Saudi Arabia still offers lot of opportunities for Indians

[Gufi]

Also the people that follow the government blindly. Most do because this has been installed in them. If you speak out too much you will get in jail. If you do this and that the Mutawa will come after you. Many people live in a paranoia state without knowing it. That's not healthy for the society.

Jeddah is much better in terms of accepting change. I think many people there are pro women rights it just is a matter of time. I will predict that change will come but my belief is that change needs to be slow to be accepted and implemented. I think with the new public transport system the Saudis want to reduce cars on the street and then introduce female driving license. But for that the system needs to be adapted with laws to be changed and in my opinion there is work going on in regards to this. The driving of females in most compounds and in some universities is a start i guess.

 

[al-Hasani]

Jeddah is much better in terms of accepting change. I think many people there are pro women rights it just is a matter of time. I will predict that change will come but my belief is that change needs to be slow to be accepted and implemented. I think with the new public transport system the Saudis want to reduce cars on the street and then introduce female driving license. But for that the system needs to be adapted with laws to be changed and in my opinion there is work going on in regards to this. The driving of females in most compounds and in some universities is a start i guess.

Well, most of Hijaz and many other regions are. Even Najd have many reformists and times have changed. Let a fellow compatriot that have lived in KSA for ages explain it to you. @somebozo No, he is neither pro-Arab nor anti-Arab. He will confirm this.

I tell you this now. Most women obviously are against this nonsense law and most men too. Especially the current generation. The clergy (which are the ones with all the influence on this field) are the ones that are against it by large. As such laws could result in further changes in the society that they are no fans of as their influence would then diminish.

 

[Halimi]

Conservatism can be principled and deep, or it can be reactionary and shallow. Unfortunately, in much of the Muslim World, it is very often the latter.

The scholars need to return to the dynamism of Islamic jurisprudence and bring an intellectual depth back to it. That does not have to be in contradiction to the Salafi ethic, which itself is a school of reform and re-analysis in light of the earliest principles and generations of Islam who were, in many ways, less 'rigid' than many Muslims today. For instance many of the modern restrictions on women today simply have no basis in the earliest practice of Islam, when many women worked and some played very active socio-political and educational roles, including our mother Aa'isha, may Allah be pleased with her, and thousands of female Hadith and Fiqh scholars.

But it needs courage and initiative.

 

[al-Hasani]

Conservatism can be principled and deep, or it can be reactionary and shallow. Unfortunately, in much of the Muslim World, it is very often the latter.

The scholars need to return to the dynamism of Islamic jurisprudence and bring an intellectual depth back to it. That does not have to be in contradiction to the Salafi ethic, which itself is a school of reform and re-analysis in light of the earliest principles and generations of Islam who were, in many ways, less 'rigid' than many Muslims today. For instance many of the modern restrictions on women today simply have no basis in the earliest practice of Islam, when many women worked and some played very active socio-political and educational roles, including our mother Aa'isha, may Allah be pleased with her, and thousands of female Hadith and Fiqh scholars.

But it needs courage and initiative.

Very well put my Lebanese brother. The Arab Muslim world was at the helm of the Caliphate for 1000 years and during the height of the Islamic Golden Age science, art, architecture, poetry, intellectual discourses, deep Islamic studies, wealth, stability etc. were at their highest.

It just goes to show that once a society or region regresses such values disappear even if they have a Islamic or even pre-Islamic precedence.

My "solution" or at least thoughts about this topic in the context of KSA at least I have dealt with in post 13 in this very thread.

There is obviously much more to tell but Allah (swt) knows best.

Funny, that this news pops up.

Shoura Council ‘open to discuss women’s driving’ | Arab News

 

[Ahmed Jo]

Apologies for the late reply. The books were calling.

Well the UAE Is great and all but should also move towards a even more inclusive system. Real parliament and a constitutional monarchy. That's the way forward on the long run.

Yet I have also heard people (even people of ME backgrounds in the West) telling me that democracy is a failed project in that part of the world. I sometimes feel that they are partially right but on the other hand Western Europe faced even much more oppressive dictators once but came out stronger.

