SAC - FC-31 Grey Falcon Stealth aircraft for PAF : Updates & Debate

[FaujHistorian]

I always wished that if we decided not to detonate the bomb then should have demanded 2 squadrons of F-15s from Clinton, he was already offering F-16s and Patriot batteries as a bribe for not going Nuclear.

world Knew we had the capability so I dont know we wont have lost any prestige (we paid too much for detonating due to sanctions).
even two such squadrons of these heavy jets primed for only one purpose and one purpose alone, intercept, air domination and killing every moving hostile plane in its range with no ground based multirole nonsense. (I wish)

still doable if such philosophy is applied on -11 Russian clones

Ab Puchtaa-ay kya ho-wat
jub chiryan chug ga-ayeen khait

 

[ali_raza]

Ab Puchtaa-ay kya ho-wat
jub chiryan chug ga-ayeen khait

not to mention some 3billion$ in 1998 aid from japan in case pakistan remain nuclear free.

 

[FaujHistorian]

not to mention some 3billion$ in 1998 aid from japan in case pakistan remain nuclear free.

For a moment even if we forget about such aid etc.

The biggest loss for Pakistan thanks to nukie crackers?

-- Flight of business and money FROM Pakistan.

So it was a double whammy.

But why do we care. We are bunch of emotional youthias at heart.

 

[The SC]

Hi,

2 sqdrn's of heavies is for the current situation----like the J11 variants or the J7 H B version or maybe maybe F15's.

J 31 is 6 to 10 years away. We have a current problem at hand that needs to be addressed as well.

Can they be leased? I mean the J-11s. F-15s I wish, and I have done extensive search but no one is offering them, even SA is upgrading its old fleet, and can not sell or lease them without US approval and we all know what that means for Pakistan.
Some experts were stating the the J-31 will be ready in 2 to 3 years, around the same time as the J-20.

 

[MastanKhan]

For a moment even if we forget about such aid etc.

The biggest loss for Pakistan thanks to nukie crackers?

-- Flight of business and money FROM Pakistan.

So it was a double whammy.

But why do we care. We are bunch of emotional youthias at heart.

Hi,

Flight of business and capital was due to bad mistake by our Dear Nawaz Sharif----when he put restriction on foreign currency----.

India was in a similar quandry---same issuesof sanctions----foreign exchange leaking like water gushing thru a sewer pipe----but then they decided---no---we will not put any restrains----the indian expats said we will stand up and deliver----I believe they delivered close to 20 billion dollars.

Pakistani expats said the same----but Nawz Sharif being the coward that he was----and his dear beloved Ishaq Dar----said no----stop the flow of foreign currency----.

We expats had the capacity to send in around 3 to 5 billion dollars at that time----. With 6 nuc's popping all the expats were running on a massive high---Nawaz Sharif just deflated our ego.

Now----as for the J 20----not being COST EFFECTIVE----since when heavy weapons which give you dominance over the enemy cost effective.

This truly is a golden oppurtunity for pakistan to get the J20----total air superiority in the arena---and then go for peace.

Pakistanis cannot cpomprehend how bad they have been screwed up by the PAF for delaying the procurement of an aircraft between 2002 and 2004. The JF 17 that they were showing their dependence on is still about 2 years away from its begining to show its true colors.

There are still some members around from 7---8 years ago when I used to emphasize how difficult it is to integrate a new aircraft in your air force----an aircraft that is brand new and nothing known about it----. I would give it a time of 6 to 10 years---.

The problem with paf's thinking was that it made the mistake of thinking that the other party was static in its procurement----well they were---thanks to Mr Singh---but he was just an election away for the change to come----.

They thought that they will develop this plane---keeping in view 'best case scenarios'----the fools never heard that you keep a worst case scenario in mind for a first time adventure----.

Today----we have an oppurtunity that has suddenly popped up from nowhere----we can again have parity with the enemy---actually we can have superioty----we need to make the decision to take on the short term goals on a fast track as well as long term goals.

