Second Hand F-16's for PAF

[batmannow]

But they are also easier and quicker to integrate and will provide(as they have) an immediate boost to the capability of the PAF.
The whole point being, the F-16's provide a jump in the capability baseline for the PAF ASAP.
After which, the capability can then be taken up from that baseline.
So they wont represent the best that the PAF will have.. rather the least it can have.

rather the least it can have.
its not the requirment now adays for PAF, & PAF needs to move ahead with real targets in mind which really can boost its action force for any situation it can predict!
as J-10 J-F17s as thier main mainframe fighters for the nearest future, they can go for modifyied version of SU-30mkk from china which is called J-16s 2 sqdrns of them , still 10 times better thn these F-16s?

 

[fatman17]

rather the least it can have.
its not the requirment now adays for PAF, & PAF needs to move ahead with real targets in mind which really can boost its action force for any situation it can predict!
as J-10 J-F17s as thier main mainframe fighters for the nearest future, they can go for modifyied version of SU-30mkk from china which is called J-16s 2 sqdrns of them , still 10 times better thn these F-16s?

batman - any chinese platform, J10, J16 etc, as long as they are powered by russian engines will not be sold to pakistan. please keep that in mind. there is no agreement between russia and china to re-export these engines to a 3rd country. we will only get them once the chinese engines has proven reliability.....till then its F16's only.

 

[batmannow]

batman - any chinese platform, J10, J16 etc, as long as they are powered by russian engines will not be sold to pakistan. please keep that in mind. there is no agreement between russia and china to re-export these engines to a 3rd country. we will only get them once the chinese engines has proven reliability.....till then its F16's only.

with due respect sir!
are you announcing that, what ever been said by a former PAF chief was a lie about FC-20 & thunders inductation in paf?
& pakistan never can get FC-20?
JF-thunders birds they going to be vannished soon just because of engines?
how many hundered years , we should wait to see chinese engines proving thier reliability?
how many times , we hve to buy only F-16s even our big brother , still not supply its spares to us, which was proven at the time of kargill?
so all you mean is F-16 is been made for PAF for the comming 1000 years to come?

sorry even as you had tried put it as a reason but again the reality is F-16s are the badest history of PAF after kargill, & no one can change it!


in that case,the best option PAF should hve is to enhence its long range SAM capablities, rather going for the dam falcons!

 

[Last Hope]

with due respect sir!
are you announcing that, what ever been said by a former PAF chief was a lie about FC-20 & thunders inductation in paf?
& pakistan never can get FC-20?
JF-thunders birds they going to be vannished soon just because of engines?
how many hundered years , we should wait to see chinese engines proving thier reliability?
how many times , we hve to buy only F-16s even our big brother , still not supply its spares to us, which was proven at the time of kargill?
so all you mean is F-16 is been made for PAF for the comming 1000 years to come?

sorry even as you had tried put it as a reason but again the reality is F-16s are the badest history of PAF after kargill, & no one can change it!


in that case,the best option PAF should hve is to enhence its long range SAM capablities, rather going for the dam falcons!

The J-10Bs that PAF will receive shall be powered by Chinese WS-10A engines. However, the Chinese engines are not mature enough and their output is good, but not satisfactory.

 

[batmannow]

The J-10Bs that PAF will receive shall be powered by Chinese WS-10A engines. However, the Chinese engines are not mature enough and their output is good, but not satisfactory.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/chinese-defence/188001-plaaf-j-10b-ready-enter-service-soon-3.html
sir you need to check some posts of last page, of this thread!

 

[batmannow]

The J-10Bs that PAF will receive shall be powered by Chinese WS-10A engines. However, the Chinese engines are not mature enough and their output is good, but not satisfactory.

& dear sir!
you are creating a big confusion here!
if chinese engines arent matured enough, thn why the hell PAF will recive these birds?
& how can you rate these engines out put good , & not satsfactory at the same time?

 

[Last Hope]

& dear sir!
you are creating a big confusion here!
if chinese engines arent matured enough, thn why the hell PAF will recive these birds?
& how can you rate these engines out put good , & not satsfactory at the same time?

