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Featured Shallow Water Submarines - The case for Pakistan

The best place for solid state batteries is outside the pressure hull of the submarine, in sealed containers, like what has been practiced on deep submergence vehicles for decades.

While prices may seem to be falling for everything, marinating and military marine is never cheap, lets alone submarine, as it has to account for many factors not applicable to land civil.

Another opportunity is to use faceted shaping. Something yet to be seen in submarines, but provides the same stealth advantages as in aircraft. The USN considered this, but then dropped the idea, as speed of the submarine decreases marginally by a few knots, which was a tradeoff they were not willing to make, given that USN subs need to keep pace with an aircraft carrier group.

Faceted submarines also provide an opportunity to lower costs and simplify submarine construction. Straight lines are a lot easier to build than curved ones, something that wasn't an issue for USN but may have some relevance to Pakistan.

A solution like this, on a SWAT could see an Octagon or Decagon with a flat bottom surface, for ease of sitting on the surface of the shallow waters.
 
Another opportunity is to use faceted shaping. Something yet to be seen in submarines, but provides the same stealth advantages as in aircraft. The USN considered this, but then dropped the idea, as speed of the submarine decreases marginally by a few knots, which was a tradeoff they were not willing to make, given that USN subs need to keep pace with an aircraft carrier group.

Faceted submarines also provide an opportunity to lower costs and simplify submarine construction. Straight lines are a lot easier to build than curved ones, something that wasn't an issue for USN but may have some relevance to Pakistan.

A solution like this, on a SWAT could see an Octagon or Decagon with a flat bottom surface, for ease of sitting on the surface of the shallow waters.

You make up stuff as you go along?

Faceted shapes would never be practical underwater. its not about speed, but endurance, and underwater noise. What works in air doesn't work underwater. Please refrain from conjecture, from your imaginary low cost submarines, to fictional UUVs, to faceted submarines. Also, please dont quit your day job and get into submarine construction.
 
You make up stuff as you go along?

Faceted shapes would never be practical underwater. its not about speed, but endurance, and underwater noise. What works in air doesn't work underwater. Please refrain from conjecture, from your imaginary low cost submarines, to fictional UUVs, to faceted submarines. Also, please dont quit your day job and get into submarine construction.

No I am not making up stuff. There have been publications about it - please do your own research on it. Famously, Chuck Yeager discussed this along with stealth aircraft. A modicum of respect before accusations are thrown may have been the better option.

His team got right to work and bought a small model submarine, put faceted fairings on it and tested it in a sonic chamber. Even with such a crude setup, they discovered that they had reduced the model’s sonar return by three orders of magnitude. Rich has said that “in the engineering game, improving anything by a single order of magnitude – 10 times better – is a very big deal and usually worth a nice bottle of champagne.” Having discovered an improvement one thousand times better, the Skunk Works decided to pursue designing a stealthy sub.
https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/news/features/history/sea-shadow.html

This is all old news, has been around for over 2 decades. 2 minutes of googling would have helped.

Always fascinated how I need to refer to goras to get acceptance and ordinary respect with South Asian brothers. New ideas need to get vetted from gora-land before they are accepted, and people bringing them up can "deserve" basic conversational respect.
 
No I am not making up stuff. There have been publications about it - please do your own research on it. Famously, Chuck Yeager discussed this along with stealth aircraft. A modicum of respect before accusations are thrown may have been the better option.

His team got right to work and bought a small model submarine, put faceted fairings on it and tested it in a sonic chamber. Even with such a crude setup, they discovered that they had reduced the model’s sonar return by three orders of magnitude. Rich has said that “in the engineering game, improving anything by a single order of magnitude – 10 times better – is a very big deal and usually worth a nice bottle of champagne.” Having discovered an improvement one thousand times better, the Skunk Works decided to pursue designing a stealthy sub.
https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/news/features/history/sea-shadow.html

This is all old news, has been around for over 2 decades. 2 minutes of googling would have helped.