I can assure you that my views on nationality, Arab and Muslim cooperation (although not blind), cooperation, value of ancient culture, traditions, heritage, yet also a modern viewpoint and all the other things I have spoken about is popular and gaining more popularity for each day. In fact I would say that the vast majority agree but they are afraid to question the establishment because we know what happens if you criticize those in power in the ME. Some way you are going to pay for it or your family. Directly or indirectly.

The problem is that there are extreme positions. Even on this forum (talking about all users in general) you have either extreme nationalists, Islamists, extreme atheists etc. Same in KSA and the majority is caught between all of those groups that are battling for "the truth".
I consider all of them annoying and don't agree with them. A sane middle ground is to be found and certain people should not hijack religion and tell what is right and wrong. I will never accept some state cleric telling me and my people that some 24 year old nonsense law is part of "our" culture. As I already explained in post 9 in this very thread. Mine you for telling that I would be labelled as a "traitor" by some sheep. Can you imagine that?

The conclusion is that Hashemite rule should be reinstalled in KSA.

Cheers.

Another quick thing @Ahmed Jo.

I tell you another thing. I am a practicing Muslim with my own opinions on that. I recognize that KSA is a special case in the Muslim world for being the cradle of Islam. I respect and understand that our society is mostly conservative and I am perfectly fine with that. What I do not like though is that some sectors in our society think that they have a monopoly on religion.

In my view people should be taught about Islam in a much more diverse way. Let me give you an example. Before KSA was created back in 1932 in Makkah in the Masjid Al-Haram you had 4 different madahib that were taught. Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi'i and Hanbali. Now the state is teaching you Hanbali fiqh. I would personally like if the Grand Mufti of KSA for instance was drafted from those 4 madahib. Our Shia (Twelver, Ismaili and the small minority of Zaydis) have their own spiritual leaders already.

If you want to put a label on me then I follow the Shafi'i fiqh as you already know which most Makkawi Hashemites do.

KSA is the only Muslim country on the planet were you have almost every single Sunni and Shia sect that can be found indigenously. That diversity should be embraced and celebrated. After all, it's all Islam although I do not agree with the Shia school of thought for instance on a lot of fronts but if some other compatriots do then what am I going to do about it?

That's my opinion at least and if others believe otherwise then fair enough. It's their choice.

Lol I think that ship has sailed with regards to Hashemite rule in KSA. If it ever happens though, don't forget your friends

Anyway, I generally tend to support secularism but I also recognize the role of religion in Arab societies in general and I respect it as long as it doesn't seek to control those who don't believe every word of it. I'm glad with the way that Jordan has been handling this subject lately. The regime is always pushing for tolerance between (and within) Islam and other faiths and I think this will pay off in the long run. There is always room for improvement, of course, but I'm patient. As for democracy, it's not a failed project if it's done correctly and gradually. When democracy is rushed on a people that are not used to it, bad things happen. An example of this would be Egypt. And there is no room for error in the Mideast like there was in Europe (except for the whole communist threat thing), because that's when sectarian forces will move in and take advantage of the chaos.
Currently, the Jordanian parliament is largely not representative of the people or the nation but rather for their own reputations and interests. This is due to the elections law which does not encourage the formation of political parties. As a result, the Jordanian Muslim brotherhood is basically the only organized political party while the other options, the socialists and the communist party (I know, right?) are just not realistic options and not very relatable to the average citizen. Although, the socialists may have a future. Most MPs run as independents and as a result, mostly represent only themselves (there are a few exceptions, though.) The elections law needs to be reformed and that's when the process of forming parties that represent large sections or society will work itself out. The government needs to be sure that it won't blow up in their faces if they reform the law. In the meanwhile, we'll see how things go..

