Saudi Women Driving issue

[SQ8]

It does as far as Saudi Arabia and its influence in other parts of the world in particular the Indo-Pak sub-continent is concerned. I'm talking about before Najdiyat was born.

The Wahabi movement is fairly recently - give or take 300 years as originated by Muhammad Bin Abdul Wahab. We have to look into what inspired Ibn-e-Abdul Wahab and the entire Salafi movement and you'll find that their beliefs originate from Islamic literature itself albeit against a hardline intrepretation and selective assessment.

There are many alleged hadiths that would be deemed unfair and contradictory to the rights of women as we learn from other aspects of hadiths and the Quran itself.

Plus, I haven't seen evidence that any other Islamic sect lends fair rights to women either? granted that salafi/najdi works take it to the extreme.

Abdul wahab has had very little inspiration to begin..
his inspiration came from molding the laws to the wishes of his supporters...the house of Saud.
Who were.. for all their glory.. still basic bandits..


Depends if you want to have a sect if at all...
What is your definition of fair .. and where is it unfair so I may elaborate.

 

[muse]

There are many alleged hadiths that would be deemed unfair and contradictory to the rights of women as we learn from other aspects of hadiths and the Quran itself.

Note that these hadith appeared and were accepted or not, through time and space -- and think about the question of the nature of knowledge - the Hadith and their acceptance or not, reflects the knowledge (and attitudes) of the past and of the era in which these were submitted -- note that these deal with problems in specific times and societies, what does that suggest about the nature of knowledge??

Some of us seem not to understand that hadith are creations in the sense of solution to problems specific in time and space and geography - and lets recall that so honored a sage as Shah Waliulllah Dehlvi in his Hojatullah Al- Balagha, cautions us to not confuse Islam with the culture of a specific society in a specific time and a specific geography

 

[Infiltrator]

Allow me to deal with the parts I have bolded:

OK, but again, questions -- Can we know right and Wrong without reference to Quran? Is there really a role for Reason for the religious faithful? see, the Asharite position was that Murder, for instance, is Murder, if Quran says it is - that is how the radicals have created positions wherein they justify the murder of others, ideas such as the entirely contemptible"Wajib ul Qatl" -- Worthy of Murder or Killing - - there is of course an opposing point of view, The Muttazalite position which is focused on Reason as a tool to discern right from wrong.

I see. So these many schools of Islam like Asharite can be used by certain groups to justify their actions even when other schools like Muttazalite would reject these actions depending if they were considered right or wrong through reason. Are these schools separate from the branches of Islam like Sunni and Shia? Or are they smaller ideas/beliefs that exist within branches like Sunni and Shia?

Simply adding "Islamic" to a term or concept does not give it legitimacy, certainly not to those who have an interest in studying these -- Does "Justice" really become something else if we add a Islamic or Judaic or Christian or Secular before it?? The laws and precedents may be different and the quality of "Justice" different - is the concept "Justice" therefore different? Certainly not, it's the quality(ies) of that Justice that may be different. That is part of the reason I am suggesting that such ideas as "Justice" exist outside Quran, some may seek ownership or trademarking of it by adding their choice of religion to the concept.

I agree with your ideas about the use of the word "Islamic" and the fact that the concept of Justice exists outside these religious-charged terms like Islamic, Judaic, Christian. Unfortunately, like you mentioned, many groups of people believe their ideas or views are given legitimacy through these terms. Members of movements like Wahhabi and radical militant groups like Al-Qaeda would be key examples of this.

Quran and the nature of knowledge - Does Quran say it is a continuation of Guidance in it's final form? Yes, it does, it claims a relationship through time and space with the religious texts of Jews And Christians - and this in interpreted as meaning that knowledge changes and evolves. But wait, what about that final part, doesn't that mean that the position I am taking is incorrect? after all if the nature of knowledge is that it changes and evolves and the Quran suggests that is then how come such knowledge is to stop after the Quran?? is this not a correct way to read this?

