SAC - FC-31 Grey Falcon Stealth aircraft for PAF : Updates & Debate

[LKJ86]

I think you might be confusing my interest in the Gray Falcon with your displeasure towards the Turks and their future endeavors.

No no no
I am waiting for TF-X, Hürjet, new engines, and so on.
No offense

 

[Trailer23]

No no no
I am waiting for TF-X, Hürjet, new engines, and so on.
No offense

None taken.

I'm not Turkish.

 

[StormBreaker]

It's increasingly looking like what @HRK described. AvRID/PAC are managing the design and testing, but will rely on the Chinese industry for critical inputs (especially engine). I do think they'll try localizing some areas, especially airframe/aero-structure and composites manufacturing, and maybe push for licensed local production of engines, electronics, etc (not turn-key, but not CKD assembly either).

Does seem like it. Local research and “Reinventing the wheel” requires billions of dollars for studies...

And if that is the case, AZM may very well be a thing by 2030 (That means quick)

For stealth coatings to stay effective (due to making ease of maintenance quicker) the Chinese will have to adopt baked in stealth and move away from coatings.

https://imgur.com/j98hikP

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...rumbling-radar-absorbent-skin-are-fascinating

J-20 is a mystery in that terms but most experts claim that it has simple coatings instead of baked in coating.

Plus, Baked in coating even though are quite successful for stealth, increase the maintenance costs significantly

 

[FuturePAF]

Does seem like it. Local research and “Reinventing the wheel” requires billions of dollars for studies...

And if that is the case, AZM may very well be a thing by 2030 (That means quick)


J-20 is a mystery in that terms but most experts claim that it has simple coatings instead of baked in coating.

Plus, Baked in coating even though are quite successful for stealth, increase the maintenance costs significantly

The increased cost is something China is probably willing to accept, if it gets results.

With experience, they may find ways to bring down the costs enough that it will offset by reduced maintenance costs.

If they can apply the technology to other vehicles in their military, including ships and 4th gen aircraft, and even some munitions like cruise missiles, they could significantly reduce maintenance personnel and equipment, and see a leaner fighting force sooner.

not to mention that they can increase sortie rates as planes can turnaround quicker and they would need less aircraft to be available in an area of operation.

 

[StormBreaker]

The increased cost is something China is probably willing to accept, if it gets results.

I have heard China had hard times getting its hands on baked in stealth tech, It is quite different from normal coatings...

 

[FuturePAF]

I have heard China had hard times getting its hands on baked in stealth tech, It is quite different from normal coatings...

Its worth the investment in R&D. (I've edited my post above to list some examples)

 

[ziaulislam]

It's increasingly looking like what @HRK described. AvRID/PAC are managing the design and testing, but will rely on the Chinese industry for critical inputs (especially engine). I do think they'll try localizing some areas, especially airframe/aero-structure and composites manufacturing, and maybe push for licensed local production of engines, electronics, etc (not turn-key, but not CKD assembly either).

Smart way to go...
Now we need some level heads in PA as well to follow same model for every mass produced item rather than off the shelf buying even if its expensive its worth it given the amount of local economy involved

 

[IblinI]

Here is a gem thread from a notable member who works in the related defense sector talking about our navy's stealth fighter and many more.(Sorry it is only in Chinese)
https://lt.cjdby.net/thread-2461769-1-1.html

 

[PeacefulWar]

Yeah, but we're talking about SAC & the FC-31 on this Topic.

I really like this jet. Okay, its no J-20, but still as someone who likes jets, i've been disappointed as no progress has been seen for months/years.

Even (some) Chinese Media Outlets seem to have given up on the FC-31.

I guess PLAAF already have J-20 so they are not interested.
PLAN need lighter 5th fighters for AC but I guess they don't have much faith on SAC. That's why J-31 can't find funding for further progress.
SAC never designed its own fighter before after all.

If my memory serves me well, SAC's senior management team had been replaced by much younger successors last year because of the poor performance.
This maybe bring some changes. China definitely want to maintain two or more high performance team for competition.

That's only my personal thoughts.

 

[khanasifm]

I guess PLAAF already have J-20 so they are not interested.
PLAN need lighter 5th fighters for AC but I guess they don't have much faith on SAC. That's why J-31 can't find funding for further progress.
SAC never designed its own fighter before after all.

