SAC - FC-31 Grey Falcon Stealth aircraft for PAF : Updates & Debate

[Muhammad Omar]

are we getting v1 or v 2??

 

[Ultima Thule]

Hmm, interesting. So we don't know yet which radar J-31 is flying with? I believe it would be similar to J-20's, except that since J-20 is more of a fighter bomber than a fighter, radar modes might differ a bit.

its in a testing phase, it may have pulse dropler radar, PEASA or AESA who knows, who tell you that J-20 is fighter bomber? it more like air defense fighter with a secondary role of air to ground

 

[Lil Mathew]

A very old news and now get back to topic please

Billions to Upgrade and Up-arm Pakistan’s F-16s

Leaked cables are out.. We know almost everything about f 16 deal now..
80337: F-16 LOA signed at last
MG Tariq Salim Malik, Additional Secretary of Ministry of Defense Production (MODP), signed the Letter of Acceptance (LOA) to purchase 18 F-16s Saturday evening, September 30.
80337 10/2/2006 10:31:00 AM 06ISLAMABAD19208 Embassy Islamabad CONFIDENTIAL//NOFORN 06ISLAMABAD17768 | 06ISLAMABAD17992 VZCZCXRO6356PP RUEHLH RUEHPWDE RUEHIL #9208/01 2751031ZNY CCCCC ZZHP 021031Z OCT 06FM AMEMBASSY ISLAMABADTO RUEHC/SECSTATE WASHDC PRIORITY 1582INFO RUEHNE/AMEMBASSY NEW DELHI PRIORITY 9402RUEHKP/AMCONSUL KARACHI PRIORITY 2947RUEHLH/AMCONSUL LAHORE PRIORITY 0249RUEHPW/AMCONSUL PESHAWAR PRIORITY 8304RUEKJCS/SECDEF WASHINGTON DC PRIORITYRHEHNSC/NSC WASHDC PRIORITY C O N F I D E N T I A L SECTION 01 OF 02 ISLAMABAD 019208 SIPDIS NOFORN SIPDIS

E.O. 12958: DECL: 09/05/2016 TAGS: MASS, MCAP, PK, PREL

SUBJECT: F-16 LOA SIGNED AT LAST.

REF: A.) ISLAMABAD 017768 B.) ISLAMABAD 017992

Classified By: Ambassador Ryan C. Crocker, Reasons 1.4 (b) and (d)

1. (C) MG Tariq Salim Malik, Additional Secretary of Ministry of Defense Production (MODP), signed the Letter of Acceptance (LOA) to purchase 18 F-16s Saturday evening, September 30. Following the private signing ceremony, MODP presented to Office of Defense Representative Pakistan a side memo, the text of which is printed in paragraph 3.



2. (C) Comment: We consider the memo to be separate from the LOA, which constitutes a valid legal contract. Many of the issues raised in the memo were addressed and resolved in President Musharraf's Washington D.C. meetings with President Bush, Secretary Rumsfeld, and other USG principals. In preparing a response, post encourages USG agencies to include references to the understandings regarding the F-16 LOA that came out of those Washington meetings. End Comment.



3. (SBU) Text of the September 30 momo:



(Begin Text)



RESTRICTED



IMMEDIATE Ministry of Defence Production Directorate General Defence Purchase Pakistan Secretariat II, Rawalpindi Telephone: 9270924 No. 1367/F-16 pkg/DGDP/FMS



