Saudi Arabia, Russia, arms talks and S-400 deal

[ptldM3]

You guys (ethnic Russian Slavs) have a recorded history that is barely 1150 years old. Comparing to the states of the Arab world and civilizations (cradle of civilization) this is a mere joke.

I know the education system in the Arab world is on par with Africa but I will give you a break. Slavs were secluded tribes that first had contacts with outsides around the 5th century. Slave did not just fall from the sky, Slavs were only mentioned in ancient text from various empires and tribes around the 5th century, but they obviously existed prior to that time.

1150 years ago the Abbasid Caliphate (founded by people from modern-day KSA - Hijaz to be precise) ruled much of Caucasus.

What's your point?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emirate_of_Tbilisi

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabs_in_the_Caucasus






Umayyad Caliphate:



Even the earliest Muslim Caliphate (Rashidun) had reached Caucasus:

Again what's your point? You keep mentioning "Muslims" ruling people and modern day Saudi Arabia ruling foreign lands including the Caucuses. The truth is Saudis can't even rule over skinny 15 year Hauthis in sandals. As for bragging about Muslims ruling different lands, Muslims also were kicked out of Europe, the Ottomans defeated many, many times by the infidel Russians and other foreigners, the Israelis thrashed the Arabs time after time after being attacked.

What is it with you people and always talking religion esspecially Islam? For instance, I often hear you people argue, 'what's the strongest Muslims country?'

As for Russians (ethnic Slavs) being native to Caucasus, please give me a break.

I didn't say they were native to the area. I said that they lived there longer then any artificial Arab country has ever existed, so you shouldn't question Russian sovereignty when many none Arabs live in the Middle East, should we start carving up Arab countries and give the Assyrians, Kurds, Armanians, ect there own countries? The inhabitants of the caucuses area are also technically not native since they are are mixed races in the area including mongol.




Like I said, almost every country has had wars to expand its territory. There are countries that have 100s of different ethnicities. Look at the different ethic groups in Pakistan and India, should every ethic group have their own country? Should Turkey give land back to the Armanians, Kurds and various other people?

Should Mexico be broken up and be decided by the Aztecs, Incas and myans?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_conquest_of_the_Caucasus

"You" (as in the former German Tsar family) conquered those lands. Unless you are going to tell me that you predate native peoples in those lands such as Circassians, Avars, Georgians, Chechens etc. to name a few.

In fact you guys committed genocide against those people.

And you guys committed genocides against basically everyone you came in contact with so spare us the crocodile tears.

 

[Saif al-Arab]

I know the education system in the Arab world is on par with Africa but I will give you a break. Slavs were secluded tribes that first had contacts with outsides around the 5th century. Slave did not just fall from the sky, Slavs were only mentioned in ancient text from various empires and tribes around the 5th century, but they obviously existed prior to that time.











What's your point?











Again what's your point? You keep mentioning "Muslims" ruling people and modern day Saudi Arabia ruling foreign lands including the Caucuses. The truth is Saudis can't even rule over skinny 15 year Hauthis in sandals. As for bragging about Muslims ruling different lands, Muslims also were kicked out of Europe, the Ottomans defeated many, many times by the infidel Russians and other foreigners, the Israelis thrashed the Arabs time after time after being attacked.

What is it with you people and always talking religion esspecially Islam? For instance, I often hear you people argue, 'what's the strongest Muslims country?'











I didn't say they were native to the area. I said that they lived there longer then any artificial Arab country has ever existed, so you shouldn't question Russian sovereignty when many none Arabs live in the Middle East, should we start carving up Arab countries and give the Assyrians, Kurds, Armanians, ect there own countries? The inhabitants of the caucuses area are also technically not native since they are are mixed races in the area including mongol.




Like I said, almost every country has had wars to expand its territory. There are countries that have 100s of different ethnicities. Look at the different ethic groups in Pakistan and India, should every ethic group have their own country? Should Turkey give land back to the Armanians, Kurds and various other people?

Should Mexico be broken up and be decided by the Aztecs, Inkas and myans?












And you guys committed genocides against basically everyone you came in contact with so spare us the crocodile tears.

It is not. It is much better.

It took you 1 hour to write this nonsense?

