Featured Shallow Water Submarines - The case for Pakistan

[Bilal Khan 777]

Sir, off late there’s a lot of chatter about PN opting for remote operated subsurface platforms - not submarines - as shooters. Do you believe it’s something that’s workable?

I have no idea. UUVs for offensive platforms are at least a decade away for advanced navies, and longer for us.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

In a few years PN will emerge as a regional powerhouse of force projection thanks to the vision, consistency and continuity of projects for the last three service chiefs and the literal all wheel drive of CNS Abbasi. It is so exciting to see PN coming out of its cocoon to spread its modern wings. Stay tuned

I wish 4 Type 052Ds are added in PN

 

[Tipu7]

I wish 4 Type 052Ds are added in PN

Hopefully you wish will be granted, but in a better way.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

I wish 4 Type 052Ds are added in PN

This was a SWATS thread.

 

[Zarvan]

In the 60's, Pakistan Navy ventured in the arena of asymmetric warfare, by ordering Midget submarines and swimmer delivery vehicles from Italy. These are generally known to be limited anti-shipping and mining platforms. Hence was the formation of Pakistan's frogmen branch, setup on the pattern of British SBS, but trained mostly by specialists trained by USN Seal Teams. The subject capability put IN on the defensive, as it's next to impossible to detect, and interdict. There were some successes and failures of the program but overall it served its purpose. IN even tried to acquire the same SDVs but could never operationally deploy them.

In the 90s, Pakistan upgraded the concept by acquiring larger midgets, with even more lethal capability. These "X-Craft" were mainly operated by the Frogmen, hence became the unique force in the world who were both crew and payload. Pakistani midgets or X-Craft gave India a tough time in many standoffs...After the decommissioning of Daphne Subs, the X-Craft were absorbed by the submarine force who operate them till today.

Now that these craft are up for replacement, while being fully operational but having completed their useful life, a great rethink of CONOPS and Doctrine is needed. Does Pakistan still need Midget submarines?

Meanwhile, great work is progressing in conventional submarines, where Pakistan is extending the life of existing platforms, and acquiring new ones. In a few years, Pakistan submarine force shall be 13 units, a formidable force to reckon with.

However, majority of our coast remains to be "Shallow Waters." That means, even conventional submarines cannot operate here, hence traditional submariners love to keep their keel clear of the bottom of all times.

So how do the midgets fit into the fray? The 100 ton craft have their pros and cons. Iran, out of desperation and compulsion, have undertaken both Midget and compact submarine programs. The midgets are derived from a Korean design, which in-turn is a copy of Italians. The compact submarine seems to be a purely indigenous design, and is progressing along. However after building the Ghadir class, Iran realized that they needed something bigger. The compact submarine, Fateh, is noteworthy, as it has almost the range of a conventional submarine, yet it can operate in shallow waters. This allows Iranian Navy to keep its Kilo class submarines in deeper water and on shore/fleet strike roles, and its compact submarine on defence / offense roles. This is a good lesson for all or any countries looking to narrow the shallow water gap.

As Pakistan Navy moves forward, they should think beyond the limited capability of 100-200 ton submarines, and think of a compact submarine platform, that is able to operate in shallow water, but has no limitation to operate in similar environment of a conventional submarine. This platform could be anywhere from 500 to 700 tons, and have suitable operational and technical capability for Spec Ops. If any such platform exists, it could be a superb force multiplier for PN, and fill the gap created by having only conventional platforms (if so in the future), that may be left by X-Craft when they are retired. I remain confident that Pakistan Navy and its leadership will make a wise and thought out decision as they move to narrow the shallow water gap in their underwater operations.

Not only I agree with the author but I endorse it. Along with conventional heavy AIP Submarines new MIDGET Submarines are must for country like Pakistan. Modern midget Submarines can stay in water for way longer than older versions also they can more deep than older midget Subs. Therefore they should be bought as along with helping Special Forces they can help detect and even destroy enemy Submarines who have entered your water.

P-650 special-purpose midget submarine scale model as shown by Malakhit design bureau during IMDS naval show in St. Petersburg.

https://www.navyrecognition.com/ind...orces-to-receive-p-650-midget-submarines.html

https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/naval-warfare/imdex-asia-2019-drass-building-compact-submarines-/

@Tipu7 @Bilal Khan 777

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Not only I agree with the author but I endorse it. Along with conventional heavy AIP Submarines new MIDGET Submarines are must for country like Pakistan. Modern midget Submarines can stay in water for way longer than older versions also they can more deep than older midget Subs. Therefore they should be bought as along with helping Special Forces they can help detect and even destroy enemy Submarines who have entered your water.

P-650 special-purpose midget submarine scale model as shown by Malakhit design bureau during IMDS naval show in St. Petersburg.

https://www.navyrecognition.com/ind...orces-to-receive-p-650-midget-submarines.html

https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/naval-warfare/imdex-asia-2019-drass-building-compact-submarines-/

@Tipu7 @Bilal Khan 777

I really like what the Russians are doing...super titanium hulls, very promising features...however, its next to impossible trying to talk to them, or understand them. Their submarine expertise is a black box, and their involvement with the Indians keeps them reluctant. Additionally, they are not cheap. A P-650 could be around 400 Million USD new (as there are no used ones for them to offer, what they typically do to many countries).