If my memory serves me well, SAC's senior management team had been replaced by much younger successors last year because of the poor performance.
This maybe bring some changes. China definitely want to maintain two or more high performance team for competition.

That's only my personal thoughts.

Not sure how many j-20 are operationalised and how many in plaaf today?

today only operational 5g aircraft is f-22 and f-35 rest all still not operationalised or inducted in a
Number that can have an Impact


If Chinese J-20/f-31 gets into operational sqn in next 1-5 years may be paf can go for it as Short/medium term gap filler to replace some of mirages depending upon its performance which on paper seem impressive but I think Chinese engine is real show stopper, needing one for j-20 as well as j-31

 

[FuturePAF]

Not sure how many j-20 are operationalised and how many in plaaf today?

today only operational 5g aircraft is f-22 and f-35 rest all still not operationalised or inducted in a
Number that can have an Impact


If Chinese J-20/f-31 gets into operational sqn in next 1-5 years may be paf can go for it as Short/medium term gap filler to replace some of mirages depending upon its performance which on paper seem impressive but I think Chinese engine is real show stopper, needing one for j-20 as well as j-31

If the WS-15 engine comes online at the expected performance level of 180 kn in full reheat, that technology can be applied to the WS-19 engine project for the J-31 ; approx. max reheat with similar tech maybe near 120-130 kn. Two WS-19 engines could be powerful enough to allow the J-31 design to be competitive with the naval F-35 (F-35 B and F-35C) as well as the F-18, while still allowing the carriers to operate enough fighters to be a match for the Ford Class carriers.

It does indeed come town to the engines

 

[Trailer23]

Not sure how many j-20 are operationalised and how many in plaaf today?

20

 

[Ultima Thule]

Not sure how many j-20 are operationalised and how many in plaaf today?

today only operational 5g aircraft is f-22 and f-35 rest all still not operationalised or inducted in a
Number that can have an Impact


If Chinese J-20/f-31 gets into operational sqn in next 1-5 years may be paf can go for it as Short/medium term gap filler to replace some of mirages depending upon its performance which on paper seem impressive but I think Chinese engine is real show stopper, needing one for j-20 as well as j-31

J20 is already in operationalize. In PLAAF
With interim engine 20 already in service

 

[PeacefulWar]

Not sure how many j-20 are operationalised and how many in plaaf today?

today only operational 5g aircraft is f-22 and f-35 rest all still not operationalised or inducted in a
Number that can have an Impact


If Chinese J-20/f-31 gets into operational sqn in next 1-5 years may be paf can go for it as Short/medium term gap filler to replace some of mirages depending upon its performance which on paper seem impressive but I think Chinese engine is real show stopper, needing one for j-20 as well as j-31

Currently 28 J-20 are in service. What do you mean only f-22 and f-35 are operational?
I don't agree.
Even 1 sqn of 5th gen fighters can make huge compact.

Chinese engines are on the edge of breaking through. Single engine J-10C switched to WS-10 showed great confidence.
But engine is the most high tech component in aviation, it needs money, talents and patient. To reach USA level, it needs at least 15+ years.

In short, engine is relatively weak point but not a show stopper at all.

J-20 to replace Mirage? Interesting

 

[Trailer23]

I accidentally posted this article in the wrong Topics. Must've been pretty late at nite. Anyways, incase some may have missed it...

ehh... Guys, I don't know Chinese, but this vid was recently uploaded on sina.

Link to video: https://k.sina.cn/article_5941687237_m16226f3c503300ri9v.html

Translation: "Sea Four Generations" finally appeared! FC-31 is a positive result ...

<-------------------------------------------------------->​

FC-31 will soon become a carrier-based aircraft?
The fuselage usher in major changes, painted in navy gray!​

All along, the debate about who is the fourth generation of stealth carrier aircraft in China between the F-20 and FC31 is enduring. However, recently the FC31 Falcon verification machine suddenly appeared in a new coat. Could it be that China stealth carrier aircraft The battle finally came to fruition?

Judging from the photos exposed this time, there is still a considerable gap between the current FC31 Falcon Eagle verification machine and the true carrier-based aircraft standard. When the Falcon Eagle debuted, people found that the front landing gear of this verification machine used a two-wheel structure. This design can allow the fighter to withstand more descent rates, and it is indeed convenient for the ship to transform.