Of course every "ethnic group" did not jump down from the sky. What's your point, genius?

The FACT remains that recorded Russian history as in a people and nation began barely 1150 years ago. Slavs emerged at the time of Prophet Muhammad's birth as per all evidences. So for you to blabber about nation states and by default civilizations in a context of Arabs and the Arab world (cradle of civilization and home to the first nation states and civilizations on the planet) and to talk about "artificial" is comical.

If anything Russia is the most artificial country given the fact that you (Tsar's) conquered non-native peoples in the past few centuries. Traditional Slavic Russia was confined to Western Russia. 90% of your landmass was the native lands of other peoples from Caucasus in the South to Siberia in the far East. Everyone knows this.

As for my point, it was to illustrate your fallacious claim of Russians (ethnic Russian Slavs) having a "long" history in Caucasus which is inaccurate.

We were talking about ancient history not what is occurring in 2017 and besides that it is inaccurate but you have demonstrated time and time again (for all to see) that you have little clues of the Yemeni arena.

Those empires might have been Caliphates but they were founded, ruled and run by Arabs. So it is not any different than other imperial people taking pride in their Christian or non-Christian empires.

When it comes to genocide Russians have no equals in history.

Take a look below.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history#Russian_Empire_and_the_Soviet_Union

On the other hand you cannot mention a single genocide that Arabs committed in history despite having created 3 of the 11 largest empires in history (more than any other ethnic group in the top 15) among other Kingdoms, Sultanates, Emirates, Sheikdoms, Imamates, Sharifates etc. on 3 continents (Asia, Africa and Europe).

I also don't see any Arab genocides on that list above.

Anyway back to the topic.

I see no reason for KSA/GCC or any Arab state to bankroll Putin let alone buy Russian weapons when there are better alternatives. Nor have I seen Russia being willing to offer JV's and TOT. Simple as that.

You must most likely be content with exporting to Belarus, Algeria and such likes.

Lastly I am of distant Circassian ancestry as quite a few Arabs are in Sham (Syria, Jordan), Egypt, Iraq and KSA. So no, there is nothing "childish" about not being favorable of Russian state policies given the history of Russian crimes and genocide in that part of the world (Caucasus). Which is also why most people in that region despise Russia.

That however matters little as it is distant and I have no ties to Caucasus itself but that does not prevent me from wanting that region to gain independency. Or being against Russian occupation. But that is not the main point here.

For once bankrolling Putin would be wrong as he supports Al-Assad actively.

The main point is that there are better alternatives and that Russia offers no JV's or TOT.

Anyway you are probably angry that KSA is having close military ties to Ukraine. Not my problem.

BTW funny how you guys are supporting separatists (terrorist using your logic in Syria) against an sovereign state (Ukraine) and attacking but not only, also incorporating sovereign Ukrainian land (Crimea). Wonder how many "Russians" like you would be crying if KSA incorporated lands of a sovereign nation, lol.

 

[ptldM3]

It is not. It is much better.

It took you 1 hour to write this nonsense?

Of course every "ethnic group" did not jump down from the sky. What's your point, genius?

The FACT remains that recorded Russian history as in a people and nation began barely 1150 years ago. Slavs emerged at the time of Prophet Muhammad's birth as per all evidences. So for you to blabber about nation states and by default civilizations in a context of Arabs and the Arab world (cradle of civilization and home to the first nation states and civilizations on the planet) and to talk about "artificial" is comical.

If anything Russia is the most artificial country given the fact that you (Tsar's) conquered non-native peoples in the past few centuries. Traditional Slavic Russia was confined to Western Russia. 90% of your landmass was the native lands of other peoples from Caucasus in the South to Siberia in the far East. Everyone knows this.

As for my point, it was to illustrate your fallacious claim of Russians (ethnic Russian Slavs) having a "long" history in Caucasus which is inaccurate.

We were talking about ancient history not what is occurring in 2017 and besides that it is inaccurate but you have demonstrated time and time again (for all to see) that you have little clues of the Yemeni arena.

Those empires might have been Caliphates but they were founded, ruled and run by Arabs. So it is not any different than other imperial people taking pride in their Christian or non-Christian empires.

When it comes to genocide Russians have no equals in history.