Btw, don't apologize for taking a long time to respond. God knows I take my time lol

 

[al-Hasani]

Lol I think that ship has sailed with regards to Hashemite rule in KSA. If it ever happens though, don't forget your friends

Anyway, I generally tend to support secularism but I also recognize the role of religion in Arab societies in general and I respect it as long as it doesn't seek to control those who don't believe every word of it. I'm glad with the way that Jordan has been handling this subject lately. The regime is always pushing for tolerance between (and within) Islam and other faiths and I think this will pay off in the long run. There is always room for improvement, of course, but I'm patient. As for democracy, it's not a failed project if it's done correctly and gradually. When democracy is rushed on a people that are not used to it, bad things happen. An example of this would be Egypt. And there is no room for error in the Mideast like there was in Europe (except for the whole communist threat thing), because that's when sectarian forces will move in and take advantage of the chaos.
Currently, the Jordanian parliament is largely not representative of the people or the nation but rather for their own reputations and interests. This is due to the elections law which does not encourage the formation of political parties. As a result, the Jordanian Muslim brotherhood is basically the only organized political party while the other options, the socialists and the communist party (I know, right?) are just not realistic options and not very relatable to the average citizen. Although, the socialists may have a future. Most MPs run as independents and as a result, mostly represent only themselves (there are a few exceptions, though.) The elections law needs to be reformed and that's when the process of forming parties that represent large sections or society will work itself out. The government needs to be sure that it won't blow up in their faces if they reform the law. In the meanwhile, we'll see how things go..

Btw, don't apologize for taking a long time to respond. God knows I take my time lol

فات اللي فات

Could not agree more.

It was very interesting that you took the time and talked about the inner dynamics of Jordanian politics. I mean we should cautiously look at whatever our neighbors are doing of good and bad.

What I see though in the Sunni Arab world is that some people have perverted Islam which could have fatal consequences if it not already has. We cannot let unecudated village idiots abuse it. Every internet "cleric" etc. and other non-knowlegedable people should be dealt it and in the case of KSA I can happily say that this has very much been the case for a very long time. Yet there are still dangers from the outside. We should work jointly to combat such "clerics" and the misguided souls that follow them. Look at ISIS for instance or similar groups. There should be a zero tolerance for this.

Most people can perfectly combine religion with modernity and be productive citizens. So that's not the problem or case here.

Haha, that reminds me of the need to leave PDF and concentrate on the real matters (preparation for exams etc.) But that's what PDF does with it. Ruins your academic life.

 

[somebozo]

Well, most of Hijaz and many other regions are. Even Najd have many reformists and times have changed. Let a fellow compatriot that have lived in KSA for ages explain it to you. @somebozo No, he is neither pro-Arab nor anti-Arab. He will confirm this.

I tell you this now. Most women obviously are against this nonsense law and most men too. Especially the current generation. The clergy (which are the ones with all the influence on this field) are the ones that are against it by large. As such laws could result in further changes in the society that they are no fans of as their influence would then diminish.

I am enjoying my time now and frankly put Jeddah is full of religious bigots on average level. As compared to Abdullah era reformed Najd and Riyadh as I like to put it - religious conservatism is now confined to ever dying Mutaween bridgade. I have been doing up-down around Qassim, Najd, Dirriya and Riyadh for last several months and now you see a well educated and open minded community here. Some hardcore still exist around Qassim, people tend to stay away from them like criminals. King Abdullah reforms have worked, and will continue to work. Riyadh is turning into a true international Capital...

 

[al-Hasani]

I am enjoying my time now and frankly put Jeddah is full of religious bigots on average level. As compared to Abdullah era reformed Najd and Riyadh as I like to put it - religious conservatism is now confined to ever dying Mutaween bridgade. I have been doing up-down around Qassim, Najd, Dirriya and Riyadh for last several months and now you see a well educated and open minded community here. Some hardcore still exist around Qassim, people tend to stay away from them like criminals. King Abdullah reforms have worked, and will continue to work. Riyadh is turning into a true international Capital...

Really? That was not my impression last time I was back in KSA and visited Jeddah which was this very Summer. The thing is that Jeddah is a very cosmopolitan city (one of the most cosmopolitan in the Muslim world) and it hosts Muslim communities from all countries of the world almost. So if you see certain tendencies it is not certain if those are that of locals or the many other communities of the city. To me Jeddawis have always been very moderate and liberal. True to the Hijazi spirit and tradition.

Well, I think that this goes for most of KSA. I mean regarding the increasingly well-educated and open-minded community. I mean my generation (early 1990's) and the upcoming one proofs this.

I must say that if what you are telling me is correct then it is very encouraging and something that makes me happy. I am less familiar with Najd and in any case I have been away from KSA for far too many years now.

