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SAC - FC-31 Grey Falcon Stealth aircraft for PAF : Updates & Debate

An unidentified Middle Eastern country is in “advanced” talks to make the first foreign purchase of a fighter jet jointly developed by Pakistan and China.

The joint sales team from the Pakistan Air Force and China National Aero-Technology Import and Export Corporation also known as CATIC, are in advanced talks with 10 other countries to sell the JF-17 Thunder, said PAF Air Commodore Khalid Mahmood, who heads sales and marketing for the fighter jet.

“We are in advanced negotiations with a Middle Eastern country, but the political situation over there has delayed the deal,” said Mahmood in an interview at the Zhuhai Air Show yesterday, declining to give more details. “But we still expect them to be our first foreign client.”

The JF-17 Thunder fighter jet is among several aircraft China is seeking to export, after designating its domestic aerospace sector as a key national strategic industry. The twin-engine jet was jointly designed and manufactured by the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex and Chengdu Aircraft Corporation, a subsidiary of state-owned Aviation Industry Corp of China, also known as AVIC.

The partners are in “advanced talks” with clients in Africa, Asia, the Middle East and South America for jet sales, Mahmood said. He declined to identify any of them. Prospective orders will be for the third block of 50 planes, with the Pakistan Air Force having ordered the first two blocks of 50.

Dual-Seat Version

Mahmood said there are plans in place for a dual-seater version of the JF-17 Thunder after feedback from potential clients. The third-generation fighter jet, also known as FC-1 Dragon by the Chinese, can be used for aerial reconnaissance and has air-to-air and air-to-surface combat capabilities, according to its product website.

Flightglobal, an aviation-related website, previously reported that the partnership was close to making its first foreign sale.

A mock up of the single-seat, single-engine JF-17 is on display at the Zhuhai Air Show that started Nov. 11 in the province of Guangdong, along with several others produced by AVIC -- including the J-31, one of China’s fifth-generation stealth fighters.

The J-31 gave its first public demonstration at China’s largest air show on Tuesday. Manufactured by a Shenyang AVIC subsidiary, the fighter is a test of the country’s ability to deliver cutting-edge defense technology.

Still largely-shrouded in secrecy, the production of the fighter could add heft to China’s sea and air expansion in the region and its push-back against decades of U.S. economic and military dominance.

China-Pakistan Fighter Jet Nears First Foreign Deal - Businessweek
all is bs till we actually see any of the money…
 
I would wait a bit more till we have more credible news coming out. For many reasons F31 seems to be tbe .ost logical next purchase. However PAF has its hands full with absorbing the knowledge gained from JFT. Does it have the finances, manpower and indeed the expertise to contribute to the project? If the answer is No which unfortunately at this point seems to be the case the the news has to be premature if not incorrect.
So what seems to be going on?To my mind the following come to mind.
1. PAF genuinely like the fighter and want to incorporate some aspects of it in JFT to enhance its prospects and develop it. As an offshoot they will agree to buy it when it meets their requirements. This would mean further enhancements of JFT with incorporation of more technologies and commonality of equipment leading to reduction of price and involvement of local industry enhanced production of other technologies such as composites and others.
2. The news has been intentionally floated to suit CATIC to hype up the plane and find local / international partners for further growth and development.
3. It will put the IAF in further disarray as the Rafale contract no longer seems worth the 20 billion that you wanted to pay for it.The soviet 5th generation f8ghter would need some time to mature and therefore they will not have much options but to conceed .superiority or look at even more expensive options from else where

1. The aircraft was not the product PAF was looking at for its 5th generation requirement. However, if a developed version offers all that the PAF wants, it will take a flying aircraft over as of yet concept.

2. CATIC is so far not in charge of the project's export.

3. Not exactly, the Rafale still remains a potent threat. What a 5th generation platform with the PAF will do is that it will create problems for the Indian ADGE(Air Defence Ground Environment) to provide sufficient warning and defence for its most key installations and give PAF the ability to strike Anywhere in the most heavily defended areas of India.
 
3. Not exactly, the Rafale still remains a potent threat. What a 5th generation platform with the PAF will do is that it will create problems for the Indian ADGE(Air Defence Ground Environment) to provide sufficient warning and defence for its most key installations and give PAF the ability to strike Anywhere in the most heavily defended areas of India.

