Saudi Arabia seeks Pakistan's cooperation for NATO-like military alliance

[Hell hound]

we will join you as a brothers not as a slave these should be pakistan terms on take it or leave it bases.
1) treat our country and our civilians as you treat your arab allies and citizens respectively
2) first day after formation of collation send troops(every collation partner not just ksa) to fight in fata with us as we are also fighting a defensive war here and make a blood bond with us so we know you are willing to spill your blood for us the same way we are willing to spill ours for you.
3)pact should be defensive in nature and no country have any obligation to protect other if it was the aggressor. saudia, uae. pakistan. egypt and turkey being the larger powers should have veto power in any matter.
4)our nukes are off the table in any war be it offensive or defensive.
5) a R&D pool fund should be built which is funded by every collation partner and purpose of this fund is to promote in house manufacturing of modern tech (tot or other type of help can be also be bought through this fund)
6)saudia is not de facto leader of this collation so military leader is selected on merit and by consent of every major player(veto power can be used here) not on bases of nationality.
7)stop the funding of extremist in our country.
8)sharing of military technology.
what do you say @Khafee @MastanKhan @Imran Khan @Viper0011.

 

[mourning sage]

I will approve this so called nato like alliance if the Arabs send 2 hundred thousand soldiers to guard our Afghanistan border

You want to put in charge the cowardly Arabs of the world's most porous border which see constant cross border attacks? They couldnt even fight their own war with thousands running off from the front line during Yemen invasion.

On a side note, I think we should go ahead with this. Albeit, very cautiously and with plans to use this force in case a conflict arises with our ever so peaceful neighbors.

 

[axisofevil]

But we did not did we? Hence the need to join those treaties. We should have known better they were targeted at the Soviets and not at India. What were we thinking during the 65 war?



So is present day Pakistan. Where will you stop?

No of course not. Let's leave at that...and move on...

 

[KN-1]

You want to put in charge the cowardly Arabs of the world's most porous border which see constant cross border attacks? They couldnt even fight their own war with thousands running off from the front line during Yemen invasion.

Well i would not call them cowards.. they were owesome in past with Ummyad Caliphate, they lack modern military sense bcoz after Ottoman conquest of Arabia except egypt non of them have military culture.. Ottoman never recruited them.. we were lucky that we got most of Punjabis and Pashtun who served in world best British Army (at that time).. i think that porous region will give them experience of how to secure most difficult border..

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

You know on another forum I had a right heated discussion about average IQ across the world. Various Western studies have shown that Chinese/East Asians come top in IQ followed by Europeans and then the pecking order sort of goes down to us and Africa. Reading some of the comments here makes me worried maybe those studies are correct after all. Here is few facts that you need to chew on.

(1) CENTO/SEATO was gift from the heavens for Pakistan in 1950s/1960s. All those Sabre jets, Patton Tanks, Mangla/Tarbela Dams, new contonments, new capital city came thanks to CENTO membeship during Ayub Khan's period. In those days Pakistan was desperately poor. CENTO membership helped us to milch Uncle Sam. Look at the graph below. From 1950 on to 1970 look at the aid. Consider that what is now Pakistan had a tiny population of only about 35 million yet the aid was slightly less than what we got in 2010 which was huge as consequence of US tangle in Afghanistan and their reliance on Pak logistics. On back of that US even agreed and gave new F-16s. Consider that in 2016 Pakistan is far more prosperous than 1960 but it struggles to finance new dam construction. Yet in 1960s Pak initiated Tarbela and Mangla dams which still are the largest dams in Pak today. All that is fruits of CENTO.

(2) As regards Saudia. it's a joke. In early 1990s Iraq invaded Kuwait. Iraq was bitter enemy of Pakistan and had sided with India. Te Saudi's paid USA over $350 billion (probably over $700 billion in todays money) to evict Iraq out of Kuwait. Tell me guy's why did SA not ask Pak to do it in conjunction with USA. Give $125 billion to Pak which would have put Pakistan on the road to economic mini power by now and Pak would have been easily able to provide protection to the entire region?

