Saints and Soldiers

[jhungary]

After looking at this post in this forum

State Duma chief suggests trying US for WWII nuke attacks

Well, this post is a troll post, but there are some question worth noticing tho, about the state of mind of killing (Legal or Not) How normal people react to people being kill, death and dying. I have decided to write an article to address how soldiers themselves react to kill, death and dying. Hope to give reader more insight of how and what it feels for soldier in battle. Enjoy

If i have to list 10 questions that people ask when soldier coming home. Top of that list would have to be "Did you kill anybody?" Other than "How's it over there?" or "Did you see any combat?". People, or civilian in a sense, asked this question like they are expecting an answer to settle a bar bet or something.

I don't know about all vet, but some vet that i know would see this as an insult to answer such question, they may react violently toward those who asked. For me, i will just simply give him/her a smile and walk away. To some people, it may simply be just a silly question. but to some vet, me included, would mean that going back and face that demon you so want to leave behind.

Soldier Kills, that's the nature of the their business, wrote time and again here in this forum and everywhere else, don't make no mistake, each soldier are trained to kill, and that is the sole function you exist as a soldier.

Now, i am not going to say i am a saint. I did bad thing, let's put this out in the open first. Things that in normal life you would disgust, things that you would feel sick if you would have done them in a normal situation. But after all, war is not normal, in fact, was is never normal to begin with. Yet people who went thru war aren't insane or crazy to begin with. Sometime i wish i was crazy, it will be better off.

Who you killed, why you killed, how you killed, it's doesn't matter, right? It's just war. I mean, when a person is dead, he IS dead, how he died would make anything different? I mean, you can't exactly get anymore ultimate than dead right? I know this would matter a lot if we all sit on the same line, that called law. It matters when it's civil. But what's it matter in war?

But then one also have to ask, even tho the business of soldier is killing. Yet why is it used so lightly in a soldier's everyday life? Two word, "Killing" and "Dead" are heavily substituted within the Army, or within an operation. You would hear

"Target Eliminated"
"Silence it"
"Target Down"
"Finish it"
"He's gone"
"He's done"
"He's non-operational"
"He's expired"

instead of using the word Kills, or Killing, Dead or Dying.

Some people may suggest that we use those word so it would look professional. It would if we are in the business of writing. What we do not always in blaze of glory, what we do because we need to do, not like we wanted it, we needed it or we required it. Then using those word would make sense. You neither needed, wanted or required to kill, but then the very first meaning of using those word is to kill, you can say it's just a process of denial, but you can also say this is the way we are coping with the concept of killing.

Killing someone is never easy, it would get easier if you kill him from afar, say, it would be easier to press the button and drop a 500lbs bomb and kill about 10-100 people then it would be say when you kill a men with your rifle in range like 100 or 150 meters, then it would says you kill a men 5 ft in front of you using your sidearm.

The thought of killing is never easy to accept, but you can trick yourselves or lies to yourselves that it would just be like that. You can tell yourselves hey, i don't know if any of those people are dead when i drop the bomb, maybe they got done in by ground fires first, i don't know. Or Maybe that bullet that killed that men is not from my gun, i mean how can i see which bullet is which if i am 100 or 150 metes away and not just me firing at that dude? Now if you say like that, then using gone instead of dead and eliminate instead of kill would make sense, as this was called "Desensitize"

Now, when you get to a point, the last case is going to met you face to face, when you have to kill a man 5 ft away from you, you no longer can denied it, it must be you, as there are literally no one else. And now you need to suffer from the psychological consequences. And yet, you know it's you, and still when you found out that there would be no consequence. It may seems strange, but something will hits you.

Now step away from a bit, when i was about to deploy to Iraq for my first tour, everyone was excited. Yet everyone is scared. You won't know it and they won't tell you simply because you need to put on a brave face. Then the top bass pull over us some small lowly officer for a pre-deploy chat. and the colonel pull me out and says

"How do you feel, Lieutenant?"

"I am fine, ready to go kick some asses, 100%, sir" I know it was my bravado talking.

But then he said

"I know you are ready, but are you prepared? Lieutenant?"

I got stumped by this question. i don't really know what to say as I don't know what is it he is asking..., I mean, how can you be ready but not prepared? So i said

"What do you mean sir?" And the following sentence have been play back in the back of my mind over and over and over again ever since i came back from the gulf. Do you want to know what he said?

