Separation of Mosque and State

[Moonlight]

Indeed no one in this world has the power to take out "La illah" from anyone's heart, and no one in this world has the power to take out "illAllah" either.

Damnnnn. So that made you laugh? Seriously?

Of course we meant to say, no one is dare to take out the "Kalmah/Shahdah" from one's heart.

Turkish Political System.

Turkey is a parliamentary representative democracy. Since its foundation as a republic in 1923, Turkey has developed a strong tradition of secularism.Turkey's constitution governs the legal framework of the country. It sets out the main principles of government and establishes Turkey as a unitary centralized state. The President of the Republic is the head of state and has a largely ceremonial role. The president is elected for a five-year term by direct elections.



Executive power is exercised by the Prime Minister and the Council of Ministers which make up the government, while the legislativepower is vested in the unicameral parliament, the Grand National Assembly of Turkey(TBMM). The judiciary is independent of the executive and the legislature, and the Constitutional Court is charged with ruling on the conformity of laws and decrees with the constitution. The Council of State is the tribunal of last resort for administrative cases, and the High Court of Appeals for all others.

The prime minister is elected by the parliament through a vote of confidence in the government and is most often the head of the party having the most seats in parliament.


It is a constitutional monarchy with a secular mind?

Ok thanks. That was informative...

 

[Mansoon]

Indeed, that is why sacrificing a cow is crime in some parts of India. Muslims are forbidden to eat beef, sometimes imprisoned... and lower cast hindus are not considered equal to upper class etc.

Indeed it is a secular nation

It is secular but their laws are religious

 

[Baba Google]

Damnnnn. So that made you laugh? Seriously?

Of course we meant to say, no one is dare to take out the "Kalmah/Shahdah" from one's heart.

No sab dhakkan hain yaaar...

 

[Hyde]

It is secular but their laws are religious

in another words you are saying It is secular for name sake

 

[Moonlight]

No sab dhakkan hain yaaar...

Why don't you start giving classes to everyone on PDF. Since you are the only one who knows everything. Excluding you, rest are "idiot". Right?

Don't quote back. Thanks!

 

[PDFChamp]

I got your point. Now what is your point? What system is better? Secular or a ''divinely'' inspired system run by religious bigots?

No, not aimless secularism: where only the fittest survive. (especially if they are in other countries)

Secularism, from the experience of the developed west, tends to become atheistic and against religion over just a century or two; this has led to oppression of religious people. Look at the US at independence and now. We have a movement here to ban Islam. It's mostly the right wing church going kooks but they are helped by the new-atheists on the left. Lack of church attendance in Western Europe is also a problem which leads people losing their morals in large numbers. Who knows what will come next once people lose their compass??

Religion, at least Islam, has shown to suppress the extremists for the most part. The new extremists you see today are a byproduct of today's Geo-politics. The world powers have weaponized Islam for their political aims. And, we are in denial.

 

[Musafir117]

The difference is quite simple

In an attempt to prove loyalty to secularism, they bash religion for no reason.

Most so-called seculars on PDF I have met in 8-10 years are usually confused people who want to vent their anger out for religion in disguise of secularism. They are very much like opposite of militant religious fanatics who knows nothing but to hate in the name of religion


There is nothing wrong to challenge the mindset but you can only win the argument with wisdom. By offending others with statements like Islamism kills and Secularism doesn't you are doing no favour to yourself and will only engage in mudslinging rather than any constructive debate of logic

Sorry to disagree secular or liberals here ( mean Muslims members ) are not atheists neither LaDeen seculars majority mean LaDeen in here, you may be find extreme seculars here as well but majority in here are balanced one. What the balance of it if I am secular I do not inforce my thoughts to others my Aamal I have to answer it to God I count all human being same created by God Almighty with different color and creeds. I don't want to kill a person who don't believe what I'm believing I'm not an authority to distributing certificates who is Muslim and who is not.
Now the Islam in Pakistan is just a show piece if we call it Islam it's name of a religion imposed on us by jahil mullas Tell me what one thing is happening in Pakistan under the Islamic teachings? Panch time ki takren marna? Quran which is almost in a galaf on highest position keeping it just to see it? Almost we doing actually opposite of Islamic teaching.
1. Jhoot bolna aur beTahasha bolna.
2. Safai nissf Iman,Look around you.
3. Rishwat hamara qoumi fareeza
4. Corruption in all kind of fields.
5. Intolerance is common.
6. Morally individual not less corrupt than west.
Majority drink or used drugs even a 15,16 years old have 3 to 4 Gf or BF.
7. Shirk is common worshipping graves and make Sajida there is normal.
etc etc you name and I put dozens examples how we far from religion.
If the so called religious lover realy Islam why not they vote to the parties like JI or JUI F Or D whatever? When time come they vote PMLN Ppp MQM or PTI which of these parties doing Islamic things?
Don't blame on seculars or liberals they got fad up by the Islam which I showed you above and atleast they are not hypocrites. Peace

Edit.

So it's better we put away religion from the current state of affairs it's not work at all coz we have nothing in us to be proud as Muslims.

 

[Khanate]

Did Hitler call himself secular? or Pol pot or Stalin? Or even Mao? They didnt separate religion from state but oppressed and tried to destroy it.

Hitler emphasised again and again his belief that Nazism was a secular ideology founded on modern science. Science, he declared, would easily destroy the last remaining vestiges of superstition [-] 'In the long run', [Hitler] concluded, 'National Socialism and religion will no longer be able to exist together'"​

Source: Richard J. Evans; The Third Reich at War; Penguin Press; New York 2009, p. 547​

If you don't know what you're talking about then grab a book for a change.

