Secularism in India is an illusion

[veer bhogya vasundhara]

I think instead of finding things that are wrong in India, let us do something novel and different and find things that are right in India so we can emulate those things and catch up with India.

Don't you think that is a brilliant idea ?

really man u talk like a sage..... kudos to ur thinking.. its indeed a brilliant idea but will find very few takers in pakistan

 

[idune]

You completely missed the point. I don't value articles on the basis of whether it is written by a hindu or a muslim, it is the content that matters. So pointing out that the author is a hindu does not elevate the stature of the article in my eyes, just as saying that it was written by a muslim doesn't demean it. You see, I'm secular.

What my post said was that this paper advertises itself as "Indian muslims' leading newspaper" - by definition, that goes against secularism, if they publish only for one religious group. A newspaper which is so blatantly unsecular has no business questioning India's secularism, and that was my point. Not that it was written by muslims.

I did not miss anything. I just pointed out how your argument that an article published in Muslim newspaper can not be "secular".
Here is what you said.

This comes from the milli gazette, which advertises itself as "Indian muslims' leading newspaper". Wonder how secular that is?

And to the point, when people in india who have experienced repression because of their religion, cast and belief can say yes we are not repressed and india. That would be ultimate approval. Mainstream indian media propaganda has no value in that approval.

 

[bindaas]

Jamati idune talking about secularism.

 

[idune]

7 Indianisms from Politics and Media

1. Coalition Dharma

Once upon a time, there were elections held for 540 seats. 321 parties contested in the elections. One party won 220 seats. And, 320 parties won one seat each. Thus was born coalition dharma, a term used in Indian politics to describe the dynamics of putting and keeping a government in place. Think of it as a pact among thieves. I won’t ask. You don’t tell. Let’s all just happily get along. Until, of course, the Supreme Court sends us all to jail.

2. Letting the law take its course

Let’s pretend that your worst political rival has just been arrested on false charges. And, it looks like he might go away for a long time, if the charges stick. A journalist calls you at two in the morning to get your reaction. What do you say?

You let the law take its own course – much like a Bollywood movie does, after the interval break. No one knows the law. No one knows where it’s going. It’s but natural that everyone wants it to take its own course.

3. O High Command, Hallowed be thy name. Your kingdom come

High Command. This one’s exclusive to and a favorite of the Congress party. Which sick, spineless, obsequious sycophant came up with this one? It begs basic questions such as – Who’s in command? And why is she high?

This blot on Indian political lingo evokes images of an acid-dropping long-haired hippy singing Dum Maaro Dum, while seated in front of a Star Trek style spaceship console and remote controlling one-eyed aliens from outer space.

4. If you’re not secular, you must be communal

The Age of Enlightenment (or the Age of Reason) was a cultural movement of intellectuals in 18th century Europe, that sought to reform society and advance knowledge. It promoted science and intellectual discourse, opposed superstition, intolerance and sought the separation of church from state. Out of this movement came the word ‘secular’ – to denote a state of being separate from religion.

The word secular has taken on a life of its own in Indian media and politics, and has now turned into a farcical comedy. A “secular” political alliance in India could include a motley crew of Communists, Muslim League, Congress and characters such as Mulayam Singh and Laloo Prasad Yadav. What on earth makes them secular, you may wonder. Is it shared admiration for intellect, reason and logic? No Sir. They are secular because they are not communal.

5. Hand in hand with the foreign hand

In the movie, Sixth Sense, a boy claims to be able “to see dead people”. Our politicians have a similar uncanny ability to see “foreign hands”. The power of the foreign hand is not to be underestimated.

Imagine a crisis-struck government seated around the table and brainstorming options.

“Can we blame the opposition for this crisis?”

“Nope. Those guys have been comatose since they lost the elections”

“Can we put this down to compulsions of coalition dharma?”

“Not a good idea”

“Do we know what’s going on?”

“No”

“Ok. Let’s blame the foreign hand then. Anyone against this proposal, raise your foreign hand”

6. One man’s jolt is another man’s setback

Jolts and setbacks are favorites of the newspapers.

A setback is simply any random event, used to disparage your bête-noire.

“Narendra Modi suffered a sharp setback when his car failed to pass the smog test yesterday”

Geez, what a monster. He deserved what he got. Hope he rots in hell.

A jolt is used to describe a cataclysmic event, while expressing nonchalance, astonishment and controlled outrage – all in one go.

“The UPA government suffered a jolt when the Supreme Court convicted 3 cabinet ministers and sentenced them to life imprisonment without bail”

It’s no biggie. It’s just a jolt. Gosh, what a surprise. I’d have never guessed this turn of events. Is the Supreme Court really trustworthy, I wonder?

7. Civil Society

In the midst of a movie, I once had to admonish my neighbor for talking loudly on his mobile phone. His choices, I told him, were either to stop talking or leave the theatre. His impressively defiant response, “You have no right to tell me what to do. We live in a civil society”, momentarily stunned me into silence.

This phrase has appeared out of nowhere and rapidly penetrated public consciousness, thanks to Anna Hazare’s crusade. And, its tentacles have spread into domains where it has no place.

