k mehdi ki tarah Khizer b unho nay he mutarif kia hy.

"There are many figures in Iran whose place Khidr took by the Islamization process. One of them is paradoxically a female figure, Anahita. The most popular shrine in Yazd is dedicated to Anahita. Among the Zoroastrians, for the pilgrims to Yazd, the most important of the six pir is Pir-e Sabz ("the green shrine"). The name of the shrine derives from the greenness of the foliage growing around the sanctuary.[60] It is still a functional temple and the holiest site for present-day Zoroastrians living in Iran.[61]

Each year from 14–18 June, many thousands of Zoroastrians from Iran, India and other countries make a pilgrimage to Yazd in Iran to worship at a hillside grotto containing the sacred spring dedicated to Pir-e Sabz. Here the worshippers pray for the fertilising rain and celebrate the greening of nature and the renewal of life.[citation needed]

As Babayan says, "Khizr is related to the Zoroastrian water goddess Anahita, and some of her former sanctuaries in Iran were rededicated to him (Pir-i Sabz)".

Aisi sari kiramat hamary farsi bahio nay apnay pichlay mazhab ki yad taza rakhnay k liay ki hain. Yeh jo ap janab sog aur zanjeer zani kartay hain yeh kiramat b hamary piyary farsi bahio ki aik masoom shehzaday ki yad ko taza rakhnay k liay mutarif ki gai thi.

 

[I.R.A]

This fact is in Quran, I would expect him to have known this...

"It fell to George Biddell Airy, the Astronomer Royal, to review Pratt's paper for the Royal Society. And it was he who came up with the geologically more correct explanation of these puzzling gravity anomalies. Mountains, Airy said, exert less gravitational pull than they should do because they have roots."

And this was in 1850s.

 

[Areesh]

I take it you are Deobandi hence blindly vouching for that Tariq Masood fraud. I repeat, condition of the meet was communicated directly and through video as well including the agenda for debate. Your fraudster decided to show up with his gang instead of 1-1, thus breaching the invitation conditions and agreement.

I guess honouring your agreements means nothing for you Hanafis

Maulana Tariq Masood was ready for 1 on 1 or 2 on 1 or any kind of debate as long as your fraud wouldn't have gone hiding for 48 hours straight when Maulana reached Jhelum

Obviously Maulana was ready for a one on one debate and the rest 2 to 3 people were with him to aid him in the debate. Unlike your fraudster who answers planted questions in his youtube videos from a few limited sources we debate from a wide range of sources hence we need someone to help us find references. Clearly this is something new for you since your charlatan only answers to planted questions he doesn't need someone to find references from many different sources. Those other 2-3 individuals would say a word in the whole debate but your fraudster went on silent mode just like pajeets who went silent for 48 hours once it was confirmed Abhinandan was in Pakistani custody

Apparently your fraudster shares a lot with pajeets from the other side of the border. Go in hiding for 48 hours and when things get a bit clear come up with new excuses to save face

well not exactly my household apart from a certain moment in time when I was made to wear an amulet which I chewed off and eventually got rid of it but from ahnaf . This kinda mysticism is pretty prevalent among the brealvis , the largest Hanafi group in the sub continent, and they do make a fortune out of it .



Brother, there are degrees of initiation and you may not be allowed to access the "hidden knowledge " without reaching a certain level of "enlightened" spirituality. You can disagree all you want but you tube is littered with such claims .

Share at least 2 videos from top Barelvi scholars explaining importance of Khider for Ahnaf and that every hanafi should know him. Hopefully that shouldn't be a big problem from you engineer followers

Just two videos from top scholars is all we want

 

[Areesh]

Deibandi ahnaf may have their own mythical spiritual beings but the majority of indo pak ahnaf like brealvis do consider khizar's metaphysical role in shaping their spirituality. I've been listening fairy tales about this fellow since childhood.

Two videos from two top barelvi scholars is all we need. Thank You

 

[forcetrip]

Generic?

I don't expect Abbu Hanifa to be aware of something called gravity, I also don't expect Abbu Hanifa to be aware at that time that mountains have roots, I think Abbu Hanifa wasn't aware of many species which were discovered centuries after his times, he couldn't have weather forecasted and tell people how rain system works, and obviously he wasn't aware of something called Chlorophyll in plants.

If you think he and people of his time had all this knowledge ..... ok they and their methods are relevant today ........ if not then their work should simply be used as a reference to history.

‘Allamah Suyuti (rahimahullah) writes: ‘Sins leave a darkness on one’s outer and inner self, which is visible to the people blessed with kashf (divine insight).’

(Qutul Mughtadhi, – with Sunan Tirmidhi, See Fathul Mulhim, vol.2 pg.664)

 

[Areesh]

Thank you very much. This is exactly what I was looking for, so May Allah Grant you Many Rewards. I can see why this is causing confusion amongst people. Now, the video itself refers to an entire host of topics, and it further refers to another video, which then refers to another video. It will take me multiple posts to cover even a subset of the topics that have been touched.