"War is for doers, not for thinkers"

Well, what he said does have a nice ring for it. And i can't seems to forget what he say not because i actually like that phase, or have anything to do with me stealing the British SAS motto and use it as our own "Who Dares Wins" But simply because how simple and how true is this sentence.

Back in Iraq, I have a mirror on my overhead, and everyday i woke up, i look at the mirror for a few second. Everyday, i got shit handed to me in a platter, i did that, i did this and it was over, and then i will be in my bed waking up to the same mirror. As each day passes, your feeling dies a little, and as day turn into the night and turn into days, it's getting routine.

Most of the things you do, you did not do that out of fear, nor out of hate, or out of necessity, this is just what you do. You went out, do some shit, come back, sleep in the same bed and looking at the same mirror looking at yourselves. You do that about 365 times and you go home.

Now waking up 2 years down the road, the smell of desert is a distant memory from behind. I look at thee same piece of mirror i bought to Iraq and brought back, the mirror is the same, the bed aren't and it just suddenly hits me, when you look at that same piece of mirror, you think back to all of the things that you've been done. You suddenly realise, you do not do it because somebody order you to, as i say people seldom use the work kills or dead in war, nor would it be out of fear, or in some case, you don't do it because it needed to, but you do that because you wanted to, so that you can come home alive. It's as simple as I wanted to kill that person so that i want to made it out alive. No one ever force you, that's your own desire.

Then you looking at the mirror, and you ask yourselves, "Who Are You?"

@Slav Defence
@Nihonjin1051
@levina
@Neptune
@AUSTERLITZ
@FaujHistorian
@Hakan
@Oscar
@Umair Nawaz
@Side-Winder
@KingMamba
@Horus
@WebMaster

 

[Levina]

As always a thought provoking article Gary!
Just yesterday on this forum I had to lambast a guy who was advocating the use of tac-nukes, galoots like him dont understand what a war is or what its consequences 're.
Soldiers like the rest of us 're normal human beings.
They know they 've to kill somebody but they 're not killing machines, which is what they've been used as all these years.
I'm just posting an excerpt from what I read...

One night they said to me, "Sgt. Goss, gather your best guys."
I say, "Where we going?"
They say, "Don't worry about it, just come on."
So we get in the car and go. We drive three blocks away, and there's six dead soldiers on the ground. They say, "You're casualty collecting tonight."
I'm not prepared for that. I wasn't taught how to do that. But you're there. So you pick them up, and you put them in a body bag, pieces by pieces, and you go back to your unit, and you stand inside your room. And they're like, "You're going on a patrol, come on." You're like, "Hang on a minute. Let me think about what I just did here." I just put six American guys in damn body bags. Nobody's prepared for that. Nobody's prepared for that thing to blow up on the side of the road. You're talking, and you're driving, and then something blows up, and the next thing you know, two of your guys are missing their faces. They just want you to get up the next day and go, go, let's do it again, you're a soldier. Yeah, I got the soldier part, OK?

PS:
I would not use soldiers and saints as synonyms though.

 

[nair]

As always a thought provoking article Gary!
Just yesterday on this forum I had to lambast a guy who was advocating the use of tac-nukes, galoots like him dont understand what a war is or what its consequences 're.
Soldiers like the rest of us 're normal human beings.
They know they 've to kill somebody but they 're not killing machines, which is what they've been used as all these years.
I'm just posting an excerpt from what I read...

One night they said to me, "Sgt. Goss, gather your best guys."
I say, "Where we going?"
They say, "Don't worry about it, just come on."
So we get in the car and go. We drive three blocks away, and there's six dead soldiers on the ground. They say, "You're casualty collecting tonight."
I'm not prepared for that. I wasn't taught how to do that. But you're there. So you pick them up, and you put them in a body bag, pieces by pieces, and you go back to your unit, and you stand inside your room. And they're like, "You're going on a patrol, come on." You're like, "Hang on a minute. Let me think about what I just did here." I just put six American guys in damn body bags. Nobody's prepared for that. Nobody's prepared for that thing to blow up on the side of the road. You're talking, and you're driving, and then something blows up, and the next thing you know, two of your guys are missing their faces. They just want you to get up the next day and go, go, let's do it again, you're a soldier. Yeah, I got the soldier part, OK?