Always fascinated how I need to refer to goras to get acceptance and ordinary respect with South Asian brothers. New ideas need to get vetted from gora-land before they are accepted, and people bringing them up can "deserve" basic conversational respect.

The echo reduction is undertaken by sound absorbent materials, and using the SVP in your favour. Rest you can keep talking emotional stuff and your ideas which are not practically implemented by any serious submarine builder around the world due to practical implications and not theoretical studies.
 
"NEYK" is a sophisticated and deadly mini submarine build by OCEAN SUBMARINE, Netherlands.
Primarily designed for SOF with its ability to be launch from Landing Platform Docks and the only submarine with the ability to walk on land using landing gears. NEYK is in the process of development to be launched in january 2018. Availables in two version for Navy's and Coastguards.

https://*****************/attachments/marine-design-touch-png.3845/


https://*****************/attachments/oceansubmarine_2_a4-jpg.3852/

Introduction:
The newest type NEYK submarine with a fully pressurized single hull has excellent military capabilities. With an overall length from 19m (63ft) to 22m (73 feet) and has excellent stealth features and a very low noise profile. It has the capability to bring a complete team of Navy Seals and all its equipment undetected to almost on shore of any place on earth. Its standard diving capability of 300m (1000 feet) can be upgraded. But the Marine version of our NEYK also can deploy a lot of other military tasks. From gathering intel to active warfare.

Either for gathering information or tactical purposes the NEYK submarines will be a weapon system of its own kind. It can deploy a rapid force on any coast for infiltration or retracting purposes. It can be fitted with an extra layer of stealthy provisions. It primary and secondary weapon system are very versatile. But most of all its compact size, very low noise profile and incredible agile manoeuvrability will help every submarine commander to get his task accomplished.

The NEYK can be equipped with various weapon systems. Most likely the Navy version of our NEYK will be fitted with two launching tubes for either all types of torpedo’s or mines and missiles. Besides that, it can also be rigged with various kind of defending weaponry.

The “NEYK” combat system provides the best platform for processing all gathered intel. The NEYK can function as an unseen sentinel collecting all kind of e-lint by any system you wish or eyeballed reconnaissance by its strong tactical periscope. And it can do that for a long time without surfacing.

The customer can have a choice of any combat system he likes with every type of sensor passive active ranging or intercept. This can go from a cylindrical array sonar, passive sonar, echo sounder, Intercept sonar, active sonar, self-noise indicators and all types of navigation and communication systems, standard underwater telephone, various radar systems and tactical night vision equipment for the periscope.


https://*****************/attachments/0026_witte_achtergrond1-jpg.3846/

Design
The NEYK by Ocean Submarine is modularly built and comes with a single pressure hull. The hull is reinforced with rafters spaced at 60 centimetres apart for maximum security. The overall design guarantees a very low hydrodynamic drag, a high shock resistance and a very low noise signature. The bow section varies to order. The submarine has spaciously dimensioned panoramic acrylate portholes for excellent sight from the cockpit. With its hydraulically driven retractable undercarriage The NEYK is the only submarine that can land by driving up a ramp by itself.

The new NEYK submarine is completely built modular. The private versions have a single pressure hull that is only slightly tapered in the rear for maximum inner space. That is where the oxygen bottles are stored. All parts as mid ship, conning tower, stern and bow sections are made of high-yield steel HY-100 (produced by Marel to meet RNIN specifications).

The bow section is not welded but bolted to the hull and can vary to order. For military use is it is likely fitted with a steel version that can contain weapons or electronics.