Let's put it this way, if an aircraft required 70% output, and F-16 gives 95% output, the WS-10 gives 80%. It is good (above 70%), yet not good enough. And last I knew, WS-10 was facing some problems with output.

I hope you're getting the picture here.

 

[batmannow]

Let's put it this way, if an aircraft required 70% output, and F-16 gives 95% output, the WS-10 gives 80%. It is good (above 70%), yet not good enough. And last I knew, WS-10 was facing some problems with output.

I hope you're getting the picture here.

so that means, you are anouncing it on behalf of PAF, that FC-20s & JF-17s are on halt ?
& F-16s are the only option we hve even after investing so heavly on thunders?
its not about percentages, are the chinese still are flying J-10A as a sqrdrn in thier space?
& J-10A arent are the more reliable platforms, if it comes to supplies?

 

[Slayer786]

Well I am not sure that anyone had read this info yet. If not this will help a bit.


$5.1B Proposed in Sales, Upgrades, Weapons for Pakistan’s F-16s
Apr 04, 2012 14:43 EDT

Related Stories: Alliances, Americas - USA, Asia - Central, Asia - India, Avionics, BAE, Boeing, Bombs - General, Bombs - Smart, Contracts - Awards, Contracts - Intent, ECM, Fighters & Attack, Issues - International, Issues - Political, Lockheed Martin, Missiles - Air-Air, Northrop-Grumman, Other Corporation, Radars, Raytheon, Sensors & Guidance, Spotlight articles, Support & Maintenance, Support Functions - Other, United Technologies
This free article is a sample taken from our database of 300+ detailed analyses of defense programs and contracting trends. To see what you have been missing, check our list of Focus and Spotlight articles.


Latest updates: Final delivery of new F-16s; AIDEWS electronic warfare pods.

PAF F-16A drops Mk.82s
(click to view full)
On June 28/06, the US DSCA notified Congress via a series of releases of its intention to provide Pakistan with a $5.1 billion Foreign Military Sales package to upgrade the F-16s that serve as the PAF’s top of the line fighters. Some of these items had been put on hold following the October 2005 earthquake in Pakistan & Kashmir, but the request for 36 new F-16 Block 50/52s is now going ahead, along with new weapons, engine modifications, and upgrade kits for Pakistan’s older F-16 A/Bs. The buy went through, and was accompanied by the supply of 26 older F-16s from USAF surplus stocks.

These items are detailed below, along with controversies the proposed sales have created, and some of the conditions attached to the sale by the US government:

Item 1: 36 New F-16 Block 50/52s – $3 billion
Item 2: Weapons for the New F-16s – $650 Million
Item 3: F-16A/B Mid-Life Update Modification Kits – $1.3 billion
Item 4: F-16A/B Engine Modifications & UP/STAR – $151 Million
Deal Updates and Progress [updated]
Potential Controversies (July 2006)

Nov 16/09: Engines. Pratt & Whitney announces that they have delivered the first F100-PW-229 Engine Enhancement Package (EEP) engine to Pakistan, for installation in their F-16 Block 52 aircraft. The engine program is valued at approximately $150 million, and is scheduled for delivery in 2009 and 2010.

The F100-PW-229 EEP is the latest evolution of the F100 engine family, with features designed to reduce scheduled engine maintenance by up to 30%, by extending the depot inspection interval from 4300 – 6000 TACs.

Oct 13/09: Unveiling. Lockheed Martin unveils the first of 18 new PAF F-16s in ceremonies at its Fort Worth, TX facility. Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Chief of Staff Air Chief Marshal Rao Quamar Suleman accepted the F-16D Block 52 aircraft on behalf of his nation, as the first delivery of the “Peace Drive I” order. It will be delivered to the US government for transfer in December 2009, with the remainder of the order following in 2010. See also Flight International , which has video.

July 29/08: Pakistan’s request to transfer 2/3 of its anti-terrorism aid to fund its F-16 program meets strong resistance from the US Congress.