Good read @jhungary

@levina I guess we civilians treat deaths much more casually than by a some one from military........ When i read your post,i remembered one personal experience, My dad walked away from the hall when the bugle was playing on TV, this was for few soldiers who lost their life in a terrorist attack..... I asked him Whats wrong? The answer was...... That Bugle and its tune..... Cant stand it.....

 

[Levina]

@levina I guess we civilians treat deaths much more casually than by a some one from military........ .

I call myself only a half civilian.
But you're right that a soldier takes death more seriously and its often related to the reason behind the death, most of the deaths a soldiers sees 're not normal deaths. The surfeit of violent deaths make 'em more sensitive, just my opinion.

When i read your post,i remembered one personal experience, My dad walked away from the hall when the bugle was playing on TV, this was for few soldiers who lost their life in a terrorist attack..... I asked him Whats wrong? The answer was...... That Bugle and its tune..... Cant stand it....

I concur!

 

[jhungary]

As always a thought provoking article Gary!
Just yesterday on this forum I had to lambast a guy who was advocating the use of tac-nukes, galoots like him dont understand what a war is or what its consequences 're.
Soldiers like the rest of us 're normal human beings.
They know they 've to kill somebody but they 're not killing machines, which is what they've been used as all these years.
I'm just posting an excerpt from what I read...

One night they said to me, "Sgt. Goss, gather your best guys."
I say, "Where we going?"
They say, "Don't worry about it, just come on."
So we get in the car and go. We drive three blocks away, and there's six dead soldiers on the ground. They say, "You're casualty collecting tonight."
I'm not prepared for that. I wasn't taught how to do that. But you're there. So you pick them up, and you put them in a body bag, pieces by pieces, and you go back to your unit, and you stand inside your room. And they're like, "You're going on a patrol, come on." You're like, "Hang on a minute. Let me think about what I just did here." I just put six American guys in damn body bags. Nobody's prepared for that. Nobody's prepared for that thing to blow up on the side of the road. You're talking, and you're driving, and then something blows up, and the next thing you know, two of your guys are missing their faces. They just want you to get up the next day and go, go, let's do it again, you're a soldier. Yeah, I got the soldier part, OK?

PS:
I would not use soldiers and saints as synonyms though.

heh, i dont plan on putting saints and soldiers as the same category, infact, they are opposite, and thats why i wrote this.

In fact, soldiers are devil, we are evil, you will have to let your darkside out if you want to survive in battlefield. You have to do just absolutely anything you can or you cant imagine just for you to survive.

and everybody are the same from the lowly private to a 4 stars general, you may do a different job but the darkness inside of you are the same. Then when this consume you, you would have been num about what you do, and what you are doing is not necessity anymore, is something you just have to do.

We are taking about killing a person to survive as you go drink a cup of water when you are thristy or you go get something to eat when you are hungry. Then when time has come and you put that all behind you. And you look at yourselves, and you will notice a stranger stare back at you.

Good read @jhungary

@levina I guess we civilians treat deaths much more casually than by a some one from military........ When i read your post,i remembered one personal experience, My dad walked away from the hall when the bugle was playing on TV, this was for few soldiers who lost their life in a terrorist attack..... I asked him Whats wrong? The answer was...... That Bugle and its tune..... Cant stand it.....

thanks

 

[Aepsilons]

Great thread @jhungary !

 

[Slav Defence]