There are any number of interpretations that any number of differently "trained" will be persuaded by, but to deal with the specific question above, allow me to suggest that this is best understood as a exclusivist claim - After all, with out an exclusivist claim, what religion can claim "the truth". To the "faithful" the claim of "The truth" is in their experience - but all religious adherents are not among the "faithful" and their "religiosity" is of a different substance ( for a more substantive discussion - See Types of Religiosity by A. Soroush)

Okay, I see what your saying. Knowledge does change and evolve according to the Quran. So this would mean that beliefs and concepts like gender equality change as well. Also, I understand your point about the exclusivist claim and it's relation to how knowledge would "stop" after the Quran. It's a logical interpretation.

 

[muse]

Are these schools separate from the branches of Islam like Sunni and Shia? Or are they smaller ideas/beliefs that exist within branches like Sunni and Shia?

The Muttazalite school is non-existent today --- though more Shi'ah scholars borrow from it than do Sunni Scholars. But these are not the universe of scholars, they are more and more trained in a multiplicity of disciplines, including borrowing from Western Christian thinkers, such as Han Georg Gadamer as well as scholars of the Frankfurt school - so this is a complex and evolving universe and while it seems that we are divergent, it is not the totality.

However, with that said, the world of Sunni thought is a desert and when it's not a desert, it's scary - Blame the Saudi for this - how did they do that? Look at who the major publishers of Muslim scholars are -- and of course your research may also open to you, who own these and how they came to own them.

I do want you to note the contribution to this conversation of the so called islam slogan mongers on this forum - and do consider what that may mean -- perhaps we have had enough of Islam slonganeers

 

[Secular Revolution]

Some of us seem not to understand that hadith are creations in the sense of solution to problems specific in time and space and geography

Good point and the same also holds true for parts of Quran and its "age-old" interpretations.

It appears simple to you and I and but the mullah curriculum has failed to take this consideration into account when deriving laws pertaining to the present times and hence we still persist to work to standards prevailent 1400 years ago.

It is no surprise thus that an Islamic state is merely thus a theoretical concept nowdays as are many other matters of Islamic jurisprudence.

 

[muse]

Of course you, like so many others realize that Sunni Islam has no priesthood - but we really do have a priesthood in most Muslim countries - so I look for emancipation from Mullahs when Quran is more and more published in the language of the peoples of the country and it is read more and more, first as a book - not to become Hafiz, not to put it away in some high place collecting dust, but as a book - big things can have small beginnings.

 

[Secular Revolution]

Abdul wahab has had very little inspiration to begin..
his inspiration came from molding the laws to the wishes of his supporters...the house of Saud.
Who were.. for all their glory.. still basic bandits..

Depends if you want to have a sect if at all...
What is your definition of fair .. and where is it unfair so I may elaborate.

Poor Abdul Wahab gets the stick for the actions of his son when he himself was a pious man. I think you meant to write Muhammad Bin Abdul Wahab. Abdul Wahab was his father and his other son Sulaiman Bin Abdul Wahab were both of the orthodox views and ferociously rejected the idealogies of Ibn-e-Abdul Wahab.

Ibn-e-Abdul Wahab had Ibn-e-Taimiyah's views as his inspiration and in turn Saud was inspired by him. Yes the carnege that the duo caused is one of the greatest tipping points in Islamic history.

The point of fairness is that if you find three groups A, B, C with the same trait then you cannot just pick A and lament all blame upon A. The rest are equally guilty as far as this matter is concerned.

 

[Infiltrator]

The Muttazalite school is non-existent today --- though more Shi'ah scholars borrow from it than do Sunni Scholars. But these are not the universe of scholars, they are more and more trained in a multiplicity of disciplines, including borrowing from Western Christian thinkers, such as Han Georg Gadamer as well as scholars of the Frankfurt school - so this is a complex and evolving universe and while it seems that we are divergent, it is not the totality.