It would have clear first shoot advantage against Rafale but on the downside in internal bay only configuration it won't carry more than 4 AAMs and it probably lacks a canon too.
 
Typical journalistic bs. Now JF-17 is a twin engine fighter, news to us all.
Why people like you or me cant be the journos who actually knows a few things about defence-
Question: how to apply to be a journalist? -:raise:
 
loTE="Last Samuri, post: 6432230, member: 152893"]Araz.

I can assure the Indians want to be left alone to concentrate on growinn g their large economy and realising their potential to be a global industrial giant.

The Indians have more to lose from conflict than . Pakistan they are the ones that everybody in the west expects to be leading the Asian growth engine. India wants to pull millions out of poverty to do his they need stability . A war or conflict with anyone will slow down Indian growth.

This notion that India is planning to invade Pakistan and destroy it is not what people see or perceive in the west.

There are elements in power that insist on stirring trouble and until power is wrestled from these elements peace and growth in particular for Pakistan will never happen[/QUOTE]
My friend.
I am not naive to not realize the pressures on both India and Pakistan to not escalate a skirmish into full scale fight. However please forgive me for taking your statement of India wanting to leave Pakistan alone with a bucketful of salt.
I dont want to digress too much from the subject at hand but in the division of Indo Pak lies the very key to our problems. Our former rulers have effectively left a wedge between the 2 countries in the form of Kashmir. IndIia's initial reason for usurping Kashmir was none other than the establishment of the legacy of the Nehru family. Subsequently the rift in major states and call for independence in various parts of India has rightly brought fears in the heart of the indian polity that releasing their hold on kashmir will lead to subsequent dismemberment of the indian state. The situation is very tricky and the last attempt made by Musharraf to restore sanity at the cost of a national step down from our stated position . No one else but the indians are to be blamed for scupperring that peace overture.
For an agricultural nation the most important thing is water and inspite of sheer stupidity and neglect we have a genuine concern about indian control and manipulation of our resource. This will lead to more conflict and in fact I can see a major war in the region in or around the 30s. Our and your arming by vested interests is merely to ensure that this war occurs and leads to the 3rd world war unless we are careful.
araz
 
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First impressions

J31,/ looks a great airframe very stealthy.

My question or doubt on the fighter is how good or bad is the engine technology.

Secondly a fifth generation platform deserves fifth generation radar cockpit and weapons . At this stage all of these are yet to demonstrateed by chinease.

I am sure j31, will get the engine radars weapons and ew suites eventually but those Pakistanis expecting this to happen before 2025 are being grossly optimistic.

For me fifth generation fighter need a tvc engine of Russian or European standard.

Aesa radars ew suites of dassult spectra capability and bvr missiles of the amraam d or meteors bvr standard.

At this stage these areas the chinease are marginally behind the europeans and Americans

This is what will take five or seven more years
 
Why people like you or me cant be the journos who actually knows a few things about defence-
Question: how to apply to be a journalist? -:raise:

Oh damn, RIP to Journalism .. as @JonAsad is about to be one :D

on topic, first it was KSA , but nothing happen ... they show interest and than forget ... unless we see show orders and $$$ , nothing to be excited
 
Well all Middle East countries are in a state of flux thanks to American intervention and our accepting this open terrorism of the west.

My guess is Egypt or Iraq.
 
First impressions

J31,/ looks a great airframe very stealthy.

My question or doubt on the fighter is how good or bad is the engine technology.

Secondly a fifth generation platform deserves fifth generation radar cockpit and weapons . At this stage all of these are yet to demonstrateed by chinease.

I am sure j31, will get the engine radars weapons and ew suites eventually but those Pakistanis expecting this to happen before 2025 are being grossly optimistic.

For me fifth generation fighter need a tvc engine of Russian or European standard.

Aesa radars ew suites of dassult spectra capability and bvr missiles of the amraam d or meteors bvr standard.

At this stage these areas the chinease are marginally behind the europeans and Americans

This is what will take five or seven more years

Generally your points are fair but I want to touch on the above one point only.

PAF was not born yesterday and they also not deaf, dumb and blind. If they have put their hands into something then they have a plan as well.
 
Hmm, interesting. So we don't know yet which radar J-31 is flying with? I believe it would be similar to J-20's, except that since J-20 is more of a fighter bomber than a fighter, radar modes might differ a bit.