@jhungary

I am very pleased to see that you have decided to answer all these questions which are raised in our minds-
A layman like me also ponders over the role of soldier during warfare.I still remember that event in which I was welcoming freshly promoted military professionals stating that they are "Axis vertebrae"
I remember your response:"lol,we are axis of evil!"
No doubt soldiers are trained to take a life-but why on earth do they take life? well they do that to "save" a life.
I believe that a soldier can be considered as "anti-biotic drug" as it kills a live to save a life
I really want to ask a question-let me introduce myself to you-
I am a student of genetics, following master's program.We are taught to understand human "blue prints" for us humans can be defined as "bio-reactors"
I am a Muslim as well,and trust me when a Muslim studies human blue prints and reads Quran with intention to understand meaning and correct context behind it (and co-relates human soul enclosed in chemical body ie human formation)then he/she becomes more sensitive and soft hearted-(that is my xp )
Why I am telling you all this? I don't know-maybe I am trying to make you understand "my mentality" so that it become easy for you to understand my context behind the question.
So,yes you are built to kill and not only you anyone serving in field as military officer is trained to kill-
However, what difference a soldiers do feel when they encounters a well equipped terrorist /shoot a 5 year old kid-this is not a scenario concerned with bombardment but the situation which is being faced by them on ground-
My second question is,why unequipped women and children are raped during battle field when they are not recognized as threat-
Why do we read cases everyday in which security agency officers are found guilty in murdering or raping unequipped civies just b/c they belong to opponent nations?Please,it is a general question and such cases are observed all around the world.
@Neptune I would love to take your input as well

Regards

 

[MastanKhan]

@jhungary
My second question is,why unequipped women and children are raped during battle field when they are not recognized as threat-
Why do we read cases everyday in which security agency officers are found guilty in murdering or raping unequipped civies just b/c they belong to opponent nations?Please,it is a general question and such cases are observed all around the world.
@Neptune I would love to take your input as well

Regards

Hi,

Women and children are raped for a particular reason---to totally degrade and annihilate the enemy men's psyche. It is to show the enemy men---how helpless they are that their women and children can be molested at will anywhere anytime without any recourse---it is to show how helpless the muslim God is and how strong the christian God is---it is to show the impotency of the enemy's soldier at protecting his GER---.

 

[Developereo]

Hi,

Women and children are raped for a particular reason---to totally degrade and annihilate the enemy men's psyche. It is to show the enemy men---how helpless they are that their women and children can be molested at will anywhere anytime without any recourse---it is to show how helpless the muslim God is and how strong the christian God is---it is to show the impotency of the enemy's soldier at protecting his GER---.

The UN recognizes rape as a deliberate weapon of war.

Rape: Weapon of war

 

[Slav Defence]

The UN recognizes rape as a deliberate weapon of war.

Rape: Weapon of war

Excellent,
I also do not understand that how it could be used as a weapon in the first place?
For example,if a country attacks another on basis of their objective that "they are harbouring terrorists" or using biological weapons and by definition they describe terrorism as brutal murder or rape of women and children-Then their soldiers "descend on ground" and began to repeat same with their women and children-don't you think that instead of breaking their psyche, you are strengthening their "agenda" and instead of weakening their ideology, you are helping it actually to be more viral?
Isn't better way was to kill the men,take women and children and manipulate their psyche by treating them nicely!
Wouldn't it be the most better way to weaken overall agenda of your enemy?
See,it is simple. You claim that your enemy is a threat to your lives but then you attack them and only make selective targets after bombarding while hostaging women and children and manipulate them psychologically by showing them that you are not a threat to their lives.You are making them helpless and helping them simultaneously.
I do not understand again that how on earth rape can be considered as a weapon when the concept of "comfort woman" is considered as a crime,despite of this fact that it has various psychological benefits !

Here is another interesting read:

Japanese war crimes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Some interesting extracts:
"The same day, veteran soldier Yasuji Kanekoadmitted to The Washington Post that the women "cried out, but it didn't matter to us whether the women lived or died. We were the emperor's soldiers. Whether in military brothels or in the villages, we raped without reluctance."
On 17 April 2007, Yoshimi and another historian, Hirofumi Hayashi, announced the discovery, in the archives of the Tokyo Trials, of seven official documents suggesting that Imperial military forces, such as the Tokeitai (naval secret police), directly coerced women to work in frontline brothels in China, Indochina and Indonesia. These documents were initially made public at the war crimes trial.

Main article: War on Terror
In the aftermath of the September 11, 2001 attacks, the U.S. Government adopted several new measures in the classification and treatment of prisoners captured in the War on Terror, including applying the status of unlawful combatant to some prisoners, conducting extraordinary renditions, and using enhanced interrogation methods. Human Rights Watch and others claimed the measures were illegal under the Geneva Conventions

A presidential memorandum of September 7, 2002 authorized U.S. interrogators of prisoners captured in Afghanistan to deny the prisoners basic protections required by the Geneva Conventions, and thus according to Jordan J. Paust, professor of law and formerly a member of the faculty of theJudge Advocate General's School, "necessarily authorized and ordered violations of the Geneva Conventions, which are war crimes." Based on the president's memorandum, U.S. personnel carried out cruel and inhumane treatment on the prisoners, which necessarily means that the president's memorandum was a plan to violate the Geneva Convention, and such a plan constitutes a war crime under the Geneva Conventions, according to Professor Paust.