Instead of going for 30 JF 17's----pak navy should go for 30 JH 7 B's---and 20 JF 17's---this gives us the time for some stability---JH 7 B is a heavy strike aircraft with reasonable legs----the second objective is long term goals----air superiority / air dominance is a must.

China understands this dillema very well----the last six months have been an eye opener for china----actually china has been shocked into a re-awakening---japan, vietnam, philipines and the insttigator of all---india----suddenly---they are slowly trying to put a net of containment around china----.

I think a lots of stuff will be coming china to pakistan for free or on extremely easy terms----. China is not going to take the threat of having vietnam armed by india real easy.

The paf will have to slow down on the Jf 17 and will have to find ways to get some J 20's---regardless of the costs----. We cannot live under the fear of a strike for ever---our economy cannot grow like that at all.

Paf's bad policies have made us negotiate from a position of weakness----we need to find a place to talk from a position of strenght----.

And to those pakistani admins, TT's and mods on this board who were nay sayers of Rafale----look where this aircraft stands today and look at the weapons package it has.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Hi,

Flight of business and capital was due to bad mistake by our Dear Nawaz Sharif----when he put restriction on foreign currency----.

India was in a similar quandry---same issuesof sanctions----foreign exchange leaking like water gushing thru a sewer pipe----but then they decided---no---we will not put any restrains----the indian expats said we will stand up and deliver----I believe they delivered close to 20 billion dollars.

Pakistani expats said the same----but Nawz Sharif being the coward that he was----and his dear beloved Ishaq Dar----said no----stop the flow of foreign currency----.

We expats had the capacity to send in around 3 to 5 billion dollars at that time----. With 6 nuc's popping all the expats were running on a massive high---Nawaz Sharif just deflated our ego.

Now----as for the J 20----not being COST EFFECTIVE----since when heavy weapons which give you dominance over the enemy cost effective.

This truly is a golden oppurtunity for pakistan to get the J20----total air superiority in the arena---and then go for peace.

Pakistanis cannot cpomprehend how bad they have been screwed up by the PAF for delaying the procurement of an aircraft between 2002 and 2004. The JF 17 that they were showing their dependence on is still about 2 years away from its begining to show its true colors.

There are still some members around from 7---8 years ago when I used to emphasize how difficult it is to integrate a new aircraft in your air force----an air force that is brand new and nothing known about it----. I would give it a time of 6 to 10 years---.

The problem with paf's thinking was that it made the mistake of thinking that the other party was static in its procurement----well they were---thanks to Mr Singh---but he was just an election away for the change to come----.

They thought that they will develop this plane---keeping in view 'best case scenarios'----the fools never heard that you keep a worst case scenario in mind for a first time adventure----.

Today----we have an oppurtunity that has suddenly popped up from nowhere----we can again have parity with the enemy---actually we can have superioty----we need to make the decision to take on the short term goals on a fast track as well as long term goals.

Instead of going for 30 JF 17's----pak navy should go for 30 JH 7 B's---and 20 JF 17's---this gives us the time for some stability---JH 7 B is a heavy strike aircraft with reasonable legs----the second objective is long term goals----air superiority / air dominance is a must.

China understands this dillema very well----the last six months have been an eye opener for china----actually china has been shocked into a re-awakening---japan, vietnam, philipines and the insttigator of all---india----suddenly---they are slowly trying to put a net of containment around china----.

I think a lots of stuff will be coming china to pakistan for free or on extremely easy terms----. China is not going to take the threat of having vietnam armed by india real easy.

The paf will have to slow down on the Jf 17 and will have to find ways to get some J 20's---regardless of the costs----. We cannot live under the fear of a strike for ever---our economy cannot grow like that at all.

Paf's bad policies have made us negotiate from a position of weakness----we need to find a place to talk from a position of strenght----.

And to those pakistani admins, TT's and mods on this board who were nay sayers of Rafale----look where this aircraft stands today and look at the weapons package it has.

Bhai I respect you.


it will be 1000 meter high $tupidity to compare India and Pakistan of the 1990s.

By comparing apples to oranges, you will always reach a wrong conclusion. Always!