June 28/08: Used F-16s. In a ceremony at Mushaf Air Base in Pakistan, Acting Commander of US Central Command, Lt. Gen. Martin E. Dempsey, hands over 4 “excess defense article” F-16 fighter from the USAF to Pakistan Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed. The US DSCA release says that:

“F-16s continue to hold a special place in the U.S. – Pakistani security relationship. The four EDA aircraft are part of a larger package of 14 aircraft. With the most recent delivery, the USAF has transferred eight aircraft to Pakistan. Another four EDA F-16 aircraft are scheduled to arrive in Pakistan on 28 July 2008. The final two aircraft are part of the Pakistan Mid-Life Update program and will arrive in Pakistan in De*cember 2011. The entire F-16 program for Pakistan includes the purchase of eighteen F-16C/D Block 52 aircraft, MLU for 46 aircraft, and a munitions package that includes AM*RAAM, JDAM, and Enhanced Paveway guidance kits.”

July 30/11: J-10s. The PAF will be flying a squadron of Chinese J-10B fighters alongside its F-16s, as a gift from China. The official offer was reportedly presented to the Pakistan Army’s Chief of General Staff, Lt. Gen. Waheed Arshad, during a week-long visit to Beijing.

The Chinese have also pledged 50 co-developed JF-17 Thunder fighters in recent months, but the J-10Bs are different because they offer total performance on par with, or even superior to, the PAF’s new F-16C/D Block 52 fighter standard. Pakistan Kakhuda Hafiz | Economic Times of India | Defense Update | DefenseWorld .

July 29/11: Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Co. in Fort Worth, TX receives a $42.3 million firm-fixed-price and cost-plus-fixed-fee contract for 10 additional Pakistan F-16 A/B Block 15 Aircraft Enhanced Modernization Program kits. The ASC/WWMK at Wright-Patterson AFB, OH manages the contract on behalf of its foreign Military Sale client (FA8615-07-C-6032, PO 0038).

July 26/11: Fragile alliance. At the US House Foreign Affairs Committee’s hearings on “Reassessing American Grand Strategy in South Asia ,” John J. Tkacik, the U.S. Department of State Bureau of Intelligence and Research’s Former Chief of China Analysis, submits “The Enemy of Hegemony is My Friend: Pakistan’s de facto ‘Alliance’ with China ” [PDF]. Key excerpt:

“China has always been Pakistan’s most important strategic ally,2 and the intensity of Pakistan’s relationship with the United States has always been a subset of Pakistan’s all-consuming strategic calculus about India…. For the United States to achieve a true strategic partnership with Pakistan, it must share Pakistan’s posture toward India. It follows, then, that subduing India also demands acquiescing in China’s ultimate hegemony in Asia. In reassessing America’s grand strategy in South Asia, the United States must first reassess its global “grand strategy.” If America can live with an Asia under Chinese hegemony, and with a crippled India, then America can have Pakistan’s enthusiastic partnership against the Taliban. Decisions like this are, as they say, above my pay grade.”


Source:© 2004-2012 Defense Industry Daily, LLC in association with Watershed Publishing | Images on this site | Privacy Policy

 

[Last Hope]

so that means, you are anouncing it on behalf of PAF, that FC-20s & JF-17s are on halt ?
& F-16s are the only option we hve even after investing so heavly on thunders?
its not about percentages, are the chinese still are flying J-10A as a sqrdrn in thier space?
& J-10A arent are the more reliable platforms, if it comes to supplies?

You still don't get it.

And JF-17 uses RUSSIAN engines. Pakistan has a large supply of RD-93 which is RUSSIAN. And these engines provide good output, but not satisfying enough, hence RD-33 was changed to RD-93 and in Block-2 RD-93 would be used with a few changes to provide better output.

 

[fatman17]

Well I am not sure that anyone had read this info yet. If not this will help a bit.


$5.1B Proposed in Sales, Upgrades, Weapons for Pakistan’s F-16s
Apr 04, 2012 14:43 EDT

Related Stories: Alliances, Americas - USA, Asia - Central, Asia - India, Avionics, BAE, Boeing, Bombs - General, Bombs - Smart, Contracts - Awards, Contracts - Intent, ECM, Fighters & Attack, Issues - International, Issues - Political, Lockheed Martin, Missiles - Air-Air, Northrop-Grumman, Other Corporation, Radars, Raytheon, Sensors & Guidance, Spotlight articles, Support & Maintenance, Support Functions - Other, United Technologies
This free article is a sample taken from our database of 300+ detailed analyses of defense programs and contracting trends. To see what you have been missing, check our list of Focus and Spotlight articles.