Alberto Gonzales and others argued that detainees should be considered "unlawful combatants" and as such not be protected by the Geneva Conventions in multiple memoranda regarding these perceived legal gray areas.
On April 14, 2006, Human Rights Watch said that Secretary Donald Rumsfeld could be criminally liable for his alleged involvement in the abuse ofMohammad al-Qahtani

Here is another interesting read:

The law of war is a legal term of art that refers to the aspect of public international law concerning acceptable justifications to engage in war (jus ad bellum) and the limits to acceptable wartime conduct (jus in bello or International humanitarian law).

Among other issues, modern laws of war addressdeclarations of war, acceptance of surrender and the treatment of prisoners of war; military necessity, along with distinction andproportionality; and the prohibition of certainweapons that may cause unnecessary suffering.[1]

The law of war is considered distinct from other bodies of law—such as the domestic law of a particular belligerent to a conflict—that may provide additional legal limits to the conduct or justification of war.
Some of the central principles underlying laws of war are:

• Wars should be limited to achieving the political goals that started the war (e.g., territorial control) and should not include unnecessary destruction.
• Wars should be brought to an end as quickly as possible.
• People and property that do not contribute to the war effort should be protected against unnecessary destruction and hardship.

To this end, laws of war are intended to mitigate the hardships of war by:

• Protecting both combatants and non-combatants from unnecessary suffering.
• Safeguarding certain fundamental human rightsof persons who fall into the hands of the enemy, particularly prisoners of war, the wounded and sick, and civilians.
• Facilitating the restoration of peace

Remedies for violations

During conflict, punishment for violating the laws of war may consist of a specific, deliberate and limited violation of the laws of war in reprisal.

After a conflict has ended, persons who have committed or ordered any breach of the laws of war, especially atrocities, may be held individually accountable for war crimes through process of law. Also, nations which signed the Geneva Conventions are required to search for, then try and punish, anyone who has committed or ordered certain "grave breaches" of the laws of war. (See GC III, Art. 129 and Art. 130.)

Combatants who break specific provisions of the laws of war are termed unlawful combatants. Unlawful combatants who have been captured may lose the status and protections that would otherwise be afforded to them as prisoners of war, but only after a "competent tribunal" has determined that they are not eligible for POW status (See, e.g., GC III Art 5.) At that point, an unlawful combatant may be interrogated, tried, imprisoned, and even executed for their violation of the laws of war pursuant to the domestic law of their captor, but they are still entitled to certain additional protections, including that they be "treated with humanity and, in case of trial, shall not be deprived of the rights of fair and regular trial." (GC IV Art 5.)

For example in 1976, foreign soldiers fighting for the National Liberation Front of Angola (FNLA) were captured by the People's Movement for the Liberation of Angola (MPLA) in the civil war that broke out when Angola gained independence fromPortugal in 1975. In the Luanda Trial, after "a regularly constituted court" found them guilty of being unlawful mercenaries, three Britons and an American were shot by a firing squad on July 10, 1976. Nine others were imprisoned for terms of 16 to 30 years.

 

[Developereo]

Isn't better way was to kill the men,take women and children and manipulate their psyche by treating them nicely!

It serves as a warning and example to other potential enemies: this is what will happen to your daughters, sisters, wives and mothers.

Most societies have a bravado about men fighting and even dying honorably, but they are very sensitive about what happens to women. Even some Western countries are a bit squeamish about women soldiers in front lines.

Degrading the enemies' women is considered the ultimate humiliation of a nation.

 

[Slav Defence]

I simply believe that indeed soldiers are built to kill,but they kill to save lives. It is government's job to assure implementation of laws of war as well as trials and punishment in case of violations must be followed strictly.
We claim to live in modern era-so we must think at advanced levels and seek more possible and effective ways for not only to defeat our enemies morally and psychologically but assuring at least 40% implementation of human right laws.
Regards

It serves as a warning and example to other potential enemies: this is what will happen to your daughters, sisters, wives and mothers.