Take a look below.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history#Russian_Empire_and_the_Soviet_Union

On the other hand you cannot mention a single genocide that Arabs committed in history despite having created 3 of the 11 largest empires in history (more than any other ethnic group in the top 15) among other Kingdoms, Sultanates, Emirates, Sheikdoms, Imamates, Sharifates etc. on 3 continents (Asia, Africa and Europe).

I also don't see any Arab genocides on that list above.

Anyway back to the topic.

I see no reason for KSA/GCC or any Arab state to bankroll Putin let alone buy Russian weapons when there are better alternatives. Nor have I seen Russia being willing to offer JV's and TOT. Simple as that.

You must most likely be content with exporting to Belarus, Algeria and such likes.

Lastly I am of distant Circassian ancestry as quite a few Arabs are in Sham (Syria, Jordan), Egypt, Iraq and KSA. So no, there is nothing "childish" about not being favorable of Russian state policies given the history of Russian crimes and genocide in that part of the world (Caucasus). Which is also why most people in that region despise Russia.

That however matters little as it is distant and I have no ties to Caucasus itself but that does not prevent me from wanting that region to gain independency. Or being against Russian occupation. But that is not the main point here.

For once bankrolling Putin would be wrong as he supports Al-Assad actively.

The main point is that there are better alternatives and that Russia offers no JV's or TOT.

Anyway you are probably angry that KSA is having close military ties to Ukraine. Not my problem.

BTW funny how you guys are supporting separatists (terrorist using your logic in Syria) against an sovereign state (Ukraine) and attacking but not only, also incorporating sovereign Ukrainian land (Crimea). Wonder how many "Russians" like you would be crying if KSA incorporated lands of a sovereign nation, lol.

Again, Slavs were first written about in the 5th century yet you keep claiming they have only been around for 1150 years. You clearly don't know how long a century is. Slavs have been around longer then the 5th cuntury but the first mention of them was during that period.


You keep talking about the people living in the caucuses, they are not native to that land either, they were there before the Slavs but they are a mixed people's. Mongols are not native to the caucuses so your argument doesn't make any sense.

By your logic let's break Mexico up in the Aztecs, Incas and Myans. Let's break Pakistan and India up into hundreds of countries


As for your Circassian claim,

I have heard Saudis on this forum claiming to be direct decendents of Mohammad, the Royals and everyone in between. Other Saudis members keep making fake accounts (like 10 different accounts) and they also claim bogus stories. Saudis on this forum seem to lie a lot.

 

[Saif al-Arab]

Again, Slavs were first written about in the 5th century yet you keep claiming they have only been around for 1150 years. You clearly don't know what a century means.


You keep talking about the people living in the caucuses, they are not native to that land either, they were there before the Slavs but they are a mixed people's. Mongols are not native to the caucuses so your argument doesn't make any sense.

By your logic let's break Mexico up in the Aztecs, Incas and Myans. Let's break Pakistan and India up into hundreds of countries


As for your Circassian claim,

I have heard Saudis on this forum claiming to be direct decendents of Mohammad, the Royals and everyone in between

I am talking about Russian Slavs specifically and "Russian" statehood. Ever heard about the Varangian (Scandinavian) Rurik who supposedly founded Kievan Rus and what later became Russia?

So people who have lived in Caucasus since time immortal and who speak Caucasian languages (only spoken by those people in Caucasus and nowhere else) are not native?

Mongols? Where did they come form? Are you talking about fairly recent arrivals in Kalmykia? That is not Caucasus proper if Caucasus at all. It's just south of Astrakhan.

I am a direct descendent of Prophet Muhammad (saws) and a Hijazi Hashemite. As for House of Saud members, there have never been any here. Ridiculous notion that they would spent time on some Pakistani forum. As if any royal anywhere would do that. Or even similar forums.

Understand that I have nothing against Russians or Russia expect for SOME of Putin's foreign policies and SOME past policies of Russian/Soviet rulers. I made that clear in my first post.

You are supposedly an Russian Jew so not sure why you feel the need to defend something that your people had nothing to do with.

Anyway let's presume that KSA made this deal with Russia and in general increased military ties with Russia. Would Russia be willing to offer JV's and TOT like other partners of KSA have been willing to do?