The NEYK can easily be airlifted to any place in the world. To transport the vessel, the vertical diving rudders and the complete tower can be removed within one hour only. The three retractable wheels with hydraulic propulsion gives the submarine the possibility to drive up any elevations up to 7 degrees such as ramp. The complete submarine can drive itself into a transport airplane like a C5-Galaxy or Antonov An-225.
https://*****************/attachments/ft-2017-007-a013-416x200-jpg.3848/



https://*****************/attachments/ft-2017-007-a008-xar_-1-jpg.3847/

Comfort
Every submarine commander will love our Navy version of the NEYK series for its highest achievable comfort for his crew and its excellent handling. The revolutionary steering design makes the vessel the most agile submarine ever made. All integrated electronical control and monitoring systems makes the submarine completely operated by wire and easy to handle with only two joysticks. That makes manoeuvring very precise and predictable. The NEYK either can turn on its keel within seconds or hoover within centimetres at one spot.

The NEYK submarine can be rigged as a fast stealthy and deadly naval force to be reckoned with.

It really is the most agile underwater vessel ever build. Due to the two separately placed main engines that separately can be reversed, four vertical diving rudders and a main rudder, a bow and a stern thruster the whole submarine can turn on a dime in only seconds. And this without causing cavitation. Hoovering is also brought to the next level. The NEYK can stay actively in one place by the use of two extra vertical thruster placed in the dome on top of te tower that can give up and downforce. It can do this completely computerised at pre-set parameters.

For any Navy men on a high risk mission, the absolutely stealth concept will be a real reassurance. Also its very rugged design will be very comforting. The NEYK is a boat that can endure a beating. And think about installing provisions like high pressure chamber with inside an air lock and to the outside an extra hatch to let divers in and out under water. That hatch also can be of great value in rescuing other submarine crews if necessary.

https://*****************/attachments/ft-2017-014-c064-xar-navy-submarine-425x200-jpg.3849/

Viewport
The large spherical top viewport provides the pilot with excellent all-round visibility

Power and propulsion
The main propulsion of the NEYK is provided by two electrical nearly noiseless motors that are placed in two pods outside the pressure hull. The pods are specially designed to give the propellers more efficiency up to five percent and provide extra cooling at low speed. The revolutionary design also provides low drag and a very low underwater noise signature.

The electrical power is generated by a diesel engine. The engine provides the power for the electrical main propulsion and bow, stern and vertical thrusters when surfaced or at snorkelling depth and charges the batteries.

Ocean Submarine provides the diesel driven Rolls-Royce 4000 U83 generator as a standard. Other makes of engine can also be built in. For the electrical propulsion we use 100 kW motors as a standard. However, more powerful engines or more recreational types can be ordered.


https://*****************/attachments/ft-2017-007-a030-xar_-jpg.3850/

Extra features
Standard the NEYK submarine comes fully navigable with all necessary navigation systems, a fully integrated periscope, systems for surface and under water communication and safety equipment. But our NEYK submarine is a very flexible diving platform. Every vessel is unique and can be rigged with almost every piece of equipment to meet even the most demanding customer requirements.

Ocean Submarine also provides the necessary training and certification of the crew.

https://*****************/attachments/fd-2016-001-a003-uitsn-1280x638-jpg.3851/

PRINCIPAL SPECIFICATIONS
• Overall length: 19.340m (63 feet)
• Optional extension: 2.300m (7 feet)
• Overall breadth: 7.000m (23 feet)
• Overall height: 5.545m (18 feet)
• Diameter hull: 3.000m (10 feet)
• Diameter main hatch: 0,60 m*
Displacement:

• Surfaced: 90.920-100 metric tons
• Submerged:
Depending on length 103.320-108 metric tons
• Diving capacity:
Depending on version 100-900 metres (300-1000 feet)
• Power generation:
Other specs possible 218 kW diesel engine
Propulsion:

• Two electrically driven propellors:
Other specs possible 100- 200 kw
Max speed depending on type of engine and 100% output
• Surfaced:
Military versions can differ 5-11 nKT
• Surbmerged:
Military versions can differ 7-15 nKT