Latest updates: Final delivery of new F-16s; AIDEWS electronic warfare pods.

PAF F-16A drops Mk.82s
(click to view full)
On June 28/06, the US DSCA notified Congress via a series of releases of its intention to provide Pakistan with a $5.1 billion Foreign Military Sales package to upgrade the F-16s that serve as the PAF’s top of the line fighters. Some of these items had been put on hold following the October 2005 earthquake in Pakistan & Kashmir, but the request for 36 new F-16 Block 50/52s is now going ahead, along with new weapons, engine modifications, and upgrade kits for Pakistan’s older F-16 A/Bs. The buy went through, and was accompanied by the supply of 26 older F-16s from USAF surplus stocks.

These items are detailed below, along with controversies the proposed sales have created, and some of the conditions attached to the sale by the US government:

Item 1: 36 New F-16 Block 50/52s – $3 billion
Item 2: Weapons for the New F-16s – $650 Million
Item 3: F-16A/B Mid-Life Update Modification Kits – $1.3 billion
Item 4: F-16A/B Engine Modifications & UP/STAR – $151 Million
Deal Updates and Progress [updated]
Potential Controversies (July 2006)

Nov 16/09: Engines. Pratt & Whitney announces that they have delivered the first F100-PW-229 Engine Enhancement Package (EEP) engine to Pakistan, for installation in their F-16 Block 52 aircraft. The engine program is valued at approximately $150 million, and is scheduled for delivery in 2009 and 2010.

The F100-PW-229 EEP is the latest evolution of the F100 engine family, with features designed to reduce scheduled engine maintenance by up to 30%, by extending the depot inspection interval from 4300 – 6000 TACs.

Oct 13/09: Unveiling. Lockheed Martin unveils the first of 18 new PAF F-16s in ceremonies at its Fort Worth, TX facility. Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Chief of Staff Air Chief Marshal Rao Quamar Suleman accepted the F-16D Block 52 aircraft on behalf of his nation, as the first delivery of the “Peace Drive I” order. It will be delivered to the US government for transfer in December 2009, with the remainder of the order following in 2010. See also Flight International , which has video.

July 29/08: Pakistan’s request to transfer 2/3 of its anti-terrorism aid to fund its F-16 program meets strong resistance from the US Congress.

June 28/08: Used F-16s. In a ceremony at Mushaf Air Base in Pakistan, Acting Commander of US Central Command, Lt. Gen. Martin E. Dempsey, hands over 4 “excess defense article” F-16 fighter from the USAF to Pakistan Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed. The US DSCA release says that:

“F-16s continue to hold a special place in the U.S. – Pakistani security relationship. The four EDA aircraft are part of a larger package of 14 aircraft. With the most recent delivery, the USAF has transferred eight aircraft to Pakistan. Another four EDA F-16 aircraft are scheduled to arrive in Pakistan on 28 July 2008. The final two aircraft are part of the Pakistan Mid-Life Update program and will arrive in Pakistan in De*cember 2011. The entire F-16 program for Pakistan includes the purchase of eighteen F-16C/D Block 52 aircraft, MLU for 46 aircraft, and a munitions package that includes AM*RAAM, JDAM, and Enhanced Paveway guidance kits.”

July 30/11: J-10s. The PAF will be flying a squadron of Chinese J-10B fighters alongside its F-16s, as a gift from China. The official offer was reportedly presented to the Pakistan Army’s Chief of General Staff, Lt. Gen. Waheed Arshad, during a week-long visit to Beijing.

The Chinese have also pledged 50 co-developed JF-17 Thunder fighters in recent months, but the J-10Bs are different because they offer total performance on par with, or even superior to, the PAF’s new F-16C/D Block 52 fighter standard. Pakistan Kakhuda Hafiz | Economic Times of India | Defense Update | DefenseWorld .

July 29/11: Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Co. in Fort Worth, TX receives a $42.3 million firm-fixed-price and cost-plus-fixed-fee contract for 10 additional Pakistan F-16 A/B Block 15 Aircraft Enhanced Modernization Program kits. The ASC/WWMK at Wright-Patterson AFB, OH manages the contract on behalf of its foreign Military Sale client (FA8615-07-C-6032, PO 0038).