 

[MastanKhan]

Bhai I respect you.


it will be 1000 meter high $tupidity to compare India and Pakistan of the 1990s.

By comparing apples to oranges, you will always reach a wrong conclusion. Always!

Hi,

What I was saying to you in part one was---that Nawaz did not have the courage to trust the loyalty of expats after the nuc test----. We would have delivered----but this idiot of his Ishaq Dar----drowned the nation----.

The rest of the post was to other readers.

 

[The SC]

I totally agree on the essence of the thought that Pakistan should go for Air supremacy for its peace of mind, and for seeking peace through deterrence if necessary.
I also like the idea of the heavy strike aircraft JH 7 B for the navy, if it is less expensive than the J-11, anyhow the best of the two.

 

[Bilal.]

The weapons load is too soon to tell. However, first shoot advantage it would have against most Indian platforms. Yet, I dont see that as a reason for purchase as much as the ability to attack within a dense air defence network with some impunity.

It would be able to take pot shots at enemy strike packages flying high and far with same impunity and maintain air superiority at least within our airspace.

 

[MastanKhan]

I always wished that if we decided not to detonate the bomb then should have demanded 2 squadrons of F-15s from Clinton, he was already offering F-16s and Patriot batteries as a bribe for not going Nuclear.

world Knew we had the capability so I dont know we wont have lost any prestige (we paid too much for detonating due to sanctions).
even two such squadrons of these heavy jets primed for only one purpose and one purpose alone, intercept, air domination and killing every moving hostile plane in its range with no ground based multirole nonsense. (I wish)

still doable if such philosophy is applied on -11 Russian clones

Hi,

At that time---Clinton was not honest t us---and Nawaz was a very weak PM___Clinton knew that. The only saving grace would have been----like I wrote earlier----not to have blocked the transfer of foreign exchange----. Nawaz killed the country---.

Here is the bottomline---pakistan was totally broke----so what was the big deal of taking a chance on its expats----. That is why I keep saying---Nawaz has always been a coward----and deals from a position from weakness---.

 

[tarrar]

Surely PAF will go for it & there are already reports that Pakistan is negotiating with China for J31.

 

[boke]

很高兴看到这样的新闻，实际上我认为巴基斯坦暂时不必在意这些还未真正确定的新闻报道，枭龙在中国国内看来也是相当不错的一款飞机，从现在已经公布的报道看，巴基斯坦对枭龙的改进还在深入，这说明巴基斯坦对这款飞机的掌握在不断加深，也说明这款飞机的升级改进潜力很大。巴基斯坦空军现在面临的压力比较大，应该先满足自身需要，然后才能全力进攻国际市场，至于现在日常宣传，完全可以当做是预热。我希望巴基斯坦能把枭龙改进成三代半战机，这样就能自我满足来自印度和西方战机的威胁了。好处就是，巴基斯坦可以自己生产和升级这款战机，而不是只能依靠国外，这样不管什么时候都不会被人卡脖子！

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Going back to Clinton----he was just toying with Nawaz-----the supposed offer of F16's was nothing---. Bill was arrogant---remember he would not shake hands with Musharraf the first time he stopped by in Pakistan----.

Nawaz never had the technique to deal from a position of strength----. By putting restriction on capital leaving Pakistan---he had already put himself and the country in a very weak position---a position he could not negotiate from----.

Now if there were no restrictions and expats had filled the coffers with 5 billion plus dollars---Nawaz had a position to deal from strength-----.

But---again----you guys are forgetting something----these nucs are our security----. See what happened to Libya---Iraq---Syria---and on top of that Russia----cold war ended and the Russia was dumped----.

Don't second guess about the F 16 or F 15 deal---if we could trade our nucs for them---if anything you want to second guess or want to HANG SOMEONE----it is the chief of Pakistan air force during 2002 - 2005 ---if it was not for the TRAITORS OF PAF ---- we would not have had these issues.

 

[ejaz007]

With J-31 Flight, China Makes a Statement

ZHUHAI, CHINA — When China’s stealthy, twin-engine J-31 took to the skies over Airshow China in Zhuhai last week, the skies were cloudy, but the message the country wanted to send was clear.