By 2030 the ambition of KSA is to be 50% self-sufficient in terms of military. KSA is looking for JV's and TOT with partners and the recent example is Ukraine (Antonov) and others will follow. If Russia is genuine and wants to increase its ties with KSA/GCC and help KSA in this regard, I would not be against it but I don't see that happening.

@ptldM3

This will be the history in the future :

Not people's nonsense !

Azeri/Iranian filth. Back to your cave. Russians conquered your lands (Azerbaijan) and parts of Iran (even invaded you during WW2) and slaughtered many of your people in the process and humiliated your Qajars too. Keep "sucking" doggy.

Return to your own section. This is the Arab section. You are unwanted. Be lucky that there is no Arab moderator currently.

 

[SOHEIL]

یَا مَعْشَرَ الْجِنِّ وَالْإِنسِ إِنِ اسْتَطَعْتُمْ أَن تَنفُذُوا مِنْ أَقْطَارِ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ فَانفُذُوا لَا تَنفُذُونَ إِلَّا بِسُلْطَانٍ ﴿۳۳﴾

Azeri/Iranian filth. Back to your cave. Russians conquered your lands (Azerbaijan) and slaughtered many of your people in the process and humiliated your Qajars too. Keep "sucking" doggy.

Low on ammo !?

Return to your own section. This is the Arab section. You are unwanted. Be lucky that there is no Arab moderator currently.

There is no Arab moderator !

Your behavior completely explains that ...

 

[Halimi]

Saudi Arabia should not only not purchase from Russia, rather it should help invest in the Ukrainian aerospace and military industry which are suffering due to the country's well-known economic and geopolitical problems.

This is an excellent time for Saudi Arabia to buy on the cheap in Ukraine and accelerate technological
development through JVs and ToT agreements.

Plus, traditional European allies have more to offer and are more trustworthy than Russia will ever be. The British and French, in particular, are far more dependable than Russia. Complement that with regional cooperation, such as with Turkey and Pakistan, and you're well on your way.

 

[EpiiC]

KSA buys drones from China, and UAE is making very good drones, A Turkish one of the best is coming in 2017/18, so there is plenty of choice..

Israel and USA have best drones, Heron TP and Reaper RQ-9 these have a large payload, range and endurance...Other countries don't offer the payload and range....

 

[Gasoline]

Tactical report isn't a reliable source of news. The good thing they can do is focusing on critical issues to steal your money.

Many rumors have been greatly exaggerated in recent years about Saudi-Russia deal of arms including S-400, Iskander, Mi-35..etc.

I can tell you that the deal hit a brick wall and never gonna be discussed anymore. Russia-KSA are neither allies nor enemies, but there is common interests that greatly affect the relations between them and predispose political climate either to agreement or disagreement upon an issue.


KSA being too much close to USA and the West makes the Russians not willing to spend much on building a cordial relations with KSA. Although KSA has offered Russia a lot of deals and chances in energy fields (inside & outside KSA) and direct deals that could pumps billions of dollars in Russian economy and GCC determined to work with Russia on keeping its interests in Middle East, but instead Russia chose to take aside with Assad and his allies with a full conviction and we have noting to do with that. Every country is free to choose the best for the interests of its people. Russia is selling weapons to Iran, and KSA is importing weapons from Ukraine and so on.

 

[Saif al-Arab]

Tactical report isn't a reliable source of news. The good thing they can do is focusing on critical issues to steal your money.

Many rumors have been greatly exaggerated in recent years about Saudi-Russia deal of arms including S-400, Iskander, Mi-35..etc.

I can tell you that the deal hit a brick wall and never gonna be discussed anymore. Russia-KSA are neither allies nor enemies, but there is common interests that greatly affect the relations between them and predispose political climate either to agreement or disagreement upon an issue.


KSA being too much close to USA and the West makes the Russians not willing to spend much on building a cordial relations with KSA. Although KSA has offered Russia a lot of deals and chances in energy fields (inside & outside KSA) and direct deals that could pumps billions of dollars in Russian economy and GCC determined to work with Russia on keeping its interests in Middle East, but instead Russia chose to take aside with Assad and his allies with a full conviction and we have noting to do with that. Every country is free to choose the best for the interests of its people. Russia is selling weapons to Iran, and KSA is importing weapons from Ukraine and so on.

