SAC - FC-31 Grey Falcon Stealth aircraft for PAF : Updates & Debate

[PakAlp]

We discussed this many times, the J31 fighter will not be ready till 2030, it only has 2 prototypes. The chinese airforce at the moment are concentrating on the J20 fighter and this is why J31 project has gone quiet, it could also be possible they are making another fighter jet ie J35. Whichever fighter it is, it won't be ready till 2030.

Pakistan will not induct 5th generation jet till 2030, project AZM will be J31 or J35 with Pakistani specs, the 2nd 5th generation we are looking at is Tfx which also won't be available till 2030.

This is not an issue because India will induct 5th generation in a decade time so PAF plan is in force already. To counter current su30Mki, Tejas, Mig29 and Rafael, we have f16 upgraded, f16 block 52s, jf17 block 2s and latest Block 3. This will definitely give us enough power to counter any attack, also if we are lucky we could also purchase more brand new f16s or 2nd hand ones.

 

[ziaulislam]

We discussed this many times, the J31 fighter will not be ready till 2030, it only has 2 prototypes. The chinese airforce at the moment are concentrating on the J20 fighter and this is why J31 project has gone quiet, it could also be possible they are making another fighter jet ie J35. Whichever fighter it is, it won't be ready till 2030.

Pakistan will not induct 5th generation jet till 2030, project AZM will be J31 or J35 with Pakistani specs, the 2nd 5th generation we are looking at is Tfx which also won't be available till 2030.

This is not an issue because India will induct 5th generation in a decade time so PAF plan is in force already. To counter current su30Mki, Tejas, Mig29 and Rafael, we have f16 upgraded, f16 block 52s, jf17 block 2s and latest Block 3. This will definitely give us enough power to counter any attack, also if we are lucky we could also purchase more brand new f16s or 2nd hand ones.

Unless PAF gets block 70/aim120d it will be at disadvantage in vis to vis competition with rafale

It will therefore need something by 2025..
I think PAF should wait till j35/j31 situation clears up but as soon as something mature (5th gen)is available it should order it to counter the IAF..
IAF wont stop with 36 rafale..expect incremental orders to ultimately around 100-120 over next 10 years

 

[kursed]

It will be tough. Would require innovative counter measures. On the other hand, India can pursue the F-35 without Pakistan acquiring any new platform either.

Lets say India does another failed Balakot attack 2.0 .. And the Rafael doesn't live up to its promised dominance.... They will go for F-35.

Taking a reactive approach will not provide Pakistan with the security and defense it seeks.

We'd be glad they opted for getting S400, then. =)

 

[volatile]

I think there is another view of looking into this .PAF if today gets a chance of matured 5th generation platform they will go for it irrespective of IAF decision. FC-31 has its own merits and demerits .

Demerits of FC-31
FC-31 is untested /immature platform just like F-35 even they had F22 examples and life cycle still is undergoing lots of technological incorporation .So FC-31 being derivative of F-35 will require serious R&D input and with Chinese Air force no interest it will more be a tech demonstrator IMO unless foreign player pool into R&D with Shenyang Corp .
More importantly Rd-93/WE-13 series are generation below the 5th generation stealth requirement so it will be tough sell unless a truly mature engine is developed (Both Russia/China are struggling in this currently)

Merits of FC-31
Stealth design and being derivative of F35 many manufacturing challenges have overcome.
Rd-93 engines have wide range of operators e.g PAF with overhauling facility and 200+ examples flying can have a excellent platform absorption to current fleet and infrastructure.

IMO
For my stealth fan boys stealth is part of system not the system .So dreaming of taking selfies and flying to Delhi alone is quite chest thumping but in reality 5th Generation roles are different . PAF has clearly mentioned that they are looking to skip 5th Generation platform and Azm will be 5.5 Gen platform so common sense says let the technology mature enough to proceed further .By heart we should have 2 squadrons of these birds to supplement roles and take burden off from F16 and trust me when i say this .US/Europe will consider giving us 5th Generation if we move towards Chinese /Russian solution oldest trick of the book

 

[Pandora]

Any off the shelf purchase will be a curse for Pakistan. Why do you people think Pakistan opted for JF 17 despite having offers of F16 and other western jets. There is no point in inducting a jet which we cant even at least maintain on our own. If Pakistan is to induct FC 31 lets say 5 years from now after putting an order today how will that benefit us? Out next gen jet is meant to replace F16s which means we have plenty of time and no need to rush. Opting for a foreign jet now would mean destroying our own Jet fighter industry which we spent billions to raise ground up. Even if its another 10-15 years we should wait for project Azm bcz there is no such thing as a reliable partner. What if we come at odds with China in next decade our FC31s will rot like a hunk of junk without proper spares just as it happened with F16s.