The fact is Saudi's gaurantor is USA. As history proves. SA buy's latest military technology from USA. Why would Saudi need F-15s? A cheaper aircraft like Mirage 2000 would be more than sufficient for any local conflict. Instead of buying expensive useless tecnology which it still can't defend itself as proven by the need to depend om US Army in 1990. Instead the saved money could be used to support Pak military where the returns would be far greater. The fact is Saudi only needs Pak to get involved in it's little dirty intrusions like Yeman etc. If serious threat is posed against it it will run to USA. Not Pakistan.

Instead of buying useless and expensive Abrams tanks Saudi could easiy join Pakistan in joint tank manufacture. Pak know how and Saudi money would be a dream ticket to great things. However that is not to be. Saudi is USA addict. It will buy USA stuff just to buy influence in USA. Sort of keep USA sweet. The only alliance that matters in Riyad is US/Saudia. Rest is just bullshat.

You know on another forum I had a right heated discussion about average IQ across the world. Various Western studies have shown that Chinese/East Asians come top in IQ followed by Europeans and then the pecking order sort of goes down to us and Africa. Reading some of the comments here makes me worried maybe those studies are correct after all. Here is few facts that you need to chew on.

(1) CENTO/SEATO was gift from the heavens for Pakistan in 1950s/1960s. All those Sabre jets, Patton Tanks, Mangla/Tarbela Dams, new contonments, new capital city came thanks to CENTO membeship during Ayub Khan's period. In those days Pakistan was desperately poor. CENTO membership helped us to milch Uncle Sam. Look at the graph below. From 1950 on to 1970 look at the aid. Consider that what is now Pakistan had a tiny population of only about 35 million yet the aid was slightly less than what we got in 2010 which was huge as consequence of US tangle in Afghanistan and their reliance on Pak logistics. On back of that US even agreed and gave new F-16s. Consider that in 2016 Pakistan is far more prosperous than 1960 but it struggles to finance new dam construction. Yet in 1960s Pak initiated Tarbela and Mangla dams which still are the largest dams in Pak today. All that is fruits of CENTO.

(2) As regards Saudia. it's a joke. In early 1990s Iraq invaded Kuwait. Iraq was bitter enemy of Pakistan and had sided with India. Te Saudi's paid USA over $350 billion (probably over $700 billion in todays money) to evict Iraq out of Kuwait. Tell me guy's why did SA not ask Pak to do it in conjunction with USA. Give $125 billion to Pak which would have put Pakistan on the road to economic mini power by now and Pak would have been easily able to provide protection to the entire region?

The fact is Saudi's gaurantor is USA. As history proves. SA buy's latest military technology from USA. Why would Saudi need F-15s? A cheaper aircraft like Mirage 2000 would be more than sufficient for any local conflict. Instead of buying expensive useless tecnology which it still can't defend itself as proven by the need to depend om US Army in 1990. Instead the saved money could be used to support Pak military where the returns would be far greater. The fact is Saudi only needs Pak to get involved in it's little dirty intrusions like Yeman etc. If serious threat is posed against it it will run to USA. Not Pakistan.

Instead of buying useless and expensive Abrams tanks Saudi could easiy join Pakistan in joint tank manufacture. Pak know how and Saudi money would be a dream ticket to great things. However that is not to be. Saudi is USA addict. It will buy USA stuff just to buy influence in USA. Sort of keep USA sweet. The only alliance that matters in Riyad is US/Saudia. Rest is just bullshat.

If you have come across news papers from various western regions you would get a very clear idea regarding the IQ levels. West does not want its majority to be talking about policies and government critics on public streets hence they decided to develop a method to lower the interest. The way was to have news papers give less articles and more scandals. In the longer terms this lead to a decrease in IQ as the information that was being attained through reading news was very limited. While the people who were interested to have a very high IQ level were instructed to read books while travelling in place of reading news papers. These people became the think tanks and control the entire world politics today.

Now if we compare the Eastern countries they have good IQ levels because everyone is reading news paper which is reporting most of the news that is being gathered through out the world. However the interests of book leading have diminished considerably which would indeed take time to revive.