So let us start with Kashf, and the incident of Hazrat Umar May Allah Be Pleased with him. He basically refers to this video:

and tries to disprove the Riwayah (narration) as being Dhaif or Mursal, and even refers to another so called scholar to support his claim:

View attachment 804151

Now, I ask my readers, how much do you understand the Science of Hadith? How much do you understand Asma ur Rijal? Are you even in the position to determine if this claim of Tadlees makes the Riwayah Da'if?

The fact of the matter is that Mr. Engineer Muhammad Ali Mirza has only quoted from two books. This Riwayah occurs in one of the most authentic books of history amongst Ahl-us-Sunnah Wa Al-Jama'ah: Al Bidaya Wa An Nihayah. Please read for yourself:

View attachment 804152

View attachment 804153

View attachment 804155

So the esteemed Islamic scholar Ibn-Kathir Rahimahullah, who has also written the renown Tafseer Ibn-e-Kathir, is saying one of the chain of narrations is Hasan and Jayyid, and some of these Turq are supporting each other, yet Mr. Engineer Muhammad Ali Mirza wants to deny it based on an article written by somebody else? What is the standing of Engineer Muhammad Ali Mirza on the matter of Sihat-ul-Hadith, or determining the veracity of Hadith or Riwayat? And why do you blindly follow him and his judgement?

Insha Allah, in my next post, I will show you even further problems with what he has said.

Do check this video on this topic where this fraud engineer was answered by a Barelvi scholar:

 

[I.R.A]

‘Allamah Suyuti (rahimahullah) writes: ‘Sins leave a darkness on one’s outer and inner self, which is visible to the people blessed with kashf (divine insight).’

(Qutul Mughtadhi, – with Sunan Tirmidhi, See Fathul Mulhim, vol.2 pg.664)

Is Kashf equivalent to claiming Ilham? Divine insight is equivalent to Divine revelations?

The problem with Kashf / Ilham is that it opens the doors for anyone to claim prophethood. It has happened already in Subcontinent.

If Muhammad Peace be upon him and all the prophets and messengers before him didn't have the authority to label believing people then how come a follower has this ability to see others' sins? Only the Al Mighty can judge, decide and hold accountable people for their deeds.

 

[Tariq Habib Afridi]

Could you please give a concrete example where you found Engineer Muhammad Ali Mirza to be authentic, and answers given by Ulema to be propaganda? This is exactly what I am looking for. Many thanks in advance.


Do you have some concrete example where you felt his slogan 'Kitabon ka khuda koyee aur hai, babon ka khuda koyee aur hai" made sense? I mean, I can go look at his channel, but what I want to understand are the misconceptions created in people's minds. I can see that slogan is misleading, so I would like to know why it is resonating with you?


That means you have the wrong people coming up on your YouTube. Surely, you could at least listen to Maulana Tariq Jameel? Try Mufti Taqi 'Usmani as well. They never say anything controversial.

My Dear brother. install islam360 app and then pick any topic of your choice in youtube and just listen to ulemas from every sect and engineer bhai also.. you will find all other are either talking from their buzargo ki kitabo say while engineer will talk from Quran and sahih hadees that is saha satta.. Next pick any ulema like kokab noorani, or deobandi maulana tariq masood. their reply to engineer and engineer reply to them..listen to both and you will see Ali bhai is taking logically and from reference while others either mis-interpret hadees or will talk from their own without any reference from Quran wa hadees.. e.g listen to ashraf jalali sahb, or Dr suleman misbaahi saahb and engineer. for reference there are to channels on youtube. one is understand islam and other is comparative islam.. see videos on those channels and you will find yourself.

 

[Mentee]

Agar ap ki tabiat ko giran na guzaray to apnay shakook ka izhar karon ................ aisi sari harkat faras say hui hain, aur khat ul wasa imkan hy k mehdi ki tarah Khizer b unho nay he mutarif kia hy.

"There are many figures in Iran whose place Khidr took by the Islamization process. One of them is paradoxically a female figure, Anahita. The most popular shrine in Yazd is dedicated to Anahita. Among the Zoroastrians, for the pilgrims to Yazd, the most important of the six pir is Pir-e Sabz ("the green shrine"). The name of the shrine derives from the greenness of the foliage growing around the sanctuary.[60] It is still a functional temple and the holiest site for present-day Zoroastrians living in Iran.[61]

Each year from 14–18 June, many thousands of Zoroastrians from Iran, India and other countries make a pilgrimage to Yazd in Iran to worship at a hillside grotto containing the sacred spring dedicated to Pir-e Sabz. Here the worshippers pray for the fertilising rain and celebrate the greening of nature and the renewal of life.[citation needed]

As Babayan says, "Khizr is related to the Zoroastrian water goddess Anahita, and some of her former sanctuaries in Iran were rededicated to him (Pir-i Sabz)".

Aisi sari kiramat hamary farsi bahio nay apnay pichlay mazhab ki yad taza rakhnay k liay ki hain. Yeh jo ap janab sog aur zanjeer zani kartay hain yeh kiramat b hamary piyary farsi bahio ki aik masoom shehzaday ki yad ko taza rakhnay k liay mutarif ki gai thi.

Does that mean this specific myth was coined east of Euphrates then exported to Greek o Roman pagan society as Poseidon later to be known as saint George, which iam not sure about ,after the advent of Christianity and then embraced by the sufi/Gnostic orders of Islam as khizar?