Should discussion be allowed on questions raised by Engineer Muhammad Ali Mirza?

[CriticalThought]

I am listening to him from the past 6 or 7 years. And still i listen scholars from all other sect as well. I also verify quran and hadees references and has found Engineer muhammad Ali bhai is always trustworthy and the references are there as it is as stated by Ali bhai.. and about the answers from other ulemas they are mostly either propaganda or not from quran wa hadees.. so please listen to everyone and also verify everything and please dont rely on short clips which was made only for maligning cutting the complete word and context.

Could you please give a concrete example where you found Engineer Muhammad Ali Mirza to be authentic, and answers given by Ulema to be propaganda? This is exactly what I am looking for. Many thanks in advance.

I really like that guy, didnt knew about him few months back but now i listen his youtube videos often. His trademark phrase : kitabon ka khudha kyoee aur hai, babayoon ka khudha kyoee aur hai :d

Do you have some concrete example where you felt his slogan 'Kitabon ka khuda koyee aur hai, babon ka khuda koyee aur hai" made sense? I mean, I can go look at his channel, but what I want to understand are the misconceptions created in people's minds. I can see that slogan is misleading, so I would like to know why it is resonating with you?

90% of time when these Pakistani mullahs, from all sects, pop up in my youtube recommendations, its all about having a dig at each other, discussing political and difference of opinions related issues between personalities who passed way more then thousand years ago, and ofcourse, they have to shout at top of their lung to make their points. All this is sold in the name of Islam.

That means you have the wrong people coming up on your YouTube. Surely, you could at least listen to Maulana Tariq Jameel? Try Mufti Taqi 'Usmani as well. They never say anything controversial.

 

[CriticalThought]

Sir I have lived with deobandis. They are not the saints that you think they are. Imam barelvi didn't give the fatwas himself that he could retract. He got them from different ulemas all over the world. The fake Hadith, love of yazid etc etc have been the product of these mullahs

And after that the Deobandi Ulema wrote Al-Muhannad 'Alal Mufannad' to refute the basis on which those Fatwas were given and the Arabic Ulema had to agree with the Deobandi stance. And the Barelvis themselves have softened their stance now because the original was based on incorrect information.

There are good and bad everywhere. I am sorry to hear you have negative experiences with Deobandis. But if you have any concrete questions in your mind about the Deobandis which are unanswered, please bring them forward.

I respect Imam Abu Hanifa for being a prominent Islamic jurist but the fan following base especially of indo - pak region doesn't sit quite well with me . Condescending straight out bullies who resort to extreme violence and shouting the moment you cite Quran o Sunnah on any issue they aren't aware of or deliberately kept in the dark for politcal appropriation -------. Hence why scholars like Engineer Mirza are targeted for refuting myths of self grandeur .

In the case of Engineer Muhammad Ali Mirza, well he is spreading misinformation. I am trying to find something valid where he has shown Deobandis/Hanafis are wrong. Can you point this out to me?

 

[Mentee]

Pai ...... respected Abu Hanifa may have been valid centuries ago, how can his work be valid in today's times except as a historical reference?

I've been cautious as to not hurt my Sunni brethren feelings who turn some of the religious figures into demi-gods but refuse to admit it .

Well it is good that they disassociate from some certain deviant beliefs that shias

Any credible shia scholar would run for the hills after coming into contact with not only braelvi piracy but incorporating the nusayri/ghaali/Pagan mysticism which is deeply imbeded among the Hanafis they accuses the whole Shia madhab of but yeah they still Muvahid and shia kafir coz of sectarian affiliation .

 

[CriticalThought]

The whole economic system, the scientific research, the exploration and new discoveries, better means of exploring and understanding the universe, better understanding of species of different kinds, better medical treatments, technological advances so on and so forth. They did what they did according to their times.

Let me give you a simple example ..... Quran says

" He has created the heavens without any pillars, that you see and has set on the earth firm mountains, lest it should shake with you. And He has scattered therein moving (living) creatures of all kinds. And We send down water (rain) from the sky, and We cause (plants) of every goodly kind to grow therein."

Now anyone with slightest better scientific knowledge would understand this verse better.

I think you are misunderstanding the position of Imam Abu Hanifa Rahimahullah. He hasn't just provided us opinions, he has given us a system of jurisprudence. How to derive results from the corpus of Holy Quran, Hadith, and life of Sahaba May Allah Be Pleased with them. This system of thought remains relevant and can be applied in modern times as well.

