SAC - FC-31 Grey Falcon Stealth aircraft for PAF : Updates & Debate

[MastanKhan]

Some additional statements by Pakistani officials in the months following the former MoDP's statements:

“Importantly, joint collaboration on 5th generation fighter aircraft, commonly known as Turkish Fighter Development [TF-X] Program, will be a true flagship project between Pakistan and Turkey. Currently, the details and scope of collaboration and participation is being worked between the two governments for jointly undertaking this strategic project, which would further open new vistas of mutual cooperation of defence industries of the two countries.”​

November 2016, then Secretary of the MoDP, Lt. Gen (retired) Syed Muhammad Owais:

Source: Birol Tekince. “IDEAS serves as a platform to portray a positive and realistic image of Pakistan.” MSI Turkish Defence Review. November 2016. Issue. 31.

“We are integrating our technology with friendly countries, including Turkey. We are thinking of producing the next-generation aircraft by pooling resources with them. For this, the basic framework and agreements have been made,” and “We are also collaborating with Turkey for developing a next generation aircraft.”

April 2017, then Chief of Air Staff of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF), Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman.

Source: Bol Narratives (link)

No Pak agreement with TAI on TF-X, but sometime in near future it's likely to figure in PAF's new generation fighter aircraft requirement.

Alan Warnes

Source: Twitter
​

Granted, it doesn't outright say the PAF would commit to the TFX, but the TFX is in its early stages as well. If our top level officials are touting it directly or indirectly, then it might be more than just some minor work. The T129 and MILGEM are worth about $1bn and $1.5 bn, respectively, so a "flagship" project (the Secretary MoDP's words, not mine) should be worth more, right?

Hi,

I think the project with Turkey is the begining of of a massive FRAUD BY PAF---. They are finding ways to milk more money and more jobs outside of pakistan---.

There is no reason to go for the TFX---. FC31 is the aircraft---if they want a single engine---then they can talk to the chinese about that---.

TFX is a project too far away---with a lots of ifs and buts---.

Paf would be sabotaging the defences of pakistan one more time if it heads that way---.

I 10 years time---the chinese EW package would far exceed what the Turks might have to offer---.

 

[BHarwana]

Hi,

I think the project with Turkey is the begining of of a massive FRAUD BY PAF---. They are finding ways to milk more money and more jobs outside of pakistan---.

There is no reason to go for the TFX---. FC31 is the aircraft---if they want a single engine---then they can talk to the chinese about that---.

TFX is a project too far away---with a lots of ifs and buts---.

Paf would be sabotaging the defences of pakistan one more time if it heads that way---.

I 10 years time---the chinese EW package would far exceed what the Turks might have to offer---.

Wrong analysis. Our requirement is both jets FC 31 and TFX. One to bomb and other to escort. There are no side bays in FC 31.

So we will get 1 from China and one from Turkey.

 

[royalharris]

Hi,

I think the project with Turkey is the begining of of a massive FRAUD BY PAF---. They are finding ways to milk more money and more jobs outside of pakistan---.

There is no reason to go for the TFX---. FC31 is the aircraft---if they want a single engine---then they can talk to the chinese about that---.

TFX is a project too far away---with a lots of ifs and buts---.

Paf would be sabotaging the defences of pakistan one more time if it heads that way---.

I 10 years time---the chinese EW package would far exceed what the Turks might have to offer---.

The result is clear
But people will say we get knowledge with the large amount of investment， but who the hell know where the money go，who the hell know any so-called knowledge learned

Best way to get money

 

[Akasa]

CAC is currently working on JF-17 Block III, quite advanced for a size like JF-17!

and regarding this FC-31 model, it is more like a demonstrator of China's second type stealth fighter, and its offsprings will be an export version of medium sized stealth fighter, and a family of medium sized stealth fighter for China's ever expending navies

now lets talk about the export version of this stealth fighter, people normally think stealth fighter is too expensive for some countries that do not have the money and size like U.S and China has.

but the revolutionary concept of this stealth fighter is that it has developed into two versions (much like the commercial cars, there is economical model and there is a premium one), a highly geared version uses all the latest techs (well, allowed by the government thought), and a standerd version with all the necessary kicks (can still achieve 4S).