30 Sep 2006



To: ODRP

--- US Embassy,

-- Islamabad



Copy to: DSCA

-- 1111 Jefferson Davis HWY

-- Arlington, VA-22202



Subject: Signing of F-16 LOAs



1. All the three F-16 Package LOAs (PK-D-SAF, PK-D-NAP, PK-D-YAD) are being signed subject to the following conditions: -
a. On the method and schedule of payments we request that Pakistan Be allowed to avail clause 4.4.6 of the LOA Standard Terms and conditions; which allows payment on delivery rather cash prior to deliver. If this is absolutely impossible then we suggest as an alternative, that the schedule of payments be modified. Under the existing schedule for the 3 LOAs, out of the total package of $2965.95 million, 83% or $2450.23 million are to be paid by 2009-10, the first four years of the programme. This schedule will be an immense strain on Pakistan,s fiscal and foreign exchange resources, posing sever constraints on Pakistan,s ability to invest in the social and fiscal infrastructure. This will jeopardize Pakistan,s growth and poverty alleviation prospects in a particularly challenging period. We, therefore, request that the payment schedule be back loaded in a manner that most of the payments fall in the last three years of the programme.
“The bottom line is that Pakistan cannot afford the $2 billion required to complete this F-16 program,” wrote Ambassador Patterson in 2009 (189129: secret). “At the same time, nothing is more important to good military-military (and overall U.S.-Pakistani) relations than avoiding a blow-up over the F-16 case.”

PAKISTAN AIR FORCE SEEKS FMF FOR F-16 MLU CASE



3. (SBU) In September 2006 the U.S. and Pakistan reached agreement to provide U.S. manufactured F-16's to the Pakistan Air Force (PAF). The agreement served to stabilize the conventional military balance in South Asia, provide additional business for U.S. defense companies and most importantly, promised to yield foreign policy benefits for the U.S. by exorcising, at least partially, the bitter legacy of the Pressler Amendment. The F-16 sale was primarily built around three separate Foreign Military Sales cases that had a potential value of $5.1 billion. The 2005 Kashmir earthquake and subsequent financial constraints caused Pakistan to reduce the number of new planes purchased from 36 to 18 lowering the overall value of the deal to $3.1 billion.



4. (SBU) The three cases were built around the 18 new planes valued at $1.4 billion; associated F-16 munitions for approximately $641 million; and the Mid Life Update for Pakistan's existing F-16 fleet valued at $891 million. Additionally, the U.S. has agreed to provide Pakistan with F-16s designated as Excess Defense Articles (EDA); Pakistan accepted 12 Block 15 F-16 A/B EDA aircraft.



5. (SBU) The Letter of Offer and Acceptance for the Mid-Life Update case covers the sale of the upgrade kits for Pakistan's existing fleet of Block 15 F-16 A/B aircraft, the cost of training Pakistani technicians, and the purchase of specialized tooling to accomplish the installation. Pakistan will also the MLU kits to upgrade some of the EDA F-16's we are providing them. The MLU case was written and agreed upon by the USG and Pakistan as a "mixed funding" case, allowing Pakistan to use $108.395 million in FMF credits on the overall $891 million case. This price does not include the cost of MLU installation outside of Pakistan -- a decision that will likely push the total value of this FMF case to over $1 billion. Pakistan viewed this allowance to partially fund the case with FMF as an opening to amend it on an annual basis. The PAF leadership believes the U.S. understood Pakistan intended to use future FMF credits on the MLU case.

 

[Donatello]

its in a testing phase, it may have pulse dropler radar, PEASA or AESA who knows, who tell you that J-20 is fighter bomber? it more like air defense fighter with a secondary role of air to ground

Look at the shape of the wings. Not very agility oriented, but well enough for carrying heavy payload, lots of internal fuel for range and stable flight to drop those bombs.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

4th gen according to China Standards , i think ....
@ChineseTiger1986

For China, J-11/J-15 are 3rd gen, while J-20/J-31 are 4th gen.

 

[Ultima Thule]

Look at the shape of the wings. Not very agility oriented, but well enough for carrying heavy payload, lots of internal fuel for range and stable flight to drop those bombs.

and what about the wings of MIG-1.44 and eurofighter, rafale and gripen these r agile fighters with a very similar wing configration, Canard delta planform build for agility not for stable flight to drop bombs, do some research and then talk, no hard feeling

 

[Donatello]

and what about the wings of MIG-1.44 and eurofighter, rafale and gripen these r agile fighters with a very similar wing configration, Canard delta planform build for agility not for stable flight to drop bombs, do some research and then talk, no hard feeling

Check the distance of the wings from the cockpit on Typhoon or Mirage or Gripen or Rafale. There is thing called the aspect ratio. It has its part in the flight dynamics. Please have a look yourself.