He is a jahil at Islamic history. He pulls out only spicy parts, puts some more Shia spice on it and serves it on public. Public is liking this new taste, because it's new, but actually he is just another joker like Tahir Ul Qadri or Ghamidi. Better stay away from him, as I am anticipating that this guy will end up being an atheist.

Please avoid using words like 'Jahil'. You will get this thread closed.

 

[Mentee]

There are good and bad everywhere

Yes plz reserve this privilege for the shias as well.

I think you are misunderstanding the position of Imam Abu Hanifa Rahimahullah. He hasn't just provided us opinions, he has given us a system of jurisprudence. How to derive results from the corpus of Holy Quran, Hadith, and life of Sahaba May Allah Be Pleased with them. This system of thought remains relevant and can be applied in modern times as well.

Can i still be a muslim after disagreeing with Hanafi jurisprudence or following someone else in Sharia legalism ?

 

[CriticalThought]

Yes plz reserve this privilege for the shias as well.

Of course, the mainstream Mazhab of Deobandis regarding Shias is that if they don't hold certain extremely toxic and heretic views regarding the Holy Quran, Ammi Ayesha Razi Allahu Ta'ala 'Anha etc, then they are misguided but not Kafir.

 

[I.R.A]

I think you are misunderstanding the position of Imam Abu Hanifa Rahimahullah. He hasn't just provided us opinions, he has given us a system of jurisprudence. How to derive results from the corpus of Holy Quran, Hadith, and life of Sahaba May Allah Be Pleased with them. This system of thought remains relevant and can be applied in modern times as well.

That is what I am saying, we can refer to his work, but not maintain his work as absolute final word on everything. Modern problems require modern solutions in line with framework contained in Holy Quran, understanding Quran with passage of time will get better and better. We cannot remain stagnant.

 

[Mentee]

Of course, the mainstream Mazhab of Deobandis regarding Shias is that if they don't hold certain extremely toxic and heretic views regarding the Holy Quran, Ammi Ayesha Razi Allahu Ta'ala 'Anha etc, then they are misguided but not Kafir.

You guys better come to terms with reality yourself. Like i said earlier shias got nothing to do with the nusyari/ghaali mysticism embraced by the hanafis like hidden knowledge , Ism Azam, or that 90000 Qalaam etc.


Ayma Ahly Bayt A.s have categorically refuted such accusations. And no, narrating history in the light of Quran and Sunnah only for the sake of course correction of Ummah and not to convert them to my forefathers sect isnt misguided or toxic. king's party can believe whatever they want to

 

[Areesh]

Generic?

I don't expect Abbu Hanifa to be aware of something called gravity, I also don't expect Abbu Hanifa to be aware at that time that mountains have roots, I think Abbu Hanifa wasn't aware of many species which were discovered centuries after his times, he couldn't have weather forecasted and tell people how rain system works, and obviously he wasn't aware of something called Chlorophyll in plants.

If you think he and people of his time had all this knowledge ..... ok they and their methods are relevant today ........ if not then their work should simply be used as a reference to history.

My question is still the same


What specific work of Imam Abu Hanifa that you find not relevant today and should be updated?

I want to know that specific piece of work

Any credible shia scholar would run for the hills after coming into contact with not only braelvi piracy but incorporating the nusayri/ghaali/Pagan mysticism which is deeply imbeded among the Hanafis they accuses the whole Shia madhab of but yeah they still Muvahid and shia kafir coz of sectarian affiliation .

Whole Shiasm is founded on ghulu and pagan mysticism. There are tons of videos and books out their with such material written and produced by hundreds and hundreds of shia scholars

Having said that. If some hanafi is making a demi god out of some personality then indeed he is misguided and not on the path of ahle sunnah

 

[I.R.A]

My question is still the same


What specific work of Imam Abu Hanifa that you find not relevant today and should be updated?

I want to know that specific piece of work

Okay well let's play your way.

Was Abbu Hanifa traditionalist or someone who questioned the set practices and traditions?

You are trying to argue about someone who himself questioned and rejected set practices of his times and favored technical considerations at that time.

I am sure no matter how much you try you cannot claim that Abbu Hanifa had knowledge of modern day (today's) concepts, problems and technicalities.

His work being a jurist in his times was revered and noted because he reformed and formulated according to his times.

Buddy no matter what, Abbu Hanifa is not coming to write a constitution for you. Evolve and move forward.