Thank to the SAC has developed this platform with open interface programme and modularization technology, that allows financially limited countries to have the oppotunity to build a stealth fleet

Despite all the talk from Aviation Week and numerous Chinese sources, we should still treat rumors as rumors until more concrete evidence comes in.

Not saying that there is zero possibility of the FC-31 being the basis of the PLAN's next-generation fighter, but there is no guarantee either.

Wait and see.

 

[GriffinsRule]

Pakistan will learn nothing from the FC-31 in regards to aircraft development. Its a finished product. The real groundwork for future of an aviation industry would be set by joining an effort in its onset, where we are involved in the actual planning, design considerations (not I want single engine or twin-engine blah blah but the nuts and bolts of engineering decisions and compromises etc), building up the system/software architecture and implementation of all the hundreds and thousands of aspects of the aircraft design are made.

If we buy the FC-31 whatever, it would be the largest fraud and disservice to the future generations of Pakistan.

Gladly, it seems the PAF leadership has a similar vision of what they want to accomplish in the long term and are not running to the Chinese for an off the shelf purchase. In the 15yr interim, upgrading JF-17 and later the F-16s will be more than enough to keep Indians at bay, supported by all our other assets.

 

[rcrmj]

Despite all the talk from Aviation Week and numerous Chinese sources, we should still treat rumors as rumors until more concrete evidence comes in.

Not saying that there is zero possibility of the FC-31 being the basis of the PLAN's next-generation fighter, but there is no guarantee either.

Wait and see.

you need to wait, as time can clear out rumors, but not fact, as fact is there, always there, cant be changed by, lets say personal opinions``?

Pakistan will learn nothing from the FC-31 in regards to aircraft development. Its a finished product. The real groundwork for future of an aviation industry would be set by joining an effort in its onset, where we are involved in the actual planning, design considerations (not I want single engine or twin-engine blah blah but the nuts and bolts of engineering decisions and compromises etc), building up the system/software architecture and implementation of all the hundreds and thousands of aspects of the aircraft design are made.

If we buy the FC-31 whatever, it would be the largest fraud and disservice to the future generations of Pakistan.

Gladly, it seems the PAF leadership has a similar vision of what they want to accomplish in the long term and are not running to the Chinese for an off the shelf purchase. In the 15yr interim, upgrading JF-17 and later the F-16s will be more than enough to keep Indians at bay, supported by all our other assets.

aviation sector isnt something that can be done with "visions", the hundres and thousands of bits and bots do not come from one R&D center or one factory, but hundreds if not thousands. "drawing" a PPT is one thing (least savvy```), but having hundreds reliable suppliers that are ready and upto the requirement isnt something can be done collectively.

for the time being, in this world that we are living in (not some Indian or Turkish or Iranian delusion), that there are only two blocks that is up to the task, the western block led by the U.S and the East block led by China (used to be Russia, but now it relies on West or China for bits and bots for their aviation industry)````

India will have 5th gen stealth fighter one way or another, you cant rely on 4th gen fighter to deal with 5th gen threat````so it leaves the question of choosing China or U.S for PAF's 5th gen fleet?

 

[帅的一匹]

you need to wait, as time can clear out rumors, but not fact, as fact is there, always there, cant be changed by, lets say personal opinions``?



aviation sector isnt something that can be done with "visions", the hundres and thousands of bits and bots do not come from one R&D center or one factory, but hundreds if not thousands. "drawing" a PPT is one thing (least savvy```), but having hundreds reliable suppliers that are ready and upto the requirement isnt something can be done collectively.

for the time being, in this world that we are living in (not some Indian or Turkish or Iranian delusion), that there are only two blocks that is up to the task, the western block led by the U.S and the East block led by China (used to be Russia, but now it relies on West or China for bits and bots for their aviation industry)````

India will have 5th gen stealth fighter one way or another, you cant rely on 4th gen fighter to deal with 5th gen threat````so it leaves the question of choosing China or U.S for PAF's 5th gen fleet?

thats realistic.