 

[ziaulislam]

Any off the shelf purchase will be a curse for Pakistan. Why do you people think Pakistan opted for JF 17 despite having offers of F16 and other western jets. There is no point in inducting a jet which we cant even at least maintain on our own. If Pakistan is to induct FC 31 lets say 5 years from now after putting an order today how will that benefit us? Out next gen jet is meant to replace F16s which means we have plenty of time and no need to rush. Opting for a foreign jet now would mean destroying our own Jet fighter industry which we spent billions to raise ground up. Even if its another 10-15 years we should wait for project Azm bcz there is no such thing as a reliable partner. What if we come at odds with China in next decade our FC31s will rot like a hunk of junk without proper spares just as it happened with F16s.

Becasue airforce is one thing u need parity with your foe..its navy land forces u can compromise but airforce ..no...

Azm is 20 years away 36-48 5th gen fighters wont hurt azm but will maintain parity with india.

Instead army could have waited in buying VT4s or t129 or so many other deals and worked on domestic solution for tanks arterllery etc..much easier then building a fifth gen fighter

We are doing it other way around
First we neeto focus on guns, bigger guns(arterllery), EW, weapons, avionics, trainers and then jump to the impossible ...
just like turkey did

 

[redtom]

There should be no FC-31 purchase by Pakistan, no matter what people here have been recommending, until PLAAF and/or PLAN have already purchased a few hundred of these already and they have been in service with the Chinese for a decade. Why should PAF be the sole or the first customer of a jet that it had no stake in, not to mention might not even meet the Chinese standards much less the PAF ones.
Add on the high cost due to non-existent supply chain set up and no economies of scale, we need to stay away from it as if it has STDs and Covid 19
For all intents and purposes, this is still a technology demonstrator and not an actual operational aircraft with only two airframes flying for a number of years already.

China may not purchase the medium 5th generation fighter, the FC31 is highly likely not to be purchased, but this does not mean that the FC31 is not suitable for PAF.Because China needs long-range fighters, the PAF does not.
PAF attack on New Delhi only takes 400 km and mumbai only takes 700 km. The U.S. base is more than 1,000 km away from China. So PLAF prefers long range fighters like J16,J20 .

The BEST option for the PAF is to use an advanced medium fighter alongside a multi-role light fighter. FC31 and JF17 BLK3 are good choices.Therefore, I suggest that PAF get in touch with THE FC31 project as soon as possible to make the design direction of FC31 meet the requirements of PAF, or make AZM integrate with FC31.

 

[Pandora]

Becasue airforce is one thing u need parity with your foe..its navy land forces u can compromise but airforce ..no...

Azm is 20 years away 36-48 5th gen fighters wont hurt azm but will maintain parity with india.

Instead army could have waited in buying VT4s or t129 or so many other deals and worked on domestic solution for tanks arterllery etc..much easier then building a fifth gen fighter

We are doing it other way around
First we neeto focus on guns, bigger guns(arterllery), EW, weapons, avionics, trainers and then jump to the impossible ...
just like turkey did

Off the shelf purchases for once will need lots of money. We havnt even started inducting JF-17 block 3 and you want to Pay for another Jet fighter. It would effectively mean the end of thunder production line due to our limited financial resources. We have already bought more than enough weapons on credit so unless you want our country to go bankrupt lets give it a rest to Purchase of weapons on credit. Our focus should be on JF Thunder so that at least we can first replace all of our vintage aircraft. Even our older Blk 1s are due to upgrade so lets keep our priorities straight. Lets not jump so high that we fall down on our flat faces rather than on our feet. China for decades had been on a technological deficit with US but they built their industry up by supporting their local initiatives rather than going on buying spree from other countries. For decade US flaunted stealth tech over others but did you see china or Russia jumping up and down to gain parity?