 

[The SC]

my mistake!! But be Realistic you really think Chinese Industry is so Mature that it Pecked down prices of fifth gen fighter to 50 million when there j-15 is cost them more than 55-60 million A Piece Really. well Even west with So Mature Aviation Industry Couldn't achieve this.And manufacturing j-31 in PAC its your industry is capable to achieve that much of complicated TOT.

Size matters, and yes Pakistan is capable of achieving a part of that ToT, that is why the price should not exceed $50 million a piece. Where the F-16 block 52 costs $34 million a piece made in USA, I mean including very expensive labor and profit.

 

[Hyperion]

Only F35 is baked, furthermore, composites are not classified, not anymore.

j-31 have used RAM Coating and few design change in reducing Rcs Unlike US they have mastered the stealth design and aircraft's like f-35 and,f-22 are fully baked in Fiber-mat Stealth and their structural compositions are Classified .In first impressions of j-31 you can see it is created taking aspect of frontal RCS in A2A combat Typical common in Chinese designs and Russian. but in aerial engagement aircraft should have 360 degree coverage all depend on sensors and jammers used

 

[The SC]

A big country with a high defence budget have many times capital budget that in really seems..
For example.. Take PAF and IAF..
PAF budget is ~1.5 billion and IAF budget is 10 billion.. Only 6 times bigger... But take a look at capital budget.. This year IAF capital budget is ~6 billion.. That is revenue budget for maintaining present fleets is ~4 billion.. For maintain a minimum std PAF's old and big fleet also needs somewhat ~1.2 billion.. So capital budget is ~300 million..
That is IAF capital budget is 6 billion against PAF's 300 million.. So IAF's capital budget is 20 times bigger than PAF's..

You forgot to substract the $4 billion for maintaining the IAF fleet, have you done it on purpose?
So that will be capital budget: India $2 billion, Pakistan $300 million (That is, if PAF budget is $1.5 billion as you think, If it is $2 billion, the gap will not be that big, PAF capital budget would be $800 million. So IAF capital buget would be 2.5 times bigger)

 

[The SC]

That's why the 3D printing has been brought for in J-31 project...I will cost max around 6 mill per unit.
Budget is indeed a problem for PAF but when it comes for doing something then same Pakistan completed it's nuclear program(which by West is believed to be many folds advanced than that of indian) & you are well aware for the costs associated with it.

Do you mean $60 million per unit?

 

[Ultima Thule]

Check the distance of the wings from the cockpit on Typhoon or Mirage or Gripen or Rafale. There is thing called the aspect ratio. It has its part in the flight dynamics. Please have a look yourself.

so what is your point dear

 

[ziaulislam]

..MORE dreams

well atleast it makes more sense than J-10, if true,
a 70-80 f-16s, 200 jf-17 and 30-60 j-31 means pakistan will be good enough till 2030 . and even ready for MRCA and FGFA from IAF

 

[zhang5521]

Believe me your english is not that bad as you think so keep writing

thank you my friend

 

[Kompromat]

Col Amir was suggesting that PAF is in 'no hurry' of buying the FC-31 because its totally and utterly focused on replacing PAF's old fleet of A-5, Mirage-III, Mirage V, F-7P aircrafts with different blocks of JF-17 Thunder fighter. Looking towards the future though the PAF also would have to replace its F-7PGs as well as the older F-16A/B MLU-MIII aircrafts which it received in the 80s. PAF is looking for a platform which shares some aspects in common with the JF-17s to reduce cost, increase its response time and readiness. FC-31 fits the bill because it not only allows the PAF to get hooked with SAC early in its formative years of development to make sure that the end product fits PAF's future needs vis-a-vis PAK-FA/Rafale etc but also is powered by the same class of engines which would be interchangeable with its JF-17s (WS-13/17). FC-31 also offers a common data link/sensor fusion, HMD, some other spare parts and weaponry. The weapon systems PAF will mature on the JF-17s can then be integrated on the FC-31 to make sure that the new jet reaches its operational service level in a short period of joining PAF's service. Its also likely that Pakistan will increase its order as the time goes by and would receive some transfer of technology.

Airshow China 2014: Pakistan in talks to buy '30-40 FC-31s' - IHS Jane's 360