Most societies have a bravado about men fighting and even dying honorably, but they are very sensitive about what happens to women. Even some Western countries are a bit squeamish about women soldiers in front lines.

Degrading the enemies' women is considered the ultimate humiliation of a nation.

Definitely sir definitely!
But do you think that they will be afraid of such action? This will not only increase hate against the doer but also they will make preparations and built weapons more passionately.Their moral will be increased and their objective will be "justified" .The doer shall miss not only warfare on ground but its own soldiers will be suffering of psychological disorders (might be possible).
Also,the doer country will lose international support while victim shall gain support and pressure will be build up against the doer country.
Regards

 

[jhungary]

@jhungary

I am very pleased to see that you have decided to answer all these questions which are raised in our minds-
A layman like me also ponders over the role of soldier during warfare.I still remember that event in which I was welcoming freshly promoted military professionals stating that they are "Axis vertebrae"
I remember your response:"lol,we are axis of evil!"
No doubt soldiers are trained to take a life-but why on earth do they take life? well they do that to "save" a life.
I believe that a soldier can be considered as "anti-biotic drug" as it kills a live to save a life
I really want to ask a question-let me introduce myself to you-
I am a student of genetics, following master's program.We are taught to understand human "blue prints" for us humans can be defined as "bio-reactors"
I am a Muslim as well,and trust me when a Muslim studies human blue prints and reads Quran with intention to understand meaning and correct context behind it (and co-relates human soul enclosed in chemical body ie human formation)then he/she becomes more sensitive and soft hearted-(that is my xp )
Why I am telling you all this? I don't know-maybe I am trying to make you understand "my mentality" so that it become easy for you to understand my context behind the question.
So,yes you are built to kill and not only you anyone serving in field as military officer is trained to kill-
However, what difference a soldiers do feel when they encounters a well equipped terrorist /shoot a 5 year old kid-this is not a scenario concerned with bombardment but the situation which is being faced by them on ground-
My second question is,why unequipped women and children are raped during battle field when they are not recognized as threat-
Why do we read cases everyday in which security agency officers are found guilty in murdering or raping unequipped civies just b/c they belong to opponent nations?Please,it is a general question and such cases are observed all around the world.
@Neptune I would love to take your input as well

Regards

lol, there goes my analogy.

There are saints and there are soldiers.

No doubt I did some serious BS thing, and I can tell you this, doing those stuff is not the major issue here, but doing those stuff and feeling normal, even imprint, is the major problem I am going on about.

Basically shits happens, doesn't matter if you are the one that have to deal with, or you are the one that just got dumped with, but still that's your (the soldier) problem. You can go on bitch about that or piss about that or what not, at the end of the day, no matter how you feel, you are the one who need to go thru with it, nobody else, because if you didn't, then the whole system fail. You can say you are forced to deal with it, but yes, it's your job, and you expected that when you sign up.

Now, to answer your question.

For question 1, No different. A man is a man, A child is just a smaller man.

Its seems cold aint it? But this is what you must believe, and that belief is simply "They are not human, as much as you do." Remember in my last piece I said, in war, you expected to be dead, and if you are alive after your tour, then you must done something really wrong.

What you are doing is to put down your humanity for once, and try to pick it back up in 1 year time. You have to turn into a zombie like creature, for you not to feel, not to ask, not to speak of anything, but simply follow your order. If you have hope, or humanity, even with just a little bit left in you, then you will start questioning, and put in your own judgment. Which then you start question the motive, and finally, you started questioning the system.

Then one day, when you are thinking about that, that would be the day you get shot.

Now, try to imagine this, if you put a person who is full of life, love life and love everything, into a battlefield, would you think he will kill other people??

So, for a soldier to function, everyone that is not ours, is a target, a man is a man, a woman is a weaker man, and a child is a smaller man. Cos you cannot afford to think otherwise. Or else you would not be able to kill anyone if you start putting faces and name to go with people you shot.

To the second question, cos they are not human, that is the whole point I am telling you about, in war, you need to be able to dehumanise any person and yourselves, and that would mean sometime, things can and did gone too far.