STEERING AND MANOEUVERING
In water:
  • Main steering by 4 independent operational vertical rudders fore and aft with 30º elevation (full up to full down)
  • Two addional bow and rear thrusters 10kW. Two vertical thrusters of 5kW. Main engines independent reversible
On land:
  • Complete undercarriage with hydraulic propulsion on each wheel. Climbing angle 7º max.
  • Maximum dive angle: 30º
  • Max. payload depending on version: 5.8 tons
Manufacturers:
http://oceansubmarine.com/navy/
 
This was your claim, which was impolite and rude. I've given evidence, although none was needed for a gentlemanly conversation. Rest is you not being big enough to admit you were wrong.
Are any of these in use either by parent country or any other country? Secondly what is the cost of such a unit. From the sounds of it it is a concept design but not in actual use. Help would be appreciated.
A
 
"NEYK" is a sophisticated and deadly mini submarine build by OCEAN SUBMARINE, Netherlands.
Primarily designed for SOF with its ability to be launch from Landing Platform Docks and the only submarine with the ability to walk on land using landing gears. NEYK is in the process of development to be launched in january 2018. Availables in two version for Navy's and Coastguards.

marine-design-touch-png.3845



oceansubmarine_2_a4-jpg.3852


Introduction:
The newest type NEYK submarine with a fully pressurized single hull has excellent military capabilities. With an overall length from 19m (63ft) to 22m (73 feet) and has excellent stealth features and a very low noise profile. It has the capability to bring a complete team of Navy Seals and all its equipment undetected to almost on shore of any place on earth. Its standard diving capability of 300m (1000 feet) can be upgraded. But the Marine version of our NEYK also can deploy a lot of other military tasks. From gathering intel to active warfare.

Either for gathering information or tactical purposes the NEYK submarines will be a weapon system of its own kind. It can deploy a rapid force on any coast for infiltration or retracting purposes. It can be fitted with an extra layer of stealthy provisions. It primary and secondary weapon system are very versatile. But most of all its compact size, very low noise profile and incredible agile manoeuvrability will help every submarine commander to get his task accomplished.

The NEYK can be equipped with various weapon systems. Most likely the Navy version of our NEYK will be fitted with two launching tubes for either all types of torpedo’s or mines and missiles. Besides that, it can also be rigged with various kind of defending weaponry.

The “NEYK” combat system provides the best platform for processing all gathered intel. The NEYK can function as an unseen sentinel collecting all kind of e-lint by any system you wish or eyeballed reconnaissance by its strong tactical periscope. And it can do that for a long time without surfacing.

The customer can have a choice of any combat system he likes with every type of sensor passive active ranging or intercept. This can go from a cylindrical array sonar, passive sonar, echo sounder, Intercept sonar, active sonar, self-noise indicators and all types of navigation and communication systems, standard underwater telephone, various radar systems and tactical night vision equipment for the periscope.


0026_witte_achtergrond1-jpg.3846


Design
The NEYK by Ocean Submarine is modularly built and comes with a single pressure hull. The hull is reinforced with rafters spaced at 60 centimetres apart for maximum security. The overall design guarantees a very low hydrodynamic drag, a high shock resistance and a very low noise signature. The bow section varies to order. The submarine has spaciously dimensioned panoramic acrylate portholes for excellent sight from the cockpit. With its hydraulically driven retractable undercarriage The NEYK is the only submarine that can land by driving up a ramp by itself.

The new NEYK submarine is completely built modular. The private versions have a single pressure hull that is only slightly tapered in the rear for maximum inner space. That is where the oxygen bottles are stored. All parts as mid ship, conning tower, stern and bow sections are made of high-yield steel HY-100 (produced by Marel to meet RNIN specifications).

The bow section is not welded but bolted to the hull and can vary to order. For military use is it is likely fitted with a steel version that can contain weapons or electronics.