But if you want to become a carrier-based aircraft, you don't just need to modify the landing gear. Take the wing, for example, due to the limited hangar and deck space of the aircraft carrier, the fighter wing needs to have a folding function to save space. The exposure of the Falcon verification machine can be clearly seen. Segment flaps are not two-stage flaps designed to facilitate folding.

The second is the wing area. If you want to put the fighter on board, there is an indicator that is very important, that is, the landing speed, or the stability of low altitude and low speed. Due to the limited length of the aircraft carrier deck, the distance that can be left for the carrier aircraft to decelerate is very short. They all rely on the blocking cable to force the carrier aircraft to slow down.

However, the pulling force that the blocking cable and the carrier aircraft can withstand is also limited. As we all know, the higher the speed, the greater the kinetic energy carried by the object. This requires that the landing speed of the carrier aircraft cannot be too fast, otherwise the blocking cable will be broken. Or the body of the carrier aircraft itself.

And if the stability at low altitude and low speed is good, it is more convenient for the pilot to control the landing of the aircraft more smoothly.

The most critical point for slowing down the landing speed of the fighter is to increase the lift. At present, there are two methods. For the conventional layout carrier aircraft such as Falcon, it is to increase the wing area. The other is the use of duck wing aircraft, fighters with duck wings have better innate low-speed performance. For example, the prototype of China's J-15 fighter, Su 33, is Su 27 to add a pair of winglets to increase the lift of the head to reduce the landing speed.

Taking the US F35 fighter as an example, the US Navy increased the wing area of the basic model F35A fighter from 42.7 square meters to 57.6 square meters in order to allow the F35 fighter to board the ship, which is 30% more. This is the US Navy ’s F35c fighter. .

Another point lies in the side magazine. Currently, the Falcon verification machine that is publicly disclosed generally does not have a side magazine design, which means that it cannot be hung on short-range air-to-air missiles. The US Navy F35c carrier aircraft also does not have a side magazine. This leads to F35c if you want to mount AIM9x fighting bullets, you must use an external rack, which is extremely inconvenient and not to mention, it will also destroy stealth performance.

The Falcon itself, as a twin-engine medium engine, takes up too much space on its two engines, and its belly magazine capacity is limited. If there is no side magazine, the weapons that it can mount will be greatly reduced. At the same time, the engine is also a big problem. If the Falcon verification machine can meet the above conditions for becoming a carrier-based aircraft, it will inevitably have a consequence that the weight of the fighter will increase significantly.

Taking the US F35 as an example, the empty weight of its basic model F35A is only about 13.1 tons, while the empty weight of the F35c fighter as a carrier aircraft suddenly increased to 15.6 tons, which is more than 2.5 tons! According to public information, the Falcon Verifier has an empty weight of 12.5 tons. If the above improvements are made, the weight may not be lower than F35c.

But the problem is that the Falcon Eagle currently uses the Russian RD93 engine, and the single thrust is only about 8.3 tons, while the F35c fighter ’s F135 engine has a single thrust of more than 18 tons, which means that the thrust of the two Falcon eagle engines together It ’s no match for the F35c. Now the mobility of the F35 series of fighters has been questioned. Unless the Falcon replaces the engine with a higher thrust, its mobility will only be worse than that of the F35c.

In fact, judging from these conditions, the J-20 is indeed more suitable for boarding than the Falcon. Its changes are also the smallest. The J-20 magazine is large enough, the fuel tank is large enough, and the low-altitude and low-speed performance is also very good. Improvements in landing gear and corrosion protection are required.

In general, Brother Hu believes that if you want to transform the current Falcon verification machine into a qualified carrier-based aircraft, one needs to increase the wing area while allowing the wings to fold, and the other is to need a larger For the magazine, the third is to replace the engine with greater thrust. Taking into account the range problem, it is even necessary to enlarge the structure of the fuselage to ensure sufficient internal oil space.

However, after such an improvement, I am afraid that Falcon will bid farewell to the positioning of the mid-size aircraft. This is the case with the F35c fighter opposite the ocean. Although it is a single release, its maximum take-off weight has reached 31.8 tons, which is almost the same as the J-15. There is nothing wrong with the heavy machine. So the question is, after such a big change, can Falcon Eagle be called Falcon Eagle? (Shun)

https://new.qq.com/omn/20200422/20200422A05UJG00.html?pc