My advice: When on the defensive, take the moral high ground by playing the civil society card.

“What? You want a thousand rupees bribe to give me an LPG connection? That’s outrageous. We live in a civil society. I’ll give you no more than five hundred”

(Reported by Laughing Gas and originally published in What Ho!)

7 Indianisms from Politics and Media | The UnReal Times

 

[KS]

For starters Nellie massacre [or they call it cleansing] was by Indian tribals on illegal Bangali muslims who had migrated from Bangladesh and who were usurping their land and resources.

Now if that idiot Mukul Sinha suggests that those illegals must be served chicken biryani and given citizenship, I spit on him.

 

[janon]

I did not miss anything. I just pointed out how your argument that an article published in Muslim newspaper can not be "secular".
Here is what you said.

First you missed the point, now you are pretending to miss it, after I gave a clear explanation. It is not an article that is secular or not, and I did not say an article in a muslim newspaper cannot be secular. I said that if they advertise themselves as a newspaper for muslims alone, thats not very secular of them - the group. And then you replied by highlighting the name of the author, as if to say "oh look he is a hindu" - not understanding the fact that sane people don't judge the merit of articles by the religion of the author, but by its contents. One of us is very secular, the other is not. You really shouldn't start threads about India being non secular when you don't seem to understand the concept of secularism - you being a person who highlights the name (thereby religion) of the author to establish credibility.

 

[livingdead]

7 Indianisms from Politics and Media

1. Coalition Dharma

Once upon a time, there were elections held for 540 seats. 321 parties contested in the elections. One party won 220 seats. And, 320 parties won one seat each. Thus was born coalition dharma, a term used in Indian politics to describe the dynamics of putting and keeping a government in place. Think of it as a pact among thieves. I won’t ask. You don’t tell. Let’s all just happily get along. Until, of course, the Supreme Court sends us all to jail.

2. Letting the law take its course

Let’s pretend that your worst political rival has just been arrested on false charges. And, it looks like he might go away for a long time, if the charges stick. A journalist calls you at two in the morning to get your reaction. What do you say?

You let the law take its own course – much like a Bollywood movie does, after the interval break. No one knows the law. No one knows where it’s going. It’s but natural that everyone wants it to take its own course.

3. O High Command, Hallowed be thy name. Your kingdom come

High Command. This one’s exclusive to and a favorite of the Congress party. Which sick, spineless, obsequious sycophant came up with this one? It begs basic questions such as – Who’s in command? And why is she high?

This blot on Indian political lingo evokes images of an acid-dropping long-haired hippy singing Dum Maaro Dum, while seated in front of a Star Trek style spaceship console and remote controlling one-eyed aliens from outer space.

4. If you’re not secular, you must be communal

The Age of Enlightenment (or the Age of Reason) was a cultural movement of intellectuals in 18th century Europe, that sought to reform society and advance knowledge. It promoted science and intellectual discourse, opposed superstition, intolerance and sought the separation of church from state. Out of this movement came the word ‘secular’ – to denote a state of being separate from religion.

The word secular has taken on a life of its own in Indian media and politics, and has now turned into a farcical comedy. A “secular” political alliance in India could include a motley crew of Communists, Muslim League, Congress and characters such as Mulayam Singh and Laloo Prasad Yadav. What on earth makes them secular, you may wonder. Is it shared admiration for intellect, reason and logic? No Sir. They are secular because they are not communal.

5. Hand in hand with the foreign hand

In the movie, Sixth Sense, a boy claims to be able “to see dead people”. Our politicians have a similar uncanny ability to see “foreign hands”. The power of the foreign hand is not to be underestimated.

Imagine a crisis-struck government seated around the table and brainstorming options.

“Can we blame the opposition for this crisis?”

“Nope. Those guys have been comatose since they lost the elections”

“Can we put this down to compulsions of coalition dharma?”

“Not a good idea”

“Do we know what’s going on?”

“No”

“Ok. Let’s blame the foreign hand then. Anyone against this proposal, raise your foreign hand”

6. One man’s jolt is another man’s setback

Jolts and setbacks are favorites of the newspapers.

A setback is simply any random event, used to disparage your bête-noire.

“Narendra Modi suffered a sharp setback when his car failed to pass the smog test yesterday”

Geez, what a monster. He deserved what he got. Hope he rots in hell.

A jolt is used to describe a cataclysmic event, while expressing nonchalance, astonishment and controlled outrage – all in one go.

“The UPA government suffered a jolt when the Supreme Court convicted 3 cabinet ministers and sentenced them to life imprisonment without bail”

It’s no biggie. It’s just a jolt. Gosh, what a surprise. I’d have never guessed this turn of events. Is the Supreme Court really trustworthy, I wonder?

7. Civil Society

In the midst of a movie, I once had to admonish my neighbor for talking loudly on his mobile phone. His choices, I told him, were either to stop talking or leave the theatre. His impressively defiant response, “You have no right to tell me what to do. We live in a civil society”, momentarily stunned me into silence.