 

[Verve]

Liberal fascists out in full force in this thread ...

 

[Cherokee]

and lower cast hindus are not considered equal to upper class etc.

Please quote according to which section of Indian Penal code ?

 

[Musafir117]

Liberal fascists out in full force in this thread ...

@Zaki this is an example which put up They even can't digest other views which lead to intolerance further lead to harm physically.

 

[Winchester]

The many problems of Pakistan won't go away with a simple separation of mosque and state.

Will that be a step in addressing "some" of the problems??

I believe so to a certain degree.

But I also believe that a "Ataturk" type purge will not work here just because of the diversity of the different ethnic groups.....and the constant feeding to the general population that Islam is the "only" thing that binds the country and nothing else. Without a thoughtout agreed phase out the whole federation could quickly unravel.

Also one thing I don't understand is Pakistanis living in secular countries, enjoying the fruits of a secular democracy that grants them rights as equal ciitizens even though they belong to a much maligned minority group so passionately opposed to separation of religion and state back in Pakistan.

 

[Mansoon]

Liberal fascists out in full force in this thread ...

Better than islamo fascists

 

[war&peace]

I think there is no problem in People who follow religion to be in Government

• However , we need to ensure that Wahabism does not gets spread in Pakistan

We need reformation

1- The Wahabist mentality where Music is Haram , and Driving for Women is haram or Long hair is Harm , or any thing Of joy of living is harm need to "NOT BE IN PAKISTAN"

2- The Capital Punishment , has to be evaluated by Lawyers (As it is part of faith to modify punishment or law for governence of people by general consensus.

3. While I am Sunni I have some strong reservation on Wahabist destroying Islamic heritage sites world wide , this has to stop , at same time we need modesty in our culture with respect to "Culture" of visiting Shrines. Be Humble

4. The Black Robe culture we imported from Gulf states need to end and the caged Robe for women we imported from Afganistan also had to end.

5. Last but not least we need to stop with the Hypocracy , free loading by Mullas who do no work and just get donation form community to run Mosques like a Business

6. Strong Strong reservation of Designating Shia Muslims as negative force as defined by many Gulf states , I do not agree with this in principle


Pakistani Government & People really need to Go back to their own roots

• Education , which won us freedom in 1900
  
• Political Movement , positive social work and community work
  
• Focus on Hospitals and Improving the cities and culture of society we own now

Provided the Man in Government office believe in three Golden Rules

• Education - Social Work - Hospitals & Service

That is what we need!

Normal Pakistani culture

This Wahabism is not Pakistan's culture

Wahabism spread globally around 1800-1900 , Pakistan was generally shielded by it's effects as
we were part of British Empire and also it was generally not a practice in Pakistan to act like this

In last 20-30 Years the Pakistani community working in Wahabist countries are coming back to Pakistan with Imported views about dress code and this is further problometic due to Wahabist
Schools which were sponsored by Outside countries


Most of the Wahabist idealogies do not match what was generally acceptable in Society by Muslims

• There are various accounts people had long hair back in old time
• Also there is ample proof that the Rich Muslims enjoyed various clothes and fashion
• Also ample example of people in past culture who enjoyed Music instruments

Anyone who call himsself a "Mulwi" actually need to be educated Bachelors !!! from a Recognized university that Teaches the man on all aspect of religion and not focused on Wahabism

Really sad to see how much a person can distort the facts and lie, I have seen pictures of my grand mother and great grand mother and they used to wear the black burqa...that's the culture of Indian Muslim women because all of the Muslims are supposed to follow Islam (Holy Quran and Hadeeth) so whether its is USA, Pakistan or KSA as long as a person believe in Islam and practices, his / her appearance and dress will be similar with minor differences according to the climatic conditions so the culture has been like this since before partition in 1947...and the model girl you are showing as a representative of Pakistani culture is another blatant lie....that's not Pakistan culture at all but perhaps of 1.0 or 1.5 percent of the population lowest strata (ethically). Just take a camera on the street in some middle class area and then record 1 hour of video and see what people are wearing...but of course it is child like to expect honesty from the people who have sickness in their heart and Allah increases that.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Liberal fascists out in full force in this thread ...

Liberal fascist is an oxymoron.

And why do you hate liberals so much ?




Sir Syed Ahmed Khan is hailed as the father of the two nation theory. He, in a lecture given by him before a large and very influential audience of Muslims in Lucknow, on 18th December, 1887, said :

" ..... Gentlemen, I am not a Conservative, I am a great Liberal.... "


Allama Muhammad Iqbal said :

"We heartily welcome the liberal movement in modern Islam..."

and

"The claim of the present generation of Muslim liberals to re-interpret the foundational legal principles, in the light of their own experience and the altered conditions of modern life, is, in my opinion, perfectly justified."

(Mohammad Iqbal, The Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam)



And Jinnah fits quite closely the model of the classic liberal politician. He wanted a Liberal constitution for Pakistan as well (as recorded by Fatima Jinnah in "My Brother")



The Fact is : "Pakistan movement was strongly opposed by extremist Muslims aka Mullahs and their followers, supported by moderate Muslims, and spearheaded by Liberal and Secular Muslims"


The Irony is "today Liberal and secular Muslims are "traitors" on the payroll of CIA/Mossad/RAW etc., Moderate Muslims are 'Wajib ul Qatl Mushriks', and the Mullahs are 'the representatives and protectors of the ideology of Pakistan' " !!!