I am under the impression (from weapons bay size and airframe configuration) that it is more of a fighter-interceptor with accomodations for air-to-ground munitions.
 
I have hashed up something in the link below based on how many, of what is currently operational, was inducted and (based on my internet findings and news releases) what has been lost due to attrition. It is still a guestimate at best.

Pakistan Air Force Current Fighter Fleet | aliyusufs

is it possible that you might update the info and inventory of PAF on wikipedia page, I ve noticed a lot of information is woefully outdated, it needs an update, looks like nobody has bothered updating it, yet everyone checks it.
 
Hi,

In a short conflict---neither parties can afford to lose over 50 aircraft a piece. After digging deeper into it----india cannot have any conflict with Pakistan---plain and simple---. It simply cannot afford to---.

There is too much risk involved----and then the " what if " factor---. As a striking force----it will suffer heavier losses of its aircraft---. If the iaf suffers 1 and 1 / 2 to twice the numbers----its myth is blown to smithereens---from a wannabe policeman of south asia---it would become a laughing stock.

And what about the counter---paf will always make counter strikes---as a matter of fact as the iaf strikes be coming in---paf strikes would be going out as well.

If paf can get 2 sqdrn's of heavies---I would say that Mr Modi will have some serious second thoughts.
 
j-31-fc-31.jpg

With J-31 Flight, China Makes a Statement


Nov. 15, 2014 - 04:37PM |
By WENDELL MINNICK


Export Ambitions: A Chinese J-31 stealth fighter performs at the Airshow China 2014 in Zhuhai on Nov. 11. (JOHANNES EISELE/ / AFP/Getty Images)

ZHUHAI, CHINA — When China’s stealthy, twin-engine J-31 took to the skies over Airshow China in Zhuhai last week, the skies were cloudy, but the message the country wanted to send was clear.

Beijing not only plans to sell a new fighter — it also wants to sell itself on the world stage.

“I think the public unveiling of J-31 certainly shows the Chinese military is now more confident and transparent,” said Wang Dong, director of the School of International Studies, Center for Northeast Asian Strategic Studies, Peking University.

Beijing’s lack of transparency has created suspicion and speculation in the Pentagon and among China watchers in Washington.

“This is a message of reassurance to the region,” Wang said. Becoming more transparent and revealing your top military technologies serves as a message of deterrence to potential rivals. “China’s increase in confidence and transparency should be applauded.”

China plans to export the J-31; the customer lineup appears to be Iran and Pakistan. The J-31 will be the first stealth fighter available on the global market for those who face US export restrictions or cannot afford the Lockheed Martin F-35.

The J-31 export revelation occurred in the AVIC Exhibition Hall after personnel unwrapped its 1:2 model of the aircraft during the preshow media tour. The placard for the model said “FC-31.” Chinese fighters are designated with a “J” for fighter and “FC” for export. This was the first time the J-31 has been referred to as the FC-31.

Larry Wortzel, a commissioner of the US congressionally appointed US-China Economic and Security Review Commission, said the first public demonstration flight of the J-31 and the unveiling of the FC-31 coincides with the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation meeting in Beijing and the visit of US President Obama.

It reminded Wortzel of the same greeting that former US Defense Secretary Robert Gates got with the surprise first flight of the CAC-built J-20 stealth fighter during his visit to China in January 2011. The incident was interpreted by many in Washington as a political signal to the US delegation, though Chinese officials denied there was a connection. Regarding the coincidence of Obama’s visit to China and the appearance of the J-31 at Zhuhai, Wortzel said, “at least this time there is some advance notice.”

The presence of the aircraft at Zhuhai indicates China is looking at the export arena, said Douglas Barrie, a senior fellow for military aerospace at the International Institute for Strategic Studies, London.

“This, however, raises numerous questions, not least of all, just which of China’s present export customers is in the market for or has the capacity to absorb and field what is at least notionally a fifth-generation combat aircraft,” he said. Barrie noted that in terms of a successor to the Chengdu J-7 fighter family in the export arena, developments of the CAC-built J-10 or the JF-17/FC-1 are far more credible in the near term.