We are not jumping to impossible but rather taking next natural step in fighter jet production. Pakistan air force built aviation city for the sole purpose of our next gen plans. We have learnt a lot from our experience with Thunders. Also please dont mix up procurement plans of Army and other forces.

 

[Metal 0-1]

No one knows about the capability of these NOT SO 5th Gen Stealth Jets.

PAF should focus on on incorporating western tech on AZM with Turkey's help... We don't need these...

 

[LeGenD]

I think there is another view of looking into this .PAF if today gets a chance of matured 5th generation platform they will go for it irrespective of IAF decision. FC-31 has its own merits and demerits .

Demerits of FC-31
FC-31 is untested /immature platform just like F-35 even they had F22 examples and life cycle still is undergoing lots of technological incorporation .So FC-31 being derivative of F-35 will require serious R&D input and with Chinese Air force no interest it will more be a tech demonstrator IMO unless foreign player pool into R&D with Shenyang Corp .
More importantly Rd-93/WE-13 series are generation below the 5th generation stealth requirement so it will be tough sell unless a truly mature engine is developed (Both Russia/China are struggling in this currently)

Merits of FC-31
Stealth design and being derivative of F35 many manufacturing challenges have overcome.
Rd-93 engines have wide range of operators e.g PAF with overhauling facility and 200+ examples flying can have a excellent platform absorption to current fleet and infrastructure.

IMO
For my stealth fan boys stealth is part of system not the system .So dreaming of taking selfies and flying to Delhi alone is quite chest thumping but in reality 5th Generation roles are different . PAF has clearly mentioned that they are looking to skip 5th Generation platform and Azm will be 5.5 Gen platform so common sense says let the technology mature enough to proceed further .By heart we should have 2 squadrons of these birds to supplement roles and take burden off from F16 and trust me when i say this .US/Europe will consider giving us 5th Generation if we move towards Chinese /Russian solution oldest trick of the book

Sir,

FC-31 is woefully inadequate and underdeveloped platform in comparison to F-35 in its current form; only 2 prototypes to show thus far and even the 2nd prototype look too 'clean' and with much inferior engine to be taken seriously. FC-31 is more of a concept demonstrator than being a warfighting machine in its current form.

Hundreds of F-35 variants have been developed and tested by now; F-35A and F-35B are mature variants at Block-3F stage and battle-tested over a number of countries including in Syria since 2017. How can you miss so many news items and leaks in relation?

 

[Irfan Baloch]

I do feel it would Kickstart India into a rush acquisition of an FGFA, with the F-35 being a very likely candidate down the line. However, for now, unless India lets go of S400's, the F-35 is just a pipe dream

despite am aggressive nuclear program and nuclear weapons use policy the Indians got special waivers and support by west to join nuclear suppliers group ( only blocked temporarily by China)

and access to American weapons sales to Indian choosing. S400 issue will be happily ignored by Americans and they will convince Indians to buy the Jets.
It is the overall alignment and strategic partnerships that matter not a single weapon system.
Turkey got the boot from F35 prigram and bab from its sale despite being a NATO member, despite being the JSF program partner, despite going by the NATO charter which allows it to buy any defence system for its security.

India can get the same jet for breaking every single rule and reasons because Americans need it against China even if it gets SU 57 From Russia.

 

[SABRE]

This is extremely negative and cowardly approach.
There are chances that USA would give F 35 to India in any case.
Where would Pakistan stand then!!

Things are going to change because of China factor too.
For USA , Pakistan is not that important , but China certainly is.

As we all know, USA sees India as cows (Lambs not suitable for India. lolz ) to the slaughter.
USA will beef up India , to send them to the slaughter by the Chinese.

Thanks to the Indian purchase of the S-400, this is impossible. India can only opt for the Su-57 at this point.