Interesting link about Drass, who seem to be ahead in Midget/SWAT business, while everyone else have models and concepts, they seem to have something under construction.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I really like what the Russians are doing...super titanium hulls, very promising features...however, its next to impossible trying to talk to them, or understand them. Their submarine expertise is a black box, and their involvement with the Indians keeps them reluctant. Additionally, they are not cheap. A P-650 could be around 400 Million USD new (as there are no used ones for them to offer, what they typically do to many countries).

Interesting link about Drass, who seem to be ahead in Midget/SWAT business, while everyone else have models and concepts, they seem to have something under construction.

Drass said they have multiple DG160s and DG450s under construction since 2018 for an undisclosed customer. The odd thing is that I can't find the product page of the 'DG450' on their website. I guess, at the customer's request or discretion, Drass decided to take it down?

 

[Shah_Deu]

Drass said they have multiple DG160s and DG450s under construction since 2018 for an undisclosed customer. The odd thing is that I can't find the product page of the 'DG450' on their website. I guess, at the customer's request or discretion, Drass decided to take it down?

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Drass said they have multiple DG160s and DG450s under construction since 2018 for an undisclosed customer. The odd thing is that I can't find the product page of the 'DG450' on their website. I guess, at the customer's request or discretion, Drass decided to take it down?

yes, my assessment shows that they are the only compact submarine builder that seems to have progress. I can't speak for Drass, but It is possible that DG450's customer wanted the platform no more displayed on websites.

 

[PAR 5]

SWATS are uncommon vessels and no modern Navy has been using them lately. Hence most international manufacturers are not inclined to invest and make something a standard product that is only going to be used by 2-3 Naval customers. PN has the correct philosophy and approach in handling this. They are going for models designed to suit their needs alongside requirement of manufacturing them at KSEW. PN ambitions for this Project are clear. As soon as the situation of funding from GOP improves, the project will pick up pace. PN has engaged a few renowned sub manufacturers along with a few reputable design houses for the purpose.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

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DG550 seems to be a design evolution with some impressive characteristics. It looks menacing.

 

[Bratva]

yes, my assessment shows that they are the only compact submarine builder that seems to have progress. I can't speak for Drass, but It is possible that DG450's customer wanted the platform no more displayed on websites.

What about this mysterious Submarine which was reported couple months back ?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/hisutt...rvice-with-pakistani-navy-seals/#593578283ba2

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

SWATS are uncommon vessels and no modern Navy has been using them lately. Hence most international manufacturers are not inclined to invest and make something a standard product that is only going to be used by 2-3 Naval customers. PN has the correct philosophy and approach in handling this. They are going for models designed to suit their needs alongside requirement of manufacturing them at KSEW. PN ambitions for this Project are clear. As soon as the situation of funding from GOP improves, the project will pick up pace. PN has engaged a few renowned sub manufacturers along with a few reputable design houses for the purpose.

Seems like in white paper or discussion or in very early stages, and not concrete. Maybe PN will decide in 3-4 years or longer. Building in Shipyard would make sense. Which sub manufacturers are relevant to PN in your opinion? Which design houses have designs that meet PN's expectations?

What about this mysterious Submarine which was reported couple months back ?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/hisutt...rvice-with-pakistani-navy-seals/#593578283ba2

Yeah, very interesting, comments reserved.

 

[Muhammed45]

@Bilal Khan 777
Dear sir, you described it so well. So no need to add something to your analysis but i want to give you information about other projects in Iran.
IRGC has developed a UUV that is Second largest in its class according to @Philosopher in this thread. https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/iran...ncrewed-underwater-vehicle-elite-club.669025/

We could share the technology with Pakistan. These beast can sink every ship that India has among its Current inventory and their naval assets.
This UUV will make a naval blockade on Pakistan or Iran an impossible contingency.

The other project under Development is Besat submarine a 1300 ton beast. Capable of having VLS cruise missile. This One will Fill the gap between Fateh class and the Russian Kilo class subs.

Is there any chance to cooperate with Pakistan navy in this case or youd prefer Chinese ones? Given the fact that China has been producing subs for years now.

 

[PAR 5]

Seems like in white paper or discussion or in very early stages, and not concrete. Maybe PN will decide in 3-4 years or longer. Building in Shipyard would make sense. Which sub manufacturers are relevant to PN in your opinion? Which design houses have designs that meet PN's expectations?



Yeah, very interesting, comments reserved.

It’s not a white paper or discussion that is mostly in house pre project launch. NHQ has a formal NSR for this project defining exactly what they need in such a platform. Currently the DSMO or Directorate of Submarine Ops is in its head with the Agosta MLU with Turks and the Chinese Hangoor Project. As soon as that and the funding issues are resolved you will see progress towards SWATS.

The participants of the project are highly classified and cannot be revealed in an open forum infested with God knows who and from where.