Beijing not only plans to sell a new fighter — it also wants to sell itself on the world stage.

“I think the public unveiling of J-31 certainly shows the Chinese military is now more confident and transparent,” said Wang Dong, director of the School of International Studies, Center for Northeast Asian Strategic Studies, Peking University.

Beijing’s lack of transparency has created suspicion and speculation in the Pentagon and among China watchers in Washington.

“This is a message of reassurance to the region,” Wang said. Becoming more transparent and revealing your top military technologies serves as a message of deterrence to potential rivals. “China’s increase in confidence and transparency should be applauded.”

China plans to export the J-31; the customer lineup appears to be Iran and Pakistan. The J-31 will be the first stealth fighter available on the global market for those who face US export restrictions or cannot afford the Lockheed Martin F-35.

The J-31 export revelation occurred in the AVIC Exhibition Hall after personnel unwrapped its 1:2 model of the aircraft during the preshow media tour. The placard for the model said “FC-31.” Chinese fighters are designated with a “J” for fighter and “FC” for export. This was the first time the J-31 has been referred to as the FC-31.

Larry Wortzel, a commissioner of the US congressionally appointed US-China Economic and Security Review Commission, said the first public demonstration flight of the J-31 and the unveiling of the FC-31 coincides with the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation meeting in Beijing and the visit of US President Obama.

It reminded Wortzel of the same greeting that former US Defense Secretary Robert Gates got with the surprise first flight of the CAC-built J-20 stealth fighter during his visit to China in January 2011. The incident was interpreted by many in Washington as a political signal to the US delegation, though Chinese officials denied there was a connection. Regarding the coincidence of Obama’s visit to China and the appearance of the J-31 at Zhuhai, Wortzel said, “at least this time there is some advance notice.”

The presence of the aircraft at Zhuhai indicates China is looking at the export arena, said Douglas Barrie, a senior fellow for military aerospace at the International Institute for Strategic Studies, London.

“This, however, raises numerous questions, not least of all, just which of China’s present export customers is in the market for or has the capacity to absorb and field what is at least notionally a fifth-generation combat aircraft,” he said. Barrie noted that in terms of a successor to the Chengdu J-7 fighter family in the export arena, developments of the CAC-built J-10 or the JF-17/FC-1 are far more credible in the near term.

China seems to be aiming at an odd market niche, said Roger Cliff, nonresident senior fellow for the Asia Security Initiative at the Atlantic Council. “Countries that don’t want to pay for an F-35, but want something better, than, say, a MiG-29 or F-16,” such as Iran and Pakistan, might be interested in the FC-31. However, there does not seem to be enough of an export market to justify the development costs, Cliff said. “Not that everything AVIC does is driven by economic logic.”

Cliff suspects that if the Chinese Air Force is planning to buy the J-31, “it will be the ‘low’ part of a high-low mix with the more-capable system, the J-20 [stealth fighter], conspicuously absent at Zhuhai, even though it is presumably further along in its development.”

Cliff said that if the point was to show off China’s capabilities, it would bring a J-20 to Zhuhai. “For China to offer for export the less-capable of two similar systems, however, would be consistent with past practice,” such as the JF-17/FC-1 and J-10 fighters and the KS-1 and HQ-9 surface-to-air missile systems.

The one item the Chinese have trouble duplicating is advanced fighter engine designs. The Russian-built Saturn AL-31 engine is believed to be the power source for the J-31 prototype. This does not necessarily mean the fighter will have export problems due to licensing. Cliff said there is precedent for the Russian’s allowing re-export of the RD-93 engine on the FC-1/JF-17, “so I don’t see why it wouldn’t be allowed in this case.”

China is trying to develop the indigenous WS-13 engine to take the RD-93’s place on the FC-1 and, presumably, the J-31. “If they succeed, then Russian engines won’t be an issue.”

Chinese officials have not explained the J-31’s striking resemblance to the F-35, but espionage is the most likely explanation.