I once heard a transcript form a soldier in Vietnam on rape and homicide charge in a court martial, when asked, why do you see the need to rape a 8 years old girl when you can choose an adult? His answer was. Cos the kids is easier. They don't fight back that much.

Now, I am not condoning what he'd done, but I understand his logic. And you can't be a human and a soldier when you are fighting a war.

I simply believe that indeed soldiers are built to kill,but they kill to save lives. It is government's job to assure implementation of laws of war as well as trials and punishment in case of violations must be followed strictly.
We claim to live in modern era-so we must think at advanced levels and seek more possible and effective ways for not only to defeat our enemies morally and psychologically but assuring at least 40% implementation of human right laws.
Regards
Definitely sir definitely!
But do you think that they will be afraid of such action? This will not only increase hate against the doer but also they will make preparations and built weapons more passionately.Their moral will be increased and their objective will be "justified" .The doer shall miss not only warfare on ground but its own soldiers will be suffering of psychological disorders (might be possible).
Also,the doer country will lose international support while victim shall gain support and pressure will be build up against the doer country.
Regards

You guys think too much.

In fact, there is a rumour that the US recruit people directly from prison to fight in Vietnam war, those are rapist and child molester and some sick psycho wrack job. And the Government recruit them to do what they did to get in prison over there, for PsyOp.

Most soldier did War crime simply because they believe they can get away with it. And when you have the power to kill, raping people or stealing does not seems like any of a big deal.

And indeed, soldier train to kill, and most likely people you kill save lifes, that's what you are going to think and that's what you need to think at the end of the day. You have to think that each kill is just. Be that an insurgent with suicide vest or a 5 years old playing in the playground. It's not the reason we kills raise the question here, but the morality of the action behind each kills.

And the more you kill, the more you numb, and in the end of the day, you would just not think about that, and simply go ahead and kill that person just like that

 

[Slav Defence]

lol, there goes my analogy.

There are saints and there are soldiers.

No doubt I did some serious BS thing, and I can tell you this, doing those stuff is not the major issue here, but doing those stuff and feeling normal, even imprint, is the major problem I am going on about.

Basically shits happens, doesn't matter if you are the one that have to deal with, or you are the one that just got dumped with, but still that's your (the soldier) problem. You can go on bitch about that or piss about that or what not, at the end of the day, no matter how you feel, you are the one who need to go thru with it, nobody else, because if you didn't, then the whole system fail. You can say you are forced to deal with it, but yes, it's your job, and you expected that when you sign up.

Now, to answer your question.

For question 1, No different. A man is a man, A child is just a smaller man.

Its seems cold aint it? But this is what you must believe, and that belief is simply "They are not human, as much as you do." Remember in my last piece I said, in war, you expected to be dead, and if you are alive after your tour, then you must done something really wrong.

What you are doing is to put down your humanity for once, and try to pick it back up in 1 year time. You have to turn into a zombie like creature, for you not to feel, not to ask, not to speak of anything, but simply follow your order. If you have hope, or humanity, even with just a little bit left in you, then you will start questioning, and put in your own judgment. Which then you start question the motive, and finally, you started questioning the system.

Then one day, when you are thinking about that, that would be the day you get shot.

Now, try to imagine this, if you put a person who is full of life, love life and love everything, into a battlefield, would you think he will kill other people??

So, for a soldier to function, everyone that is not ours, is a target, a man is a man, a woman is a weaker man, and a child is a smaller man. Cos you cannot afford to think otherwise. Or else you would not be able to kill anyone if you start putting faces and name to go with people you shot.

To the second question, cos they are not human, that is the whole point I am telling you about, in war, you need to be able to dehumanise any person and yourselves, and that would mean sometime, things can and did gone too far.

I once heard a transcript form a soldier in Vietnam on rape and homicide charge in a court martial, when asked, why do you see the need to rape a 8 years old girl when you can choose an adult? His answer was. Cos the kids is easier. They don't fight back that much.

Now, I am not condoning what he'd done, but I understand his logic. And you can't be a human and a soldier when you are fighting a war.

So,we were on wrong track for the whole time.
We are building a psyche of a man to kill and we expect him at a same time to learn to differentiate b/w armed and unarmed civies.
Okay,I got it-
So,we need to workout on training programs of soldiers not on soldiers.

lol, there goes my analogy.