 

[CriticalThought]

That is what I am saying, we can refer to his work, but not maintain his work as absolute final word on everything. Modern problems require modern solutions in line with framework contained in Holy Quran, understanding Quran with passage of time will get better and better. We cannot remain stagnant.

You are right. But also, the way we pray five times a day will not change with time.

I'll give you a famous example of how Deobandi school of thought keeps progressing. Suppose a woman's husband goes on a journey and does not return. The original position of Ahnaf is that the wife must wait till such time that the husband WOULD HAVE turned 90 years and according to some 120 years. Given the situation in modern times, Deobandi scholars have performed Rujoo' from this position and instead adopted the Maliki position (as far as my knowledge goes).

 

[CriticalThought]

You guys better come to terms with reality yourself. Like i said earlier shias got nothing to do with the nusyari/ghaali mysticism embraced by the hanafis like hidden knowledge , Ism Azam, or that 90000 Qalaam etc.


Ayma Ahly Bayt A.s have categorically refuted such accusations. And no, narrating history in the light of Quran and Sunnah only for the sake of course correction of Ummah and not to convert them to my forefathers sect isnt misguided or toxic. king's party can believe whatever they want to

There used to be a 'Khana Farhang Iran' in Karachi. A friend of mine studied in a famous Shia school where rote learning the names of 12 Imams was compulsory. One of his Sunni friends started getting attracted to the Shia teachings. Fearing he will get completely lost, my friend went to the library in Khana Farhang. They saw his student ID of the Shia school and allowed him entrance without question. He looked up information from the books present there.

Before you make a claim, you should realize we know you from the inside out. Having said that, no we don't consider ourselves to be "King's party' or whatever. We just express the truth and remain humble servants of Allah the Almighty.

 

[I.R.A]

You are right. But also, the way we pray five times a day will not change with time.

Rituals are best learnt by observing, I don't understand the need to write them down.

I'll give you a famous example of how Deobandi school of thought keeps progressing. Suppose a woman's husband goes on a journey and does not return. The original position of Ahnaf is that the wife must wait till such time that the husband WOULD HAVE turned 90 years and according to some 120 years. Given the situation in modern times, Deobandi scholars have performed Rujoo' from this position and instead adopted the Maliki position (as far as my knowledge goes).

Out of 220 million people (I will restrict it to Pakistan only), this particular example is applicable for how many?

In my opinion in Islam it is the state that has the authority to promulgate and implement laws (obviously staying and remaining compliant with the framework laid down in divine revelations), no individual holds any authority to decided halal haram or declare Muslim infidel. Clergy has no place in Islam, Muslims were successful as long as they were following and respecting their State, the clergy paved the path for Kings and Dictators.

 

[CriticalThought]

Rituals are best learnt by observing, I don't understand the need to write them down.





Out of 220 million people (I will restrict it to Pakistan only), this particular example is applicable for how many?

In my opinion in Islam it is the state that has the authority to promulgate and implement laws (obviously staying and remaining compliant with the framework laid down in divine revelations), no individual holds any authority to decided halal haram or declare Muslim infidel. Clergy has no place in Islam, Muslims were successful as long as they were following and respecting their State, the clergy paved the path for Kings and Dictators.

You seem to be majorly confused about Islamic History in that case. Hazrat Imam Abu Hanifa Rahimahullah was born in 80 AH. During his life time, he was asked by the Khalifa to become a Qadhi. He recognized the motive as a power play and refused. For this, he was jailed and passed away in jail in 150 AH. But then his disciples Iman Yousuf and Imam Muhammad did spend time in government. So your statement that 'Muslims were follwing the State' is absolutely false. The State was actively seeking relevance by associating itself with scholars.

Only during the earliest rule of the Caliphs, the Caliph himself was an authority in Islam being one of the closest Companions May Allah Be Pleased with them. Otherwise no Muslim would follow a worldly ruler in the matters of religion.

Rituals are best learnt by observing, I don't understand the need to write them down.

Namaz is not merely a ritual, it is a fundamental tenet of Islam. Quite contrary to your own views, the most authentic writings in Islam are on the topic of Salah, Zakat, Saum, and Hajj. The actions of majority Muslims seem to be contrary to your desires.

 

[I.R.A]

So your statement that 'Muslims were follwing the State' is absolutely false.

I don't accept Abbasids and others' rule as State in conformity with Islamic way of governance, they were usurpers and led many astray into believing nonsense that had nothing to do with Islam.

I was referring to righteous Caliphs and they don't count to be 4 only.