“I have argued you always get a double bounce from [Chinese] espionage — they get the system for the [military] and also sell it,” said Edward Timperlake, former Pentagon director of technology assessment, international technology security. “The bad news/ good news is if the collectors [aka spies] were successful in getting the F-35, hopefully they did it mid-software design, so they really do not have the logic of the software as the US constantly improves the coding — much like successfully stealing a calculus midterm without being present in class — being proud of an A and then failing to steal the final.”

Evidence does exist that suggests China is still trying to get access to that final test paper. In June, the US Federal Bureau of Investigation alleged that a Chinese businessman living in Canada, Su Bin, accessed both F-22 Raptor and F-35 secrets from US defense industry computers. Su is alleged to have obtained F-35 test plans and “blueprints” that would “allow us [China] to catch up rapidly with US levels … [and] stand easily on the giant’s shoulders,” according to Su’s e-mails made public by the US Department of Justice.

Wortzel, who wrote the book, “The Dragon Extends its Reach: Chinese Military Power Goes Global,” said it is still unknown how much reverse engineering and technology theft influenced the aircraft design.

“It is a significant development that shows how the parallel development process is going inside AVIC” for the J-31 and J-20. “The commission’s annual report project [initial operating capability] for both the J-20 and the J-31 is in the 2016-2017 time frame.”

But how stealthy and fifth-generation is the J-31 compared to its near mirror image, the F-35? Fifth-generation means more than just stealth, Cliff said.

“It also includes super-cruise, thrust vectoring, AESA [active electronically scanned array] radar, and high-bandwidth, low-probability-of-intercept data links,” he said.

Admittedly, by those standards even the F-22 and F-35 are not completely fifth-generation, Cliff said, “but since, like the F-35, the J-31 doesn’t look like it will have super-cruise or thrust-vectoring, whether it is more than just a stealthy fourth-generation fighter will depend on whether it comes with an AESA radar and/or high-bandwidth, low-probability-of-intercept data links, which the F-35 does have.”

The physical resemblance between the J-31 and the F-35 — despite the difference in relative size — indicates an effort by China to reproduce the F-35s stealthy external design, Timperlake said.

“If it is a success in being physically stealthy and they build a lot it could be a problem” for our allies in the region, he said.

However, stealth is simply a survivability feature and analysts must learn more about the internal systems. The real combat engagement operational and tactical question is the F-35 fusion cockpit and whether the Chinese actually have anything close to it, Timperlake said.

“Fusion will make all the difference in looking at the J-31 as a real competitor or just a linear generational development aircraft with perhaps enhanced survivability that will still need a hub spoke battle management [concept of operations] — [airborne warning and control system] or [ground-controlled interception] being essential for them,” he said. ■

Email: wminnick@defensenews.com.

With J-31 Flight, China Makes a Statement | Defense News | defensenews.com

 

[faisal6309]

很高兴看到这样的新闻，实际上我认为巴基斯坦暂时不必在意这些还未真正确定的新闻报道，枭龙在中国国内看来也是相当不错的一款飞机，从现在已经公布的报道看，巴基斯坦对枭龙的改进还在深入，这说明巴基斯坦对这款飞机的掌握在不断加深，也说明这款飞机的升级改进潜力很大。巴基斯坦空军现在面临的压力比较大，应该先满足自身需要，然后才能全力进攻国际市场，至于现在日常宣传，完全可以当做是预热。我希望巴基斯坦能把枭龙改进成三代半战机，这样就能自我满足来自印度和西方战机的威胁了。好处就是，巴基斯坦可以自己生产和升级这款战机，而不是只能依靠国外，这样不管什么时候都不会被人卡脖子！

First of all, I had to use Google translate to know what you were saying, so please use English to write.

Second, yes, Pakistan is currently relying a lot on foreign countries because of their air crafts. But things will change now. USA is forcing us to make our own full fledged defence industry and friendly cooperation between Pakistan and China will help us counter threats from India as well as west. We now need to cooperate more to end this dependency of technology on other countries (especially west).