Separation of Mosque and State

[M. Sarmad]

They are killing people and call themselves secular parties and want to keep religion and state separate so cut the crap and get a life .

So, going by your your logic, every time someone who "calls himself" Muslim commits a crime (any crime), Islam is to be blamed ? ..... You really are dumb

 

[JAGGA-J]

Islam establishes true democratic principals & teaches the separation of Faith & State as there is no other way to live in peace.

 

[Clutch]

Politicians also preach hate. MQM is secular part so is BLA and ANP the secular party had massive history of terrorism.The goons of PML N are also quite a killers nothing to do with Islam.

Yes i also agree there. But they aren't responsible for the scale of destruction globally as the extremist products of largely failed mosques.

Please don't get me wrong.. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with Islam. I'm rather saying the failure is with the muslims. The muslims are the custodians of the mosque. Islam isn't. There could be unislamic things in the mosque.

The only difference is... according to most muslims they put the blame on the fact that most muslims aren't following Islam... and that is the problem. I say no.... Rather i say the muslims who claim to follow Islam i.e. the scholarship the imams the people at the mosque they have failed. They are not following Islam.

Because we don't see these so called religious muslims fighti g for social justice against oppression... against extremism. When did you see a protest by the Islamic groups against the Lal masjid extremists. When did you see protests by so called pious muslims against Saudi Arabia ban on women's driving... against so called Honor killings? ... never! They only protests against the removal of the so called blasphemy law.. Against the West... against the jews... against TV... etc. They lost the moral ground.

No social justice from the mosque... hence no role in governance.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Islam establishes true democratic principals & teaches the separation of Faith & State as there is no other way to live in peace.

What you are saying is true

But that qualifies as blasphemy and is equivalent of kufr here on PDF ..

 

[Clutch]

Islam establishes true democratic principals & teaches the separation of Faith & State as there is no other way to live in peace.

Only In history books

 

[Hell hound]

just making Pakistan secular or separating religion from the state with a single stroke of pen will have about zero effect on Pakistan.as these steps aren't suddenly going to make our public more tolerant or open minded.for that to happen we need to lay a proper base.
which includes education reforms, review and the addition of tolerant content in our curriculum.bringing all mosques and madrasas under one curriculum and one state instead of demonising them and further pushing them into the hands of extremists.
living in Pakistan long enough I came to know that most people here are unwilling to separate the state from religion.you can't implement what general public don't want.but what you can do is stop these sectarian hate spewing factories we call mosques by regulating the khutbas and byans like Saudia did.In saudia, you can't use the mosque for anything else other than praying (absolutely nothing) and every Friday khutba is regulated and issued by the state to minimise the sectarian hate.
if you want to make Pakistan a better place to live all we have to do is educate our population and by educating i don't mean just churning out the zombies we are producing these days we need the education system which can produce people who can think and differentiate between right and wrong all by themselves and can listen/tolerate opinions other than their own.

 

[Aasimkhan]

In Pakistan, Secularists are not slitting throats of innocent people while chanting "Secularism is great" ... Communists are not blowing themselves up in mosques and churches shouting "Lenin is great" ....... Get a life dude

MQM is secularist look what they did in Baldia town, those slitting the throats are not muslims by any standards, they are Khwarjis and they are trained by RAW Mossad and CIA

 

[JAGGA-J]

"There will come a time upon the people when nothing will remain of Islam except its name only and nothing will remain of the Quran except its inscription. Their mosques will be splendidly furnished but destitute of guidance. Their divines will be the worst people under the heaven and strife will issue from and avert to them."
(Mishkatul Masabih, Kitabul Ilm)

 

[Jugger]

I think there is no problem in People who follow religion to be in Government

• However , we need to ensure that Wahabism does not gets spread in Pakistan

We need reformation

1- The Wahabist mentality where Music is Haram , and Driving for Women is haram or Long hair is Harm , or any thing Of joy of living is harm need to "NOT BE IN PAKISTAN"

2- The Capital Punishment , has to be evaluated by Lawyers (As it is part of faith to modify punishment or law for governence of people by general consensus.