The NEYK can easily be airlifted to any place in the world. To transport the vessel, the vertical diving rudders and the complete tower can be removed within one hour only. The three retractable wheels with hydraulic propulsion gives the submarine the possibility to drive up any elevations up to 7 degrees such as ramp. The complete submarine can drive itself into a transport airplane like a C5-Galaxy or Antonov An-225.
ft-2017-007-a013-416x200-jpg.3848




ft-2017-007-a008-xar_-1-jpg.3847


Comfort
Every submarine commander will love our Navy version of the NEYK series for its highest achievable comfort for his crew and its excellent handling. The revolutionary steering design makes the vessel the most agile submarine ever made. All integrated electronical control and monitoring systems makes the submarine completely operated by wire and easy to handle with only two joysticks. That makes manoeuvring very precise and predictable. The NEYK either can turn on its keel within seconds or hoover within centimetres at one spot.

The NEYK submarine can be rigged as a fast stealthy and deadly naval force to be reckoned with.

It really is the most agile underwater vessel ever build. Due to the two separately placed main engines that separately can be reversed, four vertical diving rudders and a main rudder, a bow and a stern thruster the whole submarine can turn on a dime in only seconds. And this without causing cavitation. Hoovering is also brought to the next level. The NEYK can stay actively in one place by the use of two extra vertical thruster placed in the dome on top of te tower that can give up and downforce. It can do this completely computerised at pre-set parameters.

For any Navy men on a high risk mission, the absolutely stealth concept will be a real reassurance. Also its very rugged design will be very comforting. The NEYK is a boat that can endure a beating. And think about installing provisions like high pressure chamber with inside an air lock and to the outside an extra hatch to let divers in and out under water. That hatch also can be of great value in rescuing other submarine crews if necessary.

ft-2017-014-c064-xar-navy-submarine-425x200-jpg.3849


Viewport
The large spherical top viewport provides the pilot with excellent all-round visibility

Power and propulsion
The main propulsion of the NEYK is provided by two electrical nearly noiseless motors that are placed in two pods outside the pressure hull. The pods are specially designed to give the propellers more efficiency up to five percent and provide extra cooling at low speed. The revolutionary design also provides low drag and a very low underwater noise signature.

The electrical power is generated by a diesel engine. The engine provides the power for the electrical main propulsion and bow, stern and vertical thrusters when surfaced or at snorkelling depth and charges the batteries.

Ocean Submarine provides the diesel driven Rolls-Royce 4000 U83 generator as a standard. Other makes of engine can also be built in. For the electrical propulsion we use 100 kW motors as a standard. However, more powerful engines or more recreational types can be ordered.


ft-2017-007-a030-xar_-jpg.3850


Extra features
Standard the NEYK submarine comes fully navigable with all necessary navigation systems, a fully integrated periscope, systems for surface and under water communication and safety equipment. But our NEYK submarine is a very flexible diving platform. Every vessel is unique and can be rigged with almost every piece of equipment to meet even the most demanding customer requirements.

Ocean Submarine also provides the necessary training and certification of the crew.

fd-2016-001-a003-uitsn-1280x638-jpg.3851


PRINCIPAL SPECIFICATIONS
• Overall length: 19.340m (63 feet)
• Optional extension: 2.300m (7 feet)
• Overall breadth: 7.000m (23 feet)
• Overall height: 5.545m (18 feet)
• Diameter hull: 3.000m (10 feet)
• Diameter main hatch: 0,60 m*
Displacement:

• Surfaced: 90.920-100 metric tons
• Submerged:
Depending on length 103.320-108 metric tons
• Diving capacity:
Depending on version 100-900 metres (300-1000 feet)
• Power generation:
Other specs possible 218 kW diesel engine
Propulsion:

• Two electrically driven propellors:
Other specs possible 100- 200 kw
Max speed depending on type of engine and 100% output
• Surfaced:
Military versions can differ 5-11 nKT
• Surbmerged:
Military versions can differ 7-15 nKT

STEERING AND MANOEUVERING
In water:
  • Main steering by 4 independent operational vertical rudders fore and aft with 30º elevation (full up to full down)
  • Two addional bow and rear thrusters 10kW. Two vertical thrusters of 5kW. Main engines independent reversible
On land:
  • Complete undercarriage with hydraulic propulsion on each wheel. Climbing angle 7º max.
  • Maximum dive angle: 30º
  • Max. payload depending on version: 5.8 tons
Manufacturers:
http://oceansubmarine.com/navy/

A concept at best. No serious navy will consider such a toy for operations.
 