This phrase has appeared out of nowhere and rapidly penetrated public consciousness, thanks to Anna Hazare’s crusade. And, its tentacles have spread into domains where it has no place.

My advice: When on the defensive, take the moral high ground by playing the civil society card.

“What? You want a thousand rupees bribe to give me an LPG connection? That’s outrageous. We live in a civil society. I’ll give you no more than five hundred”

(Reported by Laughing Gas and originally published in What Ho!)

7 Indianisms from Politics and Media | The UnReal Times

We have adopted the word 'secular' and have indianized it. In India,the word secular does not mean separation of church and state(which is obvious in India, no Shankaracharya holds any post of importance nor can he dictate laws), but letting people of all religion practice their faith and govt encourage each such faith(which is odd, because govt should not be encouraging religion at all, if secular)

It is true that opposite of word 'secular' is 'communal' in India, and mostly used to beat 'BJP' than any other party.

 

[lem34]

I am of the opinion that the Indian constitution is secular. However so far to a great extent the implementation has been a relative failure

 

[Bang Galore]

I never understand what some guys here are attempting when they question whether our secularism is an "illusion" or not. We Indians are not unaware of our flaws. Our adherence to secularism too will be flawed because we ourselves are. The key here is whether there is something inherent in the constitution itself that makes it flawed or whether the individuals are responsible because of their shortcomings. Almost all points raised are on individual shortcomings & never on the constitution itself. Individuals & individual attitudes can & will change with the passage of time. The constitution will remain sacrosanct. People may fail the constitution, the constitution itself does not fail the people.

The main point worth noting is how many Indians come riding in defence of "secularism" whoever flawed & illusory others may think it to be. That is the beauty of India, we have our hearts in the right place even if we solely lack in spadework necessary to back up our heart. However slow, we will eventually get close; those in proudly non-secular states can never hope to match that ( not that they particularly care). This insistence on pointing out flaws only reinforces that even in their view, secularism is a higher model .

 

[harpoon]

I am of the opinion that the Indian constitution is secular. However so far to a great extent the implementation has been a relative failure

So we got the basics right, which is also the most difficult right. As for the 2nd part we are reaching there, after all we are an old country but a young secular democracy.

 

[rashtriya.rifles]

I never understand what some guys here are attempting when they question whether our secularism is an "illusion" or not. We Indians are not unaware of our flaws. Our adherence to secularism too will be flawed because we ourselves are. The key here is whether there is something inherent in the constitution itself that makes it flawed or whether the individuals are responsible because of their shortcomings. Almost all points raised are on individual shortcomings & never on the constitution itself. Individuals & individual attitudes can & will change with the passage of time. The constitution will remain sacrosanct. People may fail the constitution, the constitution itself does not fail the people.

The main point worth noting is how many Indians come riding in defence of "secularism" whoever flawed & illusory others may think it to be. That is the beauty of India, we have our hearts in the right place even if we solely lack in spadework necessary to back up our heart. However slow, we will eventually get close; those in proudly non-secular states can never hope to match that ( not that they particularly care). This insistence on pointing out flaws only reinforces that even in their view, secularism is a higher model .

truer words were never said

 

[notsuperstitious]

I am of the opinion that the Indian constitution is secular. However so far to a great extent the implementation has been a relative failure

If its relative, then its a relative success (compared to other young poor diverse underdeveloped countries). In absolute terms our failures are many.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Telling me secularism is a myth in a nation where the PM is a Sikh, the Vice Pres is a Muslim (the ex Pres is a Muslim) the head of the ruling party is a Roman Catholic in a nation of majority Hindus seems like through and through BS to me.


On a smaller level let me give an example of when I went to Mumbai last year- I stated in a hotel where the the co-owners were Muslim and Sikh, the manager was Jewish and the majority of the staff were Hindus and Christians with nothing made of this at all by any of those involved.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Let me put it this way:

It's no surprise India has such insurgency issues, the sheer diversity is a major reason. An easy way to describe today’s India would be by comparison to the European Union (EU). If the EU is able to achieve greater integration through a single currency, similarity in legal and administrative structures, unified security and foreign affairs management, and a sense of patriotic loyalty to the Union among the citizens of member nations, then it will closely resemble India. The Indian constitution recognizes 23 official languages3 while the EU has 20 official languages.The official figure of “mother tongues” spoken in India is 1,683, of which an estimated 850 are in daily use. The SIL Ethnologue lists 387 living languages for India. The social, cultural, religious and ethnic diversity of India surpasses that of the EU.

What is surprising and impressive is India's success against these insurgencies and success in integrating and harmonising the nation.


India celebrates its diversity- if you had actually ever been you'd see what nonsene this article was.

 

[rubyjackass]

It is true that opposite of word 'secular' is 'communal' in India, and mostly used to beat 'BJP' than any other party.

BJP earns the 'communal' tag on its own merit. Because it is communal, BJP is not secular. Only naive people think BJP is not communal. How can you explain Babri otherwise? I am just saying BJP gets rightly beat by the word. People like Rajiv Gandhi deserve the word as well(See: Shah Bano case). But at least he is dead and cannot do any more damage.