Very well said, brother.

The key here is to what extent Russia wants to be a partner of KSA (JV's, TOT), what it could offer otherwise and what it could or would do to convince KSA of "changing sides" so to speak or at least put greater emphasis on military cooperation with Russia.

So far I have seen no will from Russia so it is no wonder that KSA prefers other partners who at the same time have better weaponry to offer and who are willing or would be willing to offer JV's and TOT.

Saudi Arabia should not only not purchase from Russia, rather it should help invest in the Ukrainian aerospace and military industry which are suffering due to the country's well-known economic and geopolitical problems.

This is an excellent time for Saudi Arabia to buy on the cheap in Ukraine and accelerate technological
development through JVs and ToT agreements.

Plus, traditional European allies have more to offer and are more trustworthy than Russia will ever be. The British and French, in particular, are far more dependable than Russia. Complement that with regional cooperation, such as with Turkey and Pakistan, and you're well on your way.

Well, said brother as well.

As for partners in terms of JV's and TOT I see China, Ukraine, Pakistan, Turkey, Indonesia and certain fellow Arab countries as the most obvious choices.

Which is why I for instance cannot understand why we have not much greater military ties with Indonesia given the large Indonesian community in KSA, the fact that there are 5 million Arab-Indonesians and our close and friendly historical ties.

I cannot phantom this. Not only in terms of defense cooperation but cooperation as a whole. I know that Indonesia is located far away but that cannot and should not be an excuse.

Nobody has ever answered me that question. When I talk with Indonesians about this they cannot understand it either!

 

[Windjammer]

KSA
Mon, 23 Jan 2017
Saudi plans to buy more Eurofighters still stand
Saudi Deputy Crown Prince Mohammad Bin Salman Bin Abdulaziz, who also acts as Defence Minister, is said to have intention to maintain plans to buy more fighter jets of type Eurofighter Typhoon in favor of the Royal Saudi Air Force (RSAF). The following 378-word report sheds more light on his position and tells what about his vision in this regard.

BUY NEWSWIRE
- See more at: http://www.tacticalreport.com/view_...ighters-still-stand/5269#sthash.npAVsURO.dpuf

 

[EpiiC]

KSA
Mon, 23 Jan 2017
Saudi plans to buy more Eurofighters still stand
Saudi Deputy Crown Prince Mohammad Bin Salman Bin Abdulaziz, who also acts as Defence Minister, is said to have intention to maintain plans to buy more fighter jets of type Eurofighter Typhoon in favor of the Royal Saudi Air Force (RSAF). The following 378-word report sheds more light on his position and tells what about his vision in this regard.

BUY NEWSWIRE
- See more at: http://www.tacticalreport.com/view_...ighters-still-stand/5269#sthash.npAVsURO.dpuf

48 more Eurofighters? Why not replace those Panavia with Dassault Rafale or F-35 II?

 

[Khafee]

48 more Eurofighters? Why not replace those Panavia with Dassault Rafale or F-35 II?

EF's are have been flying for quite some time in the Saudi AF, inducting Rafale would involve a whole set of new infrastructure to be built, and time from IOC to FOC could be very long. Not forgetting actual deliveries would not be before 2022 atleast. With EF this is not the case.

F-35 has not yet been cleared for KSA.

 

[EpiiC]

EF's are have been flying for quite some time in the Saudi AF, inducting Rafale would involve a whole set of new infrastructure to be built, and time from IOC to FOC could be very long. Not forgetting actual deliveries would not be before 2022 atleast. With EF this is not the case.

F-35 has not yet been cleared for KSA.

Yh your right there may be logistic problem with Rafale, but not with F-35 II thats an awesome plane, perhaps UAE can get it ?

 

[Khafee]

Yh your right there may be logistic problem with Rafale, but not with F-35 II thats an awesome plane, perhaps UAE can get it ?

It would be nice if we did. But no news as of yet.

 

[Blue Marlin]

It would be nice if we did. But no news as of yet.

what would the uaeaf prefer the typhoon or the rafale and why?