This was your claim, which was impolite and rude. I've given evidence, although none was needed for a gentlemanly conversation. Rest is you not being big enough to admit you were wrong.

I am always wrong. I have no information or data to share with anyone. I don't talk to JF17 pilots on FOBs and as someone said, F6 has been retired long time ago. Rest, the readers can decide what they find value in my posts. Its my opinion and I am not here to get fans and followers.

I started this thread on the subject. Kindly stick to the subject. Anything ridiculous or false will be called out. You will find it impolite if your mind is closed and your ego drives you. You should start your own thread on UUVs or funny dutch concepts etc if you have anything credible or original to share with the forum.
 
Last edited:
I am always wrong. I have no information or data to share with anyone. I don't talk to JF17 pilots on FOBs and as someone said, F6 has been retired long time ago. Rest, the readers can decide what they find value in my posts. Its my opinion and I am not here to get fans and followers.

I started this thread on the subject. Kindly stick to the subject. Anything ridiculous or false will be called out. You will find it impolite if your mind is closed and your ego drives you. You should start your own thread on UUVs or funny dutch concepts etc if you have anything credible or original to share with the forum.
On the question of SWATS, there has been chatter on the net of collaboration /help from our Turkish brothers on the project. Without going into a strong opinion which might incite a mini Turkish internet Riot can you please opine whether the possibility is there or do you think this is a totally indegenous affair or there are some other players involved?
 
Last edited:
On the question of SWATS, there has been chatter on the net of collaboration /help from our Turkish brothers on the project. Without going into a strong opinion which might incite a mini Turkish internet Riot can you please opine whether the possibility is there or do you think this is a totally indegenous affair or there are some other players involved?

@PAR 5 could be a better guide. In my assessment, Turks dont have a SWATS design beyond a concept. I am not aware what PN is after, but I think a 400-600 ton platform could work for PN, if one is available and ready for production.
 
@PAR 5 could be a better guide. In my assessment, Turks dont have a SWATS design beyond a concept. I am not aware what PN is after, but I think a 400-600 ton platform could work for PN, if one is available and ready for production.

Turks don’t have experience in Submarine Conceptualisation, design and certification. They only have experience in upkeep. Since no global manufacturer has recently made and deployed a SWAT for any Navy, hence like others Turks are free to propose only. PN requirement for a SWAT is 700-750 tons
 
Turks don’t have experience in Submarine Conceptualisation, design and certification. They only have experience in upkeep. Since no global manufacturer has recently made and deployed a SWAT for any Navy, hence like others Turks are free to propose only. PN requirement for a SWAT is 700-750 tons

@PAR 5 what are potential platforms or concepts available in this tonnage?
 
Turks don’t have experience in Submarine Conceptualisation, design and certification. They only have experience in upkeep. Since no global manufacturer has recently made and deployed a SWAT for any Navy, hence like others Turks are free to propose only. PN requirement for a SWAT is 700-750 tons
This requirement sounds awfully close to the Wyvern concept by BMT in the UK.

The philosophy behind WYVERN places considerable emphasis on taking a simplistic approach to design. WYVERN’s design is based on a generic requirement set, underpinned by open source design standards, equipment suppliers’ data and an assumed end user concept of operations. The use of commercial off-the-shelf (COTS), military off-the-shelf (MOTS) equipment and allowing flexible equipment specification affords greater design tailoring to meet the varied requirements of prospective end users.

 

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