Sensitive Data of Indian Navy’s Scorpene Class Submarines Leaked

[Shankranthi]

Then why ask things like "what are you today?" Or are you trying to be a rhetorical smarty pants? It will back-fire badly.

Just like earlier you were like "yeah i've read them!!" when I asked about FEA (specifically abaqus and creo)manuals....and later you were all "I never said I read them".

Anyways enough waste of time talking to you in this topic. Good day.

I said 'yes', to having read large manuals since I approve them for all my projects. In fact I am reviewing a few documents even now.

Half my job is reviewing documents of all kinds from contracts, to design documents to process documents to manuals and I have been doing them for years.

So now that I know that you are a kid with a fragile ego, remember to stay away.

 

[Nilgiri]

I did a series on the subject, EMSEC and COMSEC. I can find these threads for anyone interested.

Be warned that they are heavy reading and very technical.

I am interested...

Are they archived here in this forum under another account name of yours perhaps?

BTW, be careful posting links to other forums directly, it is against this forum rules.

 

[dadeechi]

This would be bigger headache for DCNS than anyone else.

Countries would no longer trust their products.

Seems like a huge sabotage by their competitor.

 

[Olaf One-Brow]

Honestly I don't even want to know, basics are enough.

I can't get into too much detail, but there are alternative methods to the normal electromagnetic or SONAR detection that is most common.

Tracking sea life moving away from the submarine has been shown possible, though the ocean isn't saturated and it's inconsistent at best as a form of detection. Think of this like John Warner here. While these dolphins are playing, there are methods, such as SONAR or various remote sensing capabilities (the exact methods are classified) to track the movement of sea life moving away from the submarine:

I know we had a discussion about reactor noise on AMF, but what we didn't have a discussion about is reactor leakage. Radiological contaminants. Nothing that would be harmful to the crew, but definitely noticeable enough to orbiting aircraft like the WC-135 Constant Phoenix that monitors deep underground North Korean nuclear tests:

The US also maintains a fleet of radiological contaminant detecting UAVs, for tracking radiological material smuggling, such as stolen medical waste or to patrol high value, high traffic areas such as G20 meetings or Olympics, where terrorism concerns are heightened.

The United States maintains a handful of maritime orient versions.

Water is great at diluting nuclear particles, but a near surface nuclear boat, or Boomer near surface to fire its weapons can be detected. The depth of detection, you guessed it, is classified.

Wave currents can also be detected. While streamlined, a moving body does create a current, typically in a V shape. Noise is also generated during this event and it's one of the main reasons we see submarine sails, dive plains and rudders being refined, such as the Virginia Class's storable dive plains and angled forward tower.

How these currents are detected is not something I can currently give out.

Finally, though they are a significant contributor to noise, cavitation, or bubbles as they are often known as, can leave a detectable trail. The prop designs are giving way to Pump Jets which produce less and less long-lasting bubble trails. While the bubbles themselves dissipate rather quickly, and generate detectable noise in the process, disturbed water lingers longer and can be detected.

Pump Jets help with this problem.

This is a but a few signatures that are alternatives to the electromagnetic and acoustic that most people highlight when discussing ASW warfare. They are not the only alternative methods.

 

[Shankranthi]

This would be bigger headache for DCNS than anyone else.

Countries would no longer trust their products.

Seems like a huge sabotage by their competitor.

DCNS has no business blaming others for this. They screwed up big time by not having a half decent document control or even access control.

 

[Olaf One-Brow]

I am interested...

Search through my myriad of + ratings. This series is where I got most of them from:

https://defence.pk/members/svensvensonov.163324/

 

[Nilgiri]

Search through my myriad of + ratings. This series is where I got most of them from:

https://defence.pk/members/svensvensonov.163324/

Oh you are sven!....haha now i get it!

 

[dadeechi]

DCNS has no business blaming others for this. They screwed up big time by not having a half decent document control or even access control.

Fully agreed. I am actually very surprised how such documents could be copied out of their network... This is a huge IT security lapse. Even mom and pop shops have very tight security in place.

 

[Olaf One-Brow]

could be the usa still pushing for japan. or jpan pushing for japan or a foreign inteligance agency who want to cause probelms to india, france and Australia.

I'm not sure what the US would have to gain as it tries to court India, in fact, it'd lose more if India determined the US was behind this incident, like future contracts or consideration, cooperation agreements and diplomatic potential, which is vital as the US tries to keep a certain nation in check, for which India's assistance is very welcomed.

We aren't so desperate for contracts that we'd sabotage a minor deal, for six submarines, just to get a few contracts for systems put into Japanese exported boats, assuming India would even want US systems like Norway does with their Ula replacement or Australia does with their Collins replacement.

If the goal was to boost Japan's export industry and get them a major contract, well that goes again US wishes to expand our own defense industry, so we'd be shooting ourselves in the knee.

The US would lose a lot more then if could potentially gain, as the gains aren't even significant. It's not like we aren't interested in their capabilities though, we just wouldn't go around plastering them on the internet.

Maybe Russia trying to sabotage India's tender and drum up some business for Kilo or Lada or the developmental Kalina class, but again, they'd have much to lose if their fingers are found on the leak.

Now has anyone seen my hat?

 

[mrwarrior006]

Image leaked. As you can see all very hi tech and top of the range, only the best for supapowapowa

Irony is Pakistan cant even develop this

 

[Nilgiri]

Now has anyone seen my hat?

Down aisle 4 next to the paper cups.