In politics, domestic or international, there are no cowardice, only cautious calculations. The U.S. is almost always willing to create exceptions for India, even with the lack of quid pro quo from it. This is evinced by the U.S. lead NSG wavier for India even though India did not conclude contracts with any of the U.S. nuclear power plant vendors - leading to the eventual demise of some of them. Even as India went for Russian technologies the U.S. continued to relax its export control policies for it. The U.S. bureaucracy is of the belief that the U.S. should empower India unconditionally to counter China. I have met with some State Department officials and almost all of them seemed onboard on this strategy, either tacitly or explicitly. Their only challenger is the U.S. Congress. Someone in the bipartisan setup is bound to raise issues, whether out of their moralistic concerns or for the sake of opposition or because of some lobby's coaxing. If the U.S. government decides to offer F-35 to India there is a chance that some Congressional members would raise the issue of flaring arms race in South Asia - or at least, Pakistan would have some ground to convince them on that argument. But if Pakistan introduces FC-31 first, Congress might be easily convinced to approve F-35 for India. In the end, we would be facing a much more capable aircraft then FC-31. Bear in mind, Modi is not Vajpayee or Manmohan Singh or other previous Indian PMs who were unwilling to surrender their strategic autonomy to the U.S., even to counter China. He will sell it for F-35s in a blink.

 

[Figaro]

No one knows about the capability of these NOT SO 5th Gen Stealth Jets.

PAF should focus on on incorporating western tech on AZM with Turkey's help... We don't need these...

I would be very surprised if the AZM is better than the FC-31/J-35. Even if the reputation of SAC is not as good as CAC, it nonetheless still has decades of experience in fighter development. The FC-31 gets too much flak from both Chinese and Western audiences for many wrong reasons. We all will see next year how much the FC-31 has evolved in the last half decade.

In politics, domestic or international, there are no cowardice, only cautious calculations. The U.S. is almost always willing to create exceptions for India, even with the lack of quid pro quo from it. This is evinced by the U.S. lead NSG wavier for India even though India did not conclude contracts with any of the U.S. nuclear power plant vendors - leading to the eventual demise of some of them. Even as India went for Russian technologies the U.S. continued to relax its export control policies for it. The U.S. bureaucracy is of the belief that the U.S. should empower India unconditionally to counter China. I have met with some State Department officials and almost all of them seemed onboard on this strategy, either tacitly or explicitly. Their only challenger is the U.S. Congress. Someone in the bipartisan setup is bound to raise concerns, whether out of their moralistic concerns or for the sake of opposition or because of some lobby's coaxing. If the U.S. government decides to offer F-35 to India there is a chance that some Congressional members would raise the issue of flaring arms race in South Asia - or at least, Pakistan would have some ground to convince them on that argument. But if Pakistan introduces FC-31 first, there is virtually nothing that would stop Congress from approving F-35 for India. In the end, we would be facing a much more capable aircraft then FC-31. Bear in mind, Modi is not Vajpayee or Manmohan Singh or other previous Indian PMs who were unwilling to surrender their strategic autonomy to the U.S., even to counter China. He will sell it for F-35s in a blink.

Once again, I doubt the US cares enough about India to give it F-35s, especially when the S-400 is present. I could not imagine any scenario where the F-35 would be sold to India even if the PAF receives the FC-31. I am almost 100% sure India's 5th gen fighter is not going to be the F-35 but instead a fly away Su-57. There is just no way the US would sell their state of art fighter to a country with deep ties to Russian defense industry and one that possesses the S-400. Politics is one thing but national security is another.

 

[Vapour]

Disagree on many accounts.

A major point being that Pakistan should have the capability to produce own aircrafts, tanks, helicopters, ships, UCAVs etc. Once the industry and related factories are in place, Pakistan can produce weapons in capacity as required, otherwise allocate funds towards development of non-defence related projects in Pakistan for the betterment of own population, such as hospitals, pharmacies, schools, universities, disaster relief centres, roads etc as well as upgrade current infrastructure and facilities to international level. Indian weapons race in the region is never-ending and Pakistan's Government should look for a long term solution to address this issue.

Do you believe in a military solution to Kashmir?

Maybe not now, but as you mention, if investment in developing indigenous capability and production begins from now and we can produce weaponry at will across the spectrum, say, in 10-15 years time - PA would be in a position to deal with IOK?

 

[Hamza913]

Acquiring 36 of them would do nicely.