July 26/11: Fragile alliance. At the US House Foreign Affairs Committee’s hearings on “Reassessing American Grand Strategy in South Asia ,” John J. Tkacik, the U.S. Department of State Bureau of Intelligence and Research’s Former Chief of China Analysis, submits “The Enemy of Hegemony is My Friend: Pakistan’s de facto ‘Alliance’ with China ” [PDF]. Key excerpt:

“China has always been Pakistan’s most important strategic ally,2 and the intensity of Pakistan’s relationship with the United States has always been a subset of Pakistan’s all-consuming strategic calculus about India…. For the United States to achieve a true strategic partnership with Pakistan, it must share Pakistan’s posture toward India. It follows, then, that subduing India also demands acquiescing in China’s ultimate hegemony in Asia. In reassessing America’s grand strategy in South Asia, the United States must first reassess its global “grand strategy.” If America can live with an Asia under Chinese hegemony, and with a crippled India, then America can have Pakistan’s enthusiastic partnership against the Taliban. Decisions like this are, as they say, above my pay grade.”


Source:© 2004-2012 Defense Industry Daily, LLC in association with Watershed Publishing | Images on this site | Privacy Policy

old hat mate!

with due respect sir!
are you announcing that, what ever been said by a former PAF chief was a lie about FC-20 & thunders inductation in paf?
& pakistan never can get FC-20?
JF-thunders birds they going to be vannished soon just because of engines?
how many hundered years , we should wait to see chinese engines proving thier reliability?
how many times , we hve to buy only F-16s even our big brother , still not supply its spares to us, which was proven at the time of kargill?
so all you mean is F-16 is been made for PAF for the comming 1000 years to come?

sorry even as you had tried put it as a reason but again the reality is F-16s are the badest history of PAF after kargill, & no one can change it!


in that case,the best option PAF should hve is to enhence its long range SAM capablities, rather going for the dam falcons!

suggest u read my post again - thanks!

 

[MilSpec]

How is it that United states has unilaterally attacked sovereign territory pakistan; Bombed its territory 254 times; killed thousands of pakistani citizens; made a mockery out of pakistans constitution, and still the policy makers of pakistan; senior members, think tanks and knowledgeable contributors here alike are still willing to buy military hardware from US.

I read quite a few threads on condemning drone attacks and outrage over salala attacks, and it seems every thing between the two is fine for a few F16's.

Does anyone see how easy it is to appease the military of pakistan,and what kind of image is created in world where an ally can bomb the other at will and make up with some combat aircrafts.

How is it that none of the big guys at pdf don't even blink before endorsing f16's??

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

How is it that United states has unilaterally attacked sovereign territory pakistan; Bombed its territory 254 times; killed thousands of pakistani citizens; made a mockery out of pakistans constitution, and still the policy makers of pakistan; senior members, think tanks and knowledgeable contributors here alike are still willing to buy military hardware from US.

I read quite a few threads on condemning drone attacks and outrage over salala attacks, and it seems every thing between the two is fine for a few F16's.

Does anyone see how easy it is to appease the military of pakistan,and what kind of image is created in world where an ally can bomb the other at will and make up with some combat aircrafts.

How is it that none of the big guys at pdf don't even blink before endorsing f16's??

that is called an act of war
& as far as the drones attacks are concerned they happen only because our leadership gives them permission

 

[SBD-3]

You still don't get it.

And JF-17 uses RUSSIAN engines. Pakistan has a large supply of RD-93 which is RUSSIAN. And these engines provide good output, but not satisfying enough, hence RD-33 was changed to RD-93 and in Block-2 RD-93 would be used with a few changes to provide better output.

That would effectively depend upon how much weight is put up on JFT II. And to be honest, with increased loads being tested on FC1-06. I feel the airframe would be made sterdy enough to carry additional weapons load (if need). I dont think there would be any significant increase in base weight since the design changes are minimal

 

[MilSpec]

that is called an act of war
& as far as the drones attacks are concerned they happen only because our leadership gives them permission

So "permissions" supersedes the constitution of pakistan?