Yes, when I researched Muttazalite, I found out that it flourished centuries ago but also that some of it's beliefs are still looked at or "borrowed" from even today as you claimed.

However, with that said, the world of Sunni thought is a desert and when it's not a desert, it's scary - Blame the Saudi for this - how did they do that? Look at who the major publishers of Muslim scholars are -- and of course your research may also open to you, who own these and how they came to own them.

I do want you to note the contribution to this conversation of the so called islam slogan mongers on this forum - and do consider what that may mean -- perhaps we have had enough of Islam slonganeers

Really? I'm not that well versed on the Sunni sect but why would you describe it a a desert and something "scary" when it's not a desert. Are it's thoughts and beliefs that vast, overwhelming, etc?

From my research on the Sunni sect, the word Sunni is a term derived from the Arabic word Sunnah which means "habit", "usual practice", "well-trodden path" or "tradition." So it's interesting you would describe it as a desert when the desert is the last thing I would think of when hearing a word who's origins are from a word meaning well-trodden path or tradition. Perhaps the etymology of the word Sunni has little to do with the teachings of the sect and I'm just caught up with that.

In regards to the "sloganeers", I try to consider every statement made on this forum whether it's repetitive, immature or insulting. So in that sense, "I do consider what they mean."

 

[silko]

even women in north-korea can drive freely around the country!

 

[SQ8]

Poor Abdul Wahab gets the stick for the actions of his son when he himself was a pious man. I think you meant to write Muhammad Bin Abdul Wahab. Abdul Wahab was his father and his other son Sulaiman Bin Abdul Wahab were both of the orthodox views and ferociously rejected the idealogies of Ibn-e-Abdul Wahab.

Ibn-e-Abdul Wahab had Ibn-e-Taimiyah's views as his inspiration and in turn Saud was inspired by him. Yes the carnege that the duo caused is one of the greatest tipping points in Islamic history.

The point of fairness is that if you find three groups A, B, C with the same trait then you cannot just pick A and lament all blame upon A. The rest are equally guilty as far as this matter is concerned.

correct..woes of the posts made in the office.
However.. whereas Ibn-tamiyah was still within the orthodox (if there can be a term as such for islam).. Mohammad bin Abdul went berserk..
The best way to judge is to see if the B,C and D are still subsets of an original A or have they elements that lie outside of A.

 

[Mo12]

Should we let this be Saudi problem, or should we all get involved to fight for they rights?

 

[Secular Revolution]

Should we let this be Saudi problem, or should we all get involved to fight for they rights?

LOL - good question.

Well I note you are Indian but as a Pakistani I would say, we've got our own share of problems to deal with than to worry about others. Besides if Mullahism spreads the way it is going in Pakistan - we would have young girls scared of leaving their house to go to school, college or university much less driving.

This issue becomes very relevant to the rest of us when foreign observers label Saudi laws to be representative of Muslims or Islam in general which is far from being the case.

 

[harpoon]

even women in north-korea can drive freely around the country!

Equality of genders is one of the cornerstones of Communism.

 

[harpoon]

i have said it before to, the only reason saudi-arabia is important in the muslim world is because of mecca and medina, if they didn't had controll of them they would mean nothing to the musli mworld!

The Muslim world should come together and take control of the Mecca & Medina from KSA. No country should have exclusive rights over a place which more than a billion people around the world considers sacred.

I'm not a Muslim, but I understand the significance of Haj. Everytime when hears news that KSA cut quota for pilgrims to Mecca, I ask myself what right does an individual government have to decide who should visit the sacred place just because they have the control of it.

 

[fallstuff]

They are just controlling behind a religious veil. Not letting them drive and require to be with someone when outside of the house are just ways to control their behavior. An oppressive and draconian attempt to keep the women 'pure' which has no religious basis.

There are plenty of examples of women fighting in early Islamic period in Arabia.