 

[serenity]

Internal bays is so hard to build into a fighter. Korea changed plans already. Turkey may insist and get main bays but side bays will be very hard for medium engines. They will need large TFX for side bays + main bays. So I am willing to bet they end up with no side bays like F35, PAKFA, KFX, and FC-31. None have side bays and only PAKFA is two heavy thrust engined fighter of the bunch. Side bays mostly for air to air missiles so not for bombing. Pakistan will want their first 5th generation fighter to be air superiority mission role. Not for bombing targets. They have missiles and rockets already and other planes can drop bombs when PAF has air superiority. No money for two FG fighters. Pick one and make it good and work well for PAF for okay price. Pakistan is not wealthy nation and should not be spending so much on military. We are not United States and cannot just keep telling everyone our money is worth XYZ. Otherwise we will go bankrupt. USA never goes bankrupt because they can change the definition.

FC-31 is not finished. TFX barely to prototype stage. Who knows which will be better and when they can be finished products. Only PAF who will become a buyer will really know when they test it and they will decide what conditions and situations is best for them. If PAF buys FG fighter, they will definitely go with one of these.

 

[chengdusudise]

here we have some pak friends believe a country only assembly F16 so far can develope a 5th G fighter. and they seriously consider putting money into it and learn to build 5th G fighter,what can i say.best lucky for them

 

[Fawadqasim1]

Hi,

I think the project with Turkey is the begining of of a massive FRAUD BY PAF---. They are finding ways to milk more money and more jobs outside of pakistan---.

There is no reason to go for the TFX---. FC31 is the aircraft---if they want a single engine---then they can talk to the chinese about that---.

TFX is a project too far away---with a lots of ifs and buts---.

Paf would be sabotaging the defences of pakistan one more time if it heads that way---.

I 10 years time---the chinese EW package would far exceed what the Turks might have to offer---.

Absolutely bullseye sir.
Turkey has nothing no engine no prototype airframe

 

[Dazzler]

here we have some pak friends believe a country only assembly F16 so far can develope a 5th G fighter. and they seriously consider putting money into it and learn to build 5th G fighter,what can i say.best lucky for them

Chinese expertise has been sought in Azm from the word go. No way Pak can make a 5g fighter on their own this early. Thanks to China, we managed to manage a good chunk of the jf-17 at home.

 

[LKJ86]

here we have some pak friends believe a country only assembly F16 so far can develope a 5th G fighter. and they seriously consider putting money into it and learn to build 5th G fighter,what can i say.best lucky for them

When Turkey's TF-X is ready, maybe 5.5th or 6th generation fighters of USA and China have been in service already...
And J-20 also can be exported at that time...

 

[Beast]

J-20 is a very complex and engineering marvel. Kowtow to Chinese engineer.

- a low RCS
-decent size weapon bay
-while still maintain good aerodynamic to be agile.
- on top of that , large amount of avionics and subsystem need for be fitted in.

Seriously, PA shall stick with a proven aviation giant of fc-31.

 

[python-000]

J-20 is a very complex and engineering marvel. Kowtow to Chinese engineer.

- a low RCS
-decent size weapon bay
-while still maintain good aerodynamic to be agile.
- on top of that , large amount of avionics and subsystem need for be fitted in.

Seriously, PA shall stick with a proven aviation giant of fc-31.

Bro' i totally agree with you...

 

[messiach]

I am not able to confirm procurement of an 'interim fighter'. This is not feasible. Maybe these guys can @MastanKhan @Quwa @Oscar

The linchpin to NGF would be the turbofan. Because we do'nt have the fabtech backbone, our turbine options are restricted to begging,borrowing or stealing. Turkey is in no position to offer either. We need Russian assistance just the way FC1 was approached.