Now coming back to the issue on hand of alliance ... one has to keep in mind what the goal is.
History is the best judge and also an instrument of knowledge. Great sayings and codes of morality have shown how the alliances were made in the western cultures over the past, what their aim was and what they achieved.

If you remember that a few years back South Sudan gained her independence, at that time it was thought that because a new Christian State is being created in a oil rich area all the Christen states would invest and in no time this country would stand on her feet and became a force to be reckoned with. However the true reality is very different, people of South Sudan are dependent on aid to feed them. The money that is coming is not even enough to feed them for two times a day. Lack of education and development in infrastructure is also very evident hence no further development has taken place.

But if today there is a war between one of the neighbours and the western countries South Sudan would be benefiting from this as every thing required would be brought in no time. This would be because of the political will and need of the hour nothing more.

Now going back to Pakistan and the relationship of CETO and CENTO, the time was ripe the Pakistan was the need of the hour hence political will was there but that all ending as soon as it was realised Pakistan has gained more then it had bargained for. This was seen in the 1965 War, hence once it ended sanctions came along. Once again Russia decided to fulfil her dream of getting to the warm waters CETO and CENTO was reactivated Pakistan became the forefront of this alliance.

Post 9/11 Pakistan was offered preferred nation status and hence we see that the US is sending US Aid and various other Aids. This is because of the same need of the hour.

Now the alliance with Saudi Arabia.
You are correct Saudi Arabia is well trained and they have taken their training as well as have contributed to the US led Gulf Wars even though the had to pay for the entire Wars. Today the politics of USA has changed dramatically, the tax payers are demanding that for how much longer USA would be acting as the policeman of the world. They do not want American Citizens to be fighting for others and want all the bases to be closed and come home. The Saudi's know this that once the US bases are gone then they are for themselves. Now they require an alternate, here is an alternate Muslim Sunni countries unite and the problem is solved. The only issue is how would Pakistan react to this because Pakistan does not want to take sides in the Shia / Sunni like alliance.

The next few months would really be interesting in the development and scope of what Pakistan would be interested in.

I think NATO before it was formed , they actually participated in collaboration and then WW2 before the cooperation was maintained later after war

There has to be ample definition of constitution for the organization , the leadership and goals and that takes time to sort out

An interesting development but really the sequence should be

1) Trade - Human Relations cooperation (First 5-10 years)
> More cooperation on Field of Education
> More collaboration in Health Science / Medicine
> More reforms in collaboration on companies opening businesses across partner countries

What about relaxed trade agreement ?

2) Collaboration (Continues Military exercises)
> Establishment of Trade between Military / Training / Equipment

3) Poverty Reduction

Exchange of ideas between

> Universities
> Economist
> Financial policy makers
> Entrepreneurs/ Businesses Expos


4) Military Alliance
Gradual growth of the Military cooperation with Goals and board definition of cooperation
(10-15 Year)

Only after such definitive steps have to be taken over 10-15 years can a workable organization can exist due to the complexities of modern society and complex Geo political challenges different countries face

Also there has to be a more broad discussion on how disputes against decisions would be handled and what kind of Diplomatic mechanism would be there for decisions - again this needs great amount of debate between members (possible members)


Example:

* Honorary full member China (Since china is one of the most peaceful nations of world)
Also China is the oldest civilization in world so makes sense to invite them to an alliance

* There may be some other invites depending on need

----------------Core----------------------
Pakistan - Democratic Republic
Turkey - Democratic
Egypt - Authoritarian Control
Saudia - Monarchy
Algeria - Military
UAE - Monarchy
Qatar - Monarchy
Kuwait - Monarchy
Oman - Monarchy
Malaysia - Democracy
Indonesia - Democracy
Tunisia - Military / Democracy
Bangladesh - Quaky Democracy/ Military
Morocco - Monarchy
-------------------------------------------------------
Conditional - after review (Jordan)
Conditional - after review (Lebanon) (Messed up)
Conditional - after review (Palestine) (Messed up)
Conditional - after review (Iran)
Conditional - after review (Iraq) (Messed up)
Conditional - after review (Afghanistan) (Messed up)
Conditional - after review (Libya) (Messed up)
Conditional - Central Asian Countries
Conditional - Sudan / Syria (Messed up)


The countries do not have a universally agreeable format of governance , the decision making process is different so the process of agreeable operational principle is something that will at least take 10-15 years

Do you think that Pakistan does not have any of the above mentioned goals?
Pakistan and other countries have initially bilateral contracts in all the above mentioned goals the only thing now is to move these bilateral contract to the next level which is multilateral. This is indeed what is going to materialise in the coming few years.