 

[Abingdonboy]

@Abingdonboy @Blue Marlin @Nilgiri

Our friend Parik's post tell everything.
To be honest,I won't be surprised if there's a "foreign" hand involved in this.

This is the first thing I thought of when I saw this news and the timing is no coincidence.

I'm also intersted to see who this affects DCNS's standing in India. From what I can see DCNS was set to see enourmous revenues from India in the coming decade (it has already tied up with Indian entities and is participating in a number of Indian procurements).Most immediately, I would wonder how this affects the follow on order for 3-6 addtional Scorpenes for the IN that was in the advanced stages of clearance? @PARIKRAMA any ideas bro? Of course it depends on the nature of the leaked information and this will only be known to a few induviduals as of right now but in a worst case scenerio the IN's most advanced SSKs are comprimised before they even join the active fleet and the chances of follow-on orders are next to nil.

There is a HUGE ammount on the line for DCNS (literally tens of billions of euros and their entire reputation), so I am sure they will pressure the French government to throw their maximum resources to tackle this spectacuar scandel. Heads are surely set to roll.

thanks for clearing it up but if the data wa taken out of france in 2011 then why was it being leaked 5 years later?

Now that is the multi multi billion dollar question....

 

[wiseone2]

Very serious.. In better places, contract would be scrapped, subs returned and DCNS banned and penalized but this being India, they will likely get a free pass and information leakage would be downplayed.

Dont be naive - this is corporate damage control.. I have seen it hundreds of times - it smells exactly the same everytime.

Just look at how DCNS is washing it's hands off.. They are least bothered about India - Putting the blame on India to salvage the Australian contract. They did this earlier too at expense of India when they promised Aussies exclusivity and specially mentioned India would not be granted access to certain tech..

The DCNS also implied that the leak might have occurred at India's end, rather than from France.

"Uncontrolled technical data is not possible in the Australian Aarrangements," the company said as per the report in The Australian.

"Multiple and independent controls exist within DCNS to prevent unauthorised access to data and all data movements are encrypted and recorded. In the case of India, where a DCNS design is built by a local company, DCNS is the provider and not the controller of technical data," it said

Does India have a choice here ?

 

[Abingdonboy]

+ @PARIKRAMA @Vergennes I don't want to go too far down the rabbit hole and get too "tin foil hat esque" but I find it very odd/interesting that once again there is news that targets DCNS's bid for the Aussie sub project that has an Indian element. Remember the news not long ago that said that France/DCNS would be unable to seel certain tech to India if/when the Aussies selected the Barracuda at the behest of the Australians who had explictly singled out India (which was later refuted)? Now once again India is being dragged into the Aussie sub project and it seems all three nations are going to get very hurt.

It's all very bizzare and I don't think it's a coincidence.

Japan, China,Russia and maybe even the Americans all seek to gain immensely here.

I hope, whatever the reality that the truth is exposed for all to see and I trust the French to do this- all too often India allows the truth to be lost behind soft words and diplomatic "considerations". I'm glad this happened with the French (as opposed to the Russians who seem unable to tell the truth) the French prosecutors will call a spade a spade.

This would be bigger headache for DCNS than anyone else.

Countries would no longer trust their products.

Seems like a huge sabotage by their competitor.

Very very true, it is DCNS that would be hurt more than anyone else depending on the nature of the lapse.

But it should also be noted that it is rather well known that China has hacked/sourced detailed project plans and blueprints for the F-22 and F-35 (as well as the USN's latest warships) and the US ackowledges as much but this has hardly factored into those actual products being questioned. It is all about the details- who got what and when.

 

[A_Poster]

Yeah buy French

If not, what else?

Americans would control how you use their weapons and whom you target with them.
Continental European ,barring France, are hypocrite cucks who could turn against you anytime over mythical human rights violations.At least French are only interested in profits.
Russia is a completely different actor. If we want Russian tech, we would not had looked for western tech.

This incident (and lot others kaands too) highlight the need to have your own defence industry. But wait! Even that is not completely leak proof. Our very own 'secular' Trinmool congress placed a secular ISI agent to spy on Kamrota class in Garden reach using its union.

That is true, under no circumstances it can be business as usual. I just pray that leak is not from Indian side. If yes, then there would be hell to pay.

If the leak is from Indian side, a purge of suspected corrupt officers is in order. Doing corruption in form of skimming some profits on foreign products is bad enough, but leaking classified information is a whole new form of corruption and much more serious.

Very serious.. In better places, contract would be scrapped, subs returned and DCNS banned and penalized but this being India, they will likely get a free pass and information leakage would be downplayed.

Even if everything about this submarine has been leaked, the contract could not be scraped at this stage. The worst that could be done is not to order add on submarines, and make some modification in those who are already in construction.Else IN would be submarineless for a decade.

An example of this is already in form of BlackShark torpedo. Even after going through all that song and dance of banning Finmecca, government has to go back on its word and eat crow to allow Black shark torpedo ,within a month, as subs have been designed with specifications of that torpedo.


Also knowing and being able to target is not the same thing. So even after leak of worst kind, these submarines would be quite capable against Pakistan, but same can't be said about China.

Does India have a choice here ?

NO.

The worse part is that this leak could very well have been done by US or China or Russia to screw up India so that we do not get too close to France.

Let me rephrase that. Its a Lose Lose Lose situation because France could not keep its $hit together. This is what happens when you enter into a bad marriage. Everybody is unhappy.

If leak is substantial, you could rule out China. If they had got their hand on some secrets, they would have kept their mouth shut.

Biggest gainer from this (if leak is substantial) would be Russia and USA in that order.