3. While I am Sunni I have some strong reservation on Wahabist destroying Islamic heritage sites world wide , this has to stop , at same time we need modesty in our culture with respect to "Culture" of visiting Shrines. Be Humble

4. The Black Robe culture we imported from Gulf states need to end and the caged Robe for women we imported from Afganistan also had to end.

5. Last but not least we need to stop with the Hypocracy , free loading by Mullas who do no work and just get donation form community to run Mosques like a Business

6. Strong Strong reservation of Designating Shia Muslims as negative force as defined by many Gulf states , I do not agree with this in principle


Pakistani Government & People really need to Go back to their own roots

• Education , which won us freedom in 1900
  
• Political Movement , positive social work and community work
  
• Focus on Hospitals and Improving the cities and culture of society we own now

Provided the Man in Government office believe in three Golden Rules

• Education - Social Work - Hospitals & Service

That is what we need!

Normal Pakistani culture

This Wahabism is not Pakistan's culture

Wahabism spread globally around 1800-1900 , Pakistan was generally shielded by it's effects as
we were part of British Empire and also it was generally not a practice in Pakistan to act like this

In last 20-30 Years the Pakistani community working in Wahabist countries are coming back to Pakistan with Imported views about dress code and this is further problometic due to Wahabist
Schools which were sponsored by Outside countries


Most of the Wahabist idealogies do not match what was generally acceptable in Society by Muslims

• There are various accounts people had long hair back in old time
• Also there is ample proof that the Rich Muslims enjoyed various clothes and fashion
• Also ample example of people in past culture who enjoyed Music instruments

Anyone who call himsself a "Mulwi" actually need to be educated Bachelors !!! from a Recognized university that Teaches the man on all aspect of religion and not focused on Wahabism

A very good and progressive post, wahabism is a threat first to fellow muslims then to the rest.

 

[AUz]

Another one of those stupid cliche' threads that have no basis in our history.

Notion of separation of church and state comes from Europe because it was a problem in Europe where there was Pope which used to rule on the basis that God speaks to him.

In Islam, we never had this problem. In Islam, there's no pope but learned scholars. The very nature of Islam is different from pagal christianity.

Please stop being stupid and learn to adapt your own culture and take pride in it.

Desi wanna be liberal haven't read a book in their lives. All they know is dialogues like "Freedom" "Choice" "Don't judge" and offcourse "Separation of Mosque and State" LOL

Idiots...

 

[Jugger]

Indeed, that is why sacrificing a cow is crime in some parts of India. Muslims are forbidden to eat beef, sometimes imprisoned... and lower cast hindus are not considered equal to upper class etc.

Indeed it is a secular nation

It is secular by law and constitution, if equality is not implemented on ground then thats the bigotry of the people and not of the govt.

 

[Clutch]

Another one of those stupid cliche' threads that have no basis in our history.

Notion of separation of church and state comes from Europe because it was a problem in Europe where there was Pope which used to rule on the basis that God speaks to him.

In Islam, we never had this problem. In Islam, there's no pope but learned scholars. The very nature of Islam is different from pagal christianity.

Please stop being stupid and learn to adapt your own culture and take pride in it.

Desi wanna be liberal haven't read a book in their lives. All they know is dialogues like "Freedom" "Choice" "Don't judge" and offcourse "Separation of Mosque and State" LOL

Idiots...

True... but one thing you missed... the achilles heel of Islam is the Muslims leaders, imams, mullahs, and scholars. When they go bad... then Islam has the same problems as the corrupt Pope as you put it.

The Islamic scholarship has failed us for over a hundred years... and today we are reaping it's failures.

That's a point most fail to recognize. It isn't a failure of Islam.. Rather it's a failure of muslims. Actually the Quraan warns of this itself.