 

[randomradio]

I started laughing the minute I read the thread title.

Pakistan will be forced to fight Arab wars and the Arabs won't/can't fight Pakistan's wars.

There are not only Arabs in this Alliance(if ever).
Btw,you have to start somewhere,who says,maybe in the future,Iran will join to so that it will be a real Muslim Alliance.

The ideological differences between the Saudis/UAE/Kuwait etc and Iran is far too much. Iran will join this alliance only if the Arab monarchies cease to exist. At least the purpose of this alliance is to counter Iran.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

My statement was that in order to form a organization the countries need to be a bit more closer to each other via economic and social cooperation in term of knowledge and human capital, business and open trade

The goals what Pakistan may have or not have , may be perhaps not defined on paper perhaps it would be more less verbal but my statement was that the organization (if any) has to be defined in an agreeable operational entity agreeable by most nations in the group. Such discussions are long and tedious and have to look at various dynamics.

Discussion at high level vs , actual implementation efforts are two different tasks , and implementation requires sufficient human resource from all participating nations to draft documents and MOU so there is a mutual understanding on the nature of the organization.

Which can be studied by the independent bodies of the governments interested to participate in the organizations

In a Monarch system the decisions come from the King , however in Democratic system the decision making process may be more complex , shared between the parliament & Military etc

Also democratic interpretations are different for each nation (so the whole process is complex)

So a framework has to be developed for the nations , so they can sit and determine how they can

a) Enhance the social economic level of all participate countries by Open trade
b) Field of medicine , Education and School , hospitals etc
c) How free trade can be implemented
d) How to improve certain legislative equality.rights across countries for human rights (Human rights = Women/Men /Children / Elderly)
e) Protection of Minority Rights should be charter that is accepted by all members also their religious right to practice their own religion
f) No more chopping of heads, punishment of prisoners need to be that of international standard across all member nations

f) Charter has to be created which defines what the heck is vital worth protecting as a organization

And see how much % they agree on etc via debate and internal discussion

Equally important once all the members start to work on these frameworks , gradually the Military component can also participate slowly into joint missions or perhaps equipment purchase agreement between each nation etc

NATO is a very complex organization and it took good 10-25 year period for this organization to form over time

NATO has universal weapons or common standards for weapons

It would be helpful to see some nations purchasing some Military goods from Pakistan

• Thunder , F22P etc Tanks , Ammunition etc - Some MOU would be good start
• Example if all Gulf nations purchased 36 Thunder each or 500 Al Khalid tank etc or 4 F22P frigate each

Pakistan and China for example great closeness due to high level of closeness on all level trade, mutual respect , military , government , school / university collaboration etc

Pakistan already has great ties with China
Pakistan - Turkey relations are 10/10
Pakistan already has great ties with countries that use our weapons etc
Pakistan - Gulf Nation ties are also fantastic but these still need to reach for example level that of Pakistan - China
Similarly we have good ties with EU or USA , obviously some EU nations are more close to Pakistan then other

But still I think NATO like entity requires 10-15 years that does not mean fighting against ISIS can wait that long , cooperative missions can take place

Effort also need to be in place to bring Iran to Negotiation table, every one except ISIS should have chance to start fresh work on peace in region

The organization's goal should be Economy (Reducing poverty, making proper school , hospitals, Better human rights (Women/Men) and then Military )

Once these framework develop then you can say sure we know what we are protecting

 

[trident2010]