China seems to be aiming at an odd market niche, said Roger Cliff, nonresident senior fellow for the Asia Security Initiative at the Atlantic Council. “Countries that don’t want to pay for an F-35, but want something better, than, say, a MiG-29 or F-16,” such as Iran and Pakistan, might be interested in the FC-31. However, there does not seem to be enough of an export market to justify the development costs, Cliff said. “Not that everything AVIC does is driven by economic logic.”

Cliff suspects that if the Chinese Air Force is planning to buy the J-31, “it will be the ‘low’ part of a high-low mix with the more-capable system, the J-20 [stealth fighter], conspicuously absent at Zhuhai, even though it is presumably further along in its development.”

Cliff said that if the point was to show off China’s capabilities, it would bring a J-20 to Zhuhai. “For China to offer for export the less-capable of two similar systems, however, would be consistent with past practice,” such as the JF-17/FC-1 and J-10 fighters and the KS-1 and HQ-9 surface-to-air missile systems.

The one item the Chinese have trouble duplicating is advanced fighter engine designs. The Russian-built Saturn AL-31 engine is believed to be the power source for the J-31 prototype. This does not necessarily mean the fighter will have export problems due to licensing. Cliff said there is precedent for the Russian’s allowing re-export of the RD-93 engine on the FC-1/JF-17, “so I don’t see why it wouldn’t be allowed in this case.”

China is trying to develop the indigenous WS-13 engine to take the RD-93’s place on the FC-1 and, presumably, the J-31. “If they succeed, then Russian engines won’t be an issue.”

Chinese officials have not explained the J-31’s striking resemblance to the F-35, but espionage is the most likely explanation.

“I have argued you always get a double bounce from [Chinese] espionage — they get the system for the [military] and also sell it,” said Edward Timperlake, former Pentagon director of technology assessment, international technology security. “The bad news/ good news is if the collectors [aka spies] were successful in getting the F-35, hopefully they did it mid-software design, so they really do not have the logic of the software as the US constantly improves the coding — much like successfully stealing a calculus midterm without being present in class — being proud of an A and then failing to steal the final.”

Evidence does exist that suggests China is still trying to get access to that final test paper. In June, the US Federal Bureau of Investigation alleged that a Chinese businessman living in Canada, Su Bin, accessed both F-22 Raptor and F-35 secrets from US defense industry computers. Su is alleged to have obtained F-35 test plans and “blueprints” that would “allow us [China] to catch up rapidly with US levels … [and] stand easily on the giant’s shoulders,” according to Su’s e-mails made public by the US Department of Justice.

Wortzel, who wrote the book, “The Dragon Extends its Reach: Chinese Military Power Goes Global,” said it is still unknown how much reverse engineering and technology theft influenced the aircraft design.

“It is a significant development that shows how the parallel development process is going inside AVIC” for the J-31 and J-20. “The commission’s annual report project [initial operating capability] for both the J-20 and the J-31 is in the 2016-2017 time frame.”

But how stealthy and fifth-generation is the J-31 compared to its near mirror image, the F-35? Fifth-generation means more than just stealth, Cliff said.

“It also includes super-cruise, thrust vectoring, AESA [active electronically scanned array] radar, and high-bandwidth, low-probability-of-intercept data links,” he said.

Admittedly, by those standards even the F-22 and F-35 are not completely fifth-generation, Cliff said, “but since, like the F-35, the J-31 doesn’t look like it will have super-cruise or thrust-vectoring, whether it is more than just a stealthy fourth-generation fighter will depend on whether it comes with an AESA radar and/or high-bandwidth, low-probability-of-intercept data links, which the F-35 does have.”

The physical resemblance between the J-31 and the F-35 — despite the difference in relative size — indicates an effort by China to reproduce the F-35s stealthy external design, Timperlake said.

“If it is a success in being physically stealthy and they build a lot it could be a problem” for our allies in the region, he said.

However, stealth is simply a survivability feature and analysts must learn more about the internal systems. The real combat engagement operational and tactical question is the F-35 fusion cockpit and whether the Chinese actually have anything close to it, Timperlake said.

“Fusion will make all the difference in looking at the J-31 as a real competitor or just a linear generational development aircraft with perhaps enhanced survivability that will still need a hub spoke battle management [concept of operations] — [airborne warning and control system] or [ground-controlled interception] being essential for them,” he said. ■

Email: wminnick@defensenews.com.
 

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