 

[Awan68]

The administrators of this forum should take notice if this thread, pakistan was made on the basis of islam and islam is the only and first ideology that offered minorities full rights, secularsim is a sham which still hasnt been able to give the blacks thier due rights on the west, posting such threads amounts to treason to the state of pakistan, its against our constitution, its against the sentiments of 99% people of this country, this is against the basis of formation of pakistan, jinnah and company fough to create pakistan for islam, religion was the only basis of separation, jinnah said that pakistan will be based on islamic socialism and not anyother ism's, dont distort jinnah's words, what he saif about minorities was islamic principles of a state not secularist principles, so the admins should ban such threads which represent the sentiment of israel and enemies of islam, smarten up for gods sake this is pakistan defence forum no threads that go against the ideology of pakistan should be allowed here, the admins should know that u are responsible for thousands of young minds that read this forum, thousands of immature minds and if someone here gets infected with secularism or athiesm due a thread that on u, u will have to answer to Allah for that on the day of judgement remember that, u dont have to answer to present pretender masters of earth,u will have to report oneday to the true master of them all and He will hold u accountable, this is information warfare dont u know that, why the hell are u allowing this, so its my humble request that u set a paramemter for this forum that any unislamic or any thread that threatens islam in anyway will be banned, dont u think islam deserves that respect??, people here should focus on defence discussion and politics etc whatever they want but ban unislamic threads once and for all, who soever has a problem with this u should let them leave, similarly u should ban harsh sentiments towars any other religions too to balanxe out our foriegn friends, its up to u in the end but i insisit thay u do this, Allah will bestow his mercy upon u for this...

 

[Clutch]

"There will come a time upon the people when nothing will remain of Islam except its name only and nothing will remain of the Quran except its inscription. Their mosques will be splendidly furnished but destitute of guidance. Their divines will be the worst people under the heaven and strife will issue from and avert to them."
(Mishkatul Masabih, Kitabul Ilm)

Exactly... beautifully said. I believe we are in this time. So isn't it only logical that in such a time that there should be a separation of state and the failing mosque?

The administrators of this forum should take notice if this thread, pakistan was made on the basis of islam and islam is the only and first ideology that offered minorities full rights, secularsim is a sham which still hasnt been able to give the blacks thier due rights on the west, posting such threads amounts to treason to the state of pakistan, its against our constitution, its against the sentiments of 99% people of this country, this is against the basis of formation of pakistan, jinnah and company fough to create pakistan for islam, religion was the only basis of separation, jinnah said that pakistan will be based on islamic socialism and not anyother ism's, dont distort jinnah's words, what he saif about minorities was islamic principles of a state not secularist principles, so the admins should ban such threads which represent the sentiment of israel and enemies of islam, smarten up for gods sake this is pakistan defence forum no threads that go against the ideology of pakistan should be allowed here, the admins should know that u are responsible for thousands of young minds that read this forum, thousands of immature minds and if someone here gets infected with secularism or athiesm due a thread that on u, u will have to answer to Allah for that on the day of judgement remember that, u dont have to answer to present pretender masters of earth,u will have to report oneday to the true master of them all and He will hold u accountable, this is information warfare dont u know that, why the hell are u allowing this, so its my humble request that u set a paramemter for this forum that any unislamic or any thread that threatens islam in anyway will be banned, dont u think islam deserves that respect??, people here should focus on defence discussion and politics etc whatever they want but ban unislamic threads once and for all, who soever has a problem with this u should let them leave, similarly u should ban harsh sentiments towars any other religions too to balanxe out our foriegn friends, its up to u in the end but i insisit thay u do this, Allah will bestow his mercy upon u for this...

Don't worrg too much about younge minds reading about secularism and getting "influenced" ... rather worry about them getting influenced by extremists.

Look at the poll... majority are for separation of mosque and state.

 

[Cherokee]

Also one thing I don't understand is Pakistanis living in secular countries, enjoying the fruits of a secular democracy that grants them rights as equal ciitizens even though they belong to a much maligned minority group so passionately opposed to separation of religion and state back in Pakistan.

Similar trend is growing amongst Indians as well .