I think it is a great idea. In the long run United states of ummah or Union of islamic states with headquarter in rawalpindi will make all other competing nations eg EU, US, India etc think twice to even look at then mighty for example pakistan or bangladesh. All of you guys do visa free travel and settle and buy properties in Saudi arabia or uae for example. And ofcourse all the military and nukes are available for each member state to protect the interests of Islamic states (bye bye Israel, India for example). I say go for it without a second thought

 

[randomradio]

Hi,

Pakistan will have to chose sides---

It would be very interesting from an Indian PoV if Pak picks sides in the Middle East.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

I think it is a great idea. In the long run United states of ummah or Union of islamic states with headquarter in rawalpindi will make all other competing nations eg EU, US, India etc think twice to even look at then mighty for example pakistan or bangladesh. All of you guys do visa free travel and settle and buy properties in Saudi arabia or uae for example. And ofcourse all the military and nukes are available for each member state to protect the interests of Islamic states (bye bye Israel, India for example). I say go for it without a second thought

Not sure what this statement has to do with what the thread is all about

It would be very interesting from an Indian PoV if Pak picks sides in the Middle East.

We would care less what India thinks

 

[randomradio]

We would care less what India thinks

That's a good attitude to have. But would your 'alliance' buddies think the same?

KSA can easily challenge India and actually take you down also. Remember, if you ever had this scenario played out, you'll be involved in a Naval and Air battle with them. Outside of an AC, they have advance weapons system to deal with pretty much anyone outside of the US. Plus an AC become a no barrier due to their superior aircraft and weapons systems.

Imagine what 300-400 of your top-line jets would be facing, a massive barrage of modern jets like the EFT, F-15's, F-15SA, etc. KSA and India would both be future's regional power. Indian Army would be massive obviously but you can't deploy a million men across the ocean. Its only good for China and Pakistan. The rest you'll fight someone with, will be the IN. So you could build 2 more AC's and have 60-80 planes on them each, KSA's air-force can deal with them. Their pilots have been trained by the USAF / USN and have recent combat experience alongside with the US in many operations.

Oh boy. The last I checked the Saudis operate 5 times lesser ships and subs than we have on order today.

Anyway...
F-15E maximum unrefueled combat radius with CFTs and drop tanks. Can't refuel over the Arabian Sea.

FGFA minimum combat radius with 1 refuel over the Arabian Sea without drop tanks.

 

[KN-1]

Anyway...
F-15E maximum unrefueled combat radius with CFTs and drop tanks. Can't refuel over the Arabian Sea.

FGFA minimum combat radius with 1 refuel over the Arabian Sea without drop tanks.

Oman can station Saudi aircraft, they are part of GCC and the alliance

 

[Pandora]

So now they are calling for a new form of word that can bring canon fodders for them. In short they are saying come save our *** from fires that we lit our self. I say let the Arabs burn as no one ever came to our help in the first place. How many Arabs came running with guns to help us when we were at war with India. Dont know why Pakistan has to bear Stupid people who still use the words Umah.

 

[randomradio]

Oman can station Saudi aircraft, they are part of GCC and the alliance

That entire region will become a no fly zone in fact, not just the Arabian Sea. That's why I positioned the dot in Saudi air space, outside the Indian Navy's air defence zone.

 

[T-Rex]

So now they are calling for a new form of word that can bring canon fodders for them. In short they are saying come save our *** from fires that we lit our self. I say let the Arabs burn as no one ever came to our help in the first place. How many Arabs came running with guns to help us when we were at war with India. Dont know why Pakistan has to bear Stupid people who still use the words Umah.

Just because Arabs were stupid not to care about the Ummah doesn't mean you have to be stupid like them. Had they cared about the Ummah they wouldn't be in a position they are in today. There's a lesson for the entire Muslim World in this. Just as Russia had abandoned Saddam and Qaddafi, uncle sam has abandoned KSA and Turkey against the Russian bear. It will be wrong to assume that the Russian bear is doing all for the Asad regime, Russia is doing everything to bring the region under her control, Asad is just her tool and if Asad ever dares to say anything the Russians do not like he will be discarded. So, the rest is not too hard to figure out and therefore, the move to form a common defence platform to protect the Muslim states is not a bad idea but of course, the motive behind this idea has to be clean.