I still believe that in terms of conservatism (not everything is bad about that) then Al-Qassim still takes the price. Riyadh has been that for a long time but for each year there is bigger progress.

Anyway I am glad that you are enjoying your time and I hope that this continues. Oh, and condolences for that senseless massacre in Peshawar. As you might know already then we Arabs and the Muslim world as a whole (at least large part of it) is getting too used to such massacres. We must kill the bastards and end this madness once and for all.

This very same week 150 Iraqi Sunni Arab women were murdered by the ISIS bastards in Fallujah and 15 school girls died in a car bomb attack in Yemen. I have come to the conclusion (I did long ago but did not really like to speak out about it as it might hurt many feelings and stir controversy) but the clergy that is silent when such things happen is a corrupted clergy. I want to see an active clergy. Many people have blind faith in them and they should use their influence to do good.

One can only hope that GCC remains secure as usual although we don't know what can happen nowadays. It's in the hands of the leadership and people and I have somewhat big faith in the latter.

I don't have any hope in much of the Muslim leadership anywhere but I might be too harsh and have too big expectations.

Welcome back regardless.

 

[Armstrong]

@al-Hasani 'KSA still offers lot of opportunities for Indians' - Colluding with our Enemies !

 

[al-Hasani]

@al-Hasani 'KSA still offers lot of opportunities for Indians' - Colluding with our Enemies !

KSA is home to one of the biggest number of foreign citizens, workers, visitors etc. from all over the world. There is basically no nationality that is somehow not present in KSA. Almost.

Besides most Indians in KSA are Indian Muslims.

KSA is second in the world (!) when it comes to remittances after no other than the U.S.A.

Kingdom world’s second top remittance-sending country | Economy | Saudi Gazette

Saudi Arabia is world’s second highest remittance-sending country |

You should read my first post in this thread and all the others. I am hardly positive when it comes to this news and some other issues that I covered.

 

[Armstrong]

KSA is home to one of the biggest number of foreign citizens, workers, visitors etc. Most Indians in KSA are Indian Muslims.

Don't play the 'Muslim' card with me !

'Cause it'll never work !

I'm a Nationalist before anything else !

I'd give away a life time's supply of Al-Baik for a dried piece of rotti from my beloved Pakistan !

You colluded with the Enemy and thats all I see here !

I thought we were Brothers !

 

[KingMamba]

KSA is home to one of the biggest number of foreign citizens, workers, visitors etc. from all over the world. There is basically no nationality that is somehow not present in KSA. Almost.

Besides most Indians in KSA are Indian Muslims.

KSA is second in the world (!) when it comes to remittances after no other than the U.S.A.

Kingdom world’s second top remittance-sending country | Economy | Saudi Gazette

Saudi Arabia is world’s second highest remittance-sending country |

You should read my first post in this thread and all the others. I am hardly positive when it comes to this news and some other issues that I covered.

So is that a yes or a no?

 

[Armstrong]

So is that a yes or a no?

@al-Hasani has even got an Indian spouse !

We will never forgive him for this betrayal !

 

[al-Hasani]

Don't play the 'Muslim' card with me !

'Cause it'll never work !

I'm a Nationalist before anything else !

I'd give away a life time's supply of Al-Baik for a dried piece of rotti from my beloved Pakistan !

You colluded with the Enemy and thats all I see here !

I thought we were Brothers !

I am not playing any cards. Just stating facts here.

I did not elect my leaders my friend. None of us did. You at least did.

So is that a yes or a no?

That something that Indian ambassador or official says. I don't know. In all seriousness then every country in GCC offers more opportunities for the average Indian Joe than their own home country.

@al-Hasani has even got an Indian spouse !

We will never forgive him for this betrayal !

 

[Armstrong]

I am not playing any cards. Just stating facts here.

I did not elect my leaders my friend. None of us did. You at least did.

That something that Indian ambassador or official says. I don't know. In all seriousness then every country in GCC offers more opportunities for the average Indian Joe than their own home country.

See @KingMamba !

You're an Arab type thing too; though heaven knows how an Arab ended up looking like Machete's nephew but why don't you knock some sense into him !