There are saints and there are soldiers.

No doubt I did some serious BS thing, and I can tell you this, doing those stuff is not the major issue here, but doing those stuff and feeling normal, even imprint, is the major problem I am going on about.

Basically shits happens, doesn't matter if you are the one that have to deal with, or you are the one that just got dumped with, but still that's your (the soldier) problem. You can go on bitch about that or piss about that or what not, at the end of the day, no matter how you feel, you are the one who need to go thru with it, nobody else, because if you didn't, then the whole system fail. You can say you are forced to deal with it, but yes, it's your job, and you expected that when you sign up.

Now, to answer your question.

For question 1, No different. A man is a man, A child is just a smaller man.

Its seems cold aint it? But this is what you must believe, and that belief is simply "They are not human, as much as you do." Remember in my last piece I said, in war, you expected to be dead, and if you are alive after your tour, then you must done something really wrong.

What you are doing is to put down your humanity for once, and try to pick it back up in 1 year time. You have to turn into a zombie like creature, for you not to feel, not to ask, not to speak of anything, but simply follow your order. If you have hope, or humanity, even with just a little bit left in you, then you will start questioning, and put in your own judgment. Which then you start question the motive, and finally, you started questioning the system.

Then one day, when you are thinking about that, that would be the day you get shot.

Now, try to imagine this, if you put a person who is full of life, love life and love everything, into a battlefield, would you think he will kill other people??

So, for a soldier to function, everyone that is not ours, is a target, a man is a man, a woman is a weaker man, and a child is a smaller man. Cos you cannot afford to think otherwise. Or else you would not be able to kill anyone if you start putting faces and name to go with people you shot.

To the second question, cos they are not human, that is the whole point I am telling you about, in war, you need to be able to dehumanise any person and yourselves, and that would mean sometime, things can and did gone too far.

I once heard a transcript form a soldier in Vietnam on rape and homicide charge in a court martial, when asked, why do you see the need to rape a 8 years old girl when you can choose an adult? His answer was. Cos the kids is easier. They don't fight back that much.

Now, I am not condoning what he'd done, but I understand his logic. And you can't be a human and a soldier when you are fighting a war.



You guys think too much.

In fact, there is a rumour that the US recruit people directly from prison to fight in Vietnam war, those are rapist and child molester and some sick psycho wrack job. And the Government recruit them to do what they did to get in prison over there, for PsyOp.

Most soldier did War crime simply because they believe they can get away with it. And when you have the power to kill, raping people or stealing does not seems like any of a big deal.

And indeed, soldier train to kill, and most likely people you kill save lifes, that's what you are going to think and that's what you need to think at the end of the day. You have to think that each kill is just. Be that an insurgent with suicide vest or a 5 years old playing in the playground. It's not the reason we kills raise the question here, but the morality of the action behind each kills.

And the more you kill, the more you numb, and in the end of the day, you would just not think about that, and simply go ahead and kill that person just like that

I agree with you at this point-So ah,finally it"s govt job in planning institution not yours to think .Plus,your comment also answers perfectly that laws are actually built to encounter "getting away with " psyche.
You know what, you are correct-
How do you expect a criminal which is brought from prison for not to go wild and kill?
Then why these laws are built to fool laymen like us!
Lol,lol

Whatever

 

[jhungary]

So,we were on wrong track for the whole time.
We are building a psyche of a man to kill and we expect him at a same time to learn to differentiate b/w armed and unarmed civies.
Okay,I got it-
So,we need to workout on training programs of soldiers not on soldiers.

lol, no, actually, truth is very far from that.

What I tell you is the psyche (Did I spell that right?)

We do train to Identify threats, but what say a man with AK-47 is more of a threat than a 5 years old kids holding a football in the street?

Many many times, kids are used as a tool of war, and things may not be as simply as you seems. There was a story about how a soldier need to kill an unarmed 13 years old kids, because he is feeding info and act as a spotter to a nearby mortar pits.

There were story a woman got hired by the local camp canteen pull out a 9mm and start shooting officer after she finish tidying up the dishes.

We do not shoot kids like they are firecrackers, but when you have to shoot one, what kind of process gone thru your mind? And my last post is exactly just that