SAC - FC-31 Grey Falcon Stealth aircraft for PAF : Updates & Debate

[Trango Towers]

its a long journey ....

always glass half full.
there are some who still doubt our abilities

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

always glass half full.
there are some who still doubt our abilities

I'd put it this way... What Pakistan can do itself, it'll apply it on Azm. What Pakistan can't do, it'll rely on a trusted partner. Mixing indigenous with reliance on overseas is the reality for everyone except for the US, China and Russia. We should make sure that our partners won't drop us on the 11th hour.

 

[Trango Towers]

I'd put it this way... What Pakistan can do itself, it'll apply it on Azm. What Pakistan can't do, it'll rely on a trusted partner. Mixing indigenous with reliance on overseas is the reality for everyone except for the US, China and Russia. We should make sure that our partners won't drop us on the 11th hour.

I agree...also we dont need to reinvent the wheel. Even if you look at f22 f35 eurofighter their parts come from many sources. Sure we have weaknesses but we are a long way from the 1970. Sadly some people here are still at the toyota corolla stage and only imported things are good

 

[Silicon0000]

PAF future is only F-16, JF-17 block xyz & B variant and Project AZM FGF (Different variant/ blocks).

Rest (J10, F31 etc) all are only in case of need things.

 

[SQ8]

@Horus @Oscar what are your thoughts on the PAF getting the FC-31 off the shelf as a bridge fighter in the lead up to Project Azm?

I'm asking because Alan Warnes, after speaking to the CAS, said Azm would fly within 10 years and is to fully materialize (I'm guessing be in service in healthy numbers?) by 2047. The CAS also framed Azm as a "5/6 gen fighter" ?

That leaves a gap in the 2020s and 2030s where the older F-16s and JF-17s must go. The latter can probably go via a Block-IV/V, but the former?

As I see it, we might see an interim FGF bid between the FC-31 and the TFX (remember, Warnes said last year it'd figure into the PAF's plans, and ACM Aman said something re: working with Turkey on a next gen fighter).

It is possible to have an interim 5th generation element for force transition and familiarity but it brings with it its own support issues, along with ensuring that a potent enough power plant exists to avoid the early issues the J-20 had.

It may be possible to do a small buy of some 30-40 each provided we can secure the most open variant of LO tech from China due to their reservations regarding the PAF being too exposed to US equipment and training which leaves the high possibility of moles.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

It is possible to have an interim 5th generation element for force transition and familiarity but it brings with it its own support issues, along with ensuring that a potent enough power plant exists to avoid the early issues the J-20 had.

It may be possible to do a small buy of some 30-40 each provided we can secure the most open variant of LO tech from China due to their reservations regarding the PAF being too exposed to US equipment and training which leaves the high possibility of moles.

If there's room for an interim fighter, I'd also keep an eye on the TF-X as an option too. If anything, there's at least some economies of scale involved thanks to Turkey procuring the fighter.

Moreover, the previous PAF CAS had said, "We are also collaborating with Turkey for developing a next generation aircraft," (source) and Alan Warnes saying, "No Pak agreement with TAI on TF-X, but sometime in near future it's likely to figure in PAF's new generation fighter aircraft requirement," (source). The big issue though is that the time gap between it and Azm would be around 5-6 years, which negates the interim/bridge factor a bit.

You and @messiach will find this interesting, the Turkish Gov't has opted to work on an original turbofan design from TR Motor (which is a big leap of faith, even if overseas collaboration is involved -- source)

 

[Thorough Pro]

That collaboration may be limited to certain technologies only and not the whole project. I don't think PAF has the budget to afford two seperate next gen programs.

If there's room for an interim fighter, I'd also keep an eye on the TF-X as an option too. If anything, there's at least some economies of scale involved thanks to Turkey procuring the fighter.

Moreover, the previous PAF CAS had said, "We are also collaborating with Turkey for developing a next generation aircraft," (source) and Alan Warnes saying, "No Pak agreement with TAI on TF-X, but sometime in near future it's likely to figure in PAF's new generation fighter aircraft requirement," (source). The big issue though is that the time gap between it and Azm would be around 5-6 years, which negates the interim/bridge factor a bit.

You and @messiach will find this interesting, the Turkish Gov't has opted to work on an original turbofan design from TR Motor (which is a big leap of faith, even if overseas collaboration is involved -- source)

 

[HRK]

If there's room for an interim fighter, I'd also keep an eye on the TF-X as an option too. If anything, there's at least some economies of scale involved thanks to Turkey procuring the fighter.

Moreover, the previous PAF CAS had said, "We are also collaborating with Turkey for developing a next generation aircraft," (source) and Alan Warnes saying, "No Pak agreement with TAI on TF-X, but sometime in near future it's likely to figure in PAF's new generation fighter aircraft requirement," (source). The big issue though is that the time gap between it and Azm would be around 5-6 years, which negates the interim/bridge factor a bit.

You and @messiach will find this interesting, the Turkish Gov't has opted to work on an original turbofan design from TR Motor (which is a big leap of faith, even if overseas collaboration is involved -- source)

Previous Minister of Defence Production Rana Tanveer in one of his interview stated the cooperation is related to subsystem integration, but unfortunately he didn't clarify it in detail

 

[rcrmj]

CAC is currently working on JF-17 Block III, quite advanced for a size like JF-17!

and regarding this FC-31 model, it is more like a demonstrator of China's second type stealth fighter, and its offsprings will be an export version of medium sized stealth fighter, and a family of medium sized stealth fighter for China's ever expending navies

now lets talk about the export version of this stealth fighter, people normally think stealth fighter is too expensive for some countries that do not have the money and size like U.S and China has.

but the revolutionary concept of this stealth fighter is that it has developed into two versions (much like the commercial cars, there is economical model and there is a premium one), a highly geared version uses all the latest techs (well, allowed by the government thought), and a standerd version with all the necessary kicks (can still achieve 4S).

Thank to the SAC has developed this platform with open interface programme and modularization technology, that allows financially limited countries to have the oppotunity to build a stealth fleet

 

[Silicon0000]

CAC is currently working on JF-17 Block III, quite advanced for a size like JF-17!

and regarding this FC-31 model, it is more like a demonstrator of China's second type stealth fighter, and its offsprings will be an export version of medium sized stealth fighter, and a family of medium sized stealth fighter for China's ever expending navies

now lets talk about the export version of this stealth fighter, people normally think stealth fighter is too expensive for some countries that do not have the money and size like U.S and China has.

but the revolutionary concept of this stealth fighter is that it has developed into two versions (much like the commercial cars, there is economical model and there is a premium one), a highly geared version uses all the latest techs (well, allowed by the government thought), and a standerd version with all the necessary kicks (can still achieve 4S).

Thank to the CAC has developed this platform with open interface programme and modularization technology, that allows financially limited countries to have the oppotunity to build a stealth fleet

CAC medium size stealth fighter ???

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Previous Minister of Defence Production Rana Tanveer in one of his interview stated the cooperation is related to subsystem integration, but unfortunately he didn't clarify it in detail

That predates Alan Warnes' point, in later PAF statements (e.g. ACM Aman) it seemed the TF-X could be more than integration work.

 

[messiach]

I am not aware of an 'interim fighter jet' procurement.

If there's room for an interim fighter, I'd also keep an eye on the TF-X as an option too.

Referring to NGF we are better-off with Russia +/- China. Turbofan will decide its ultimate fate.

You and @messiach will find this interesting, the Turkish Gov't has opted to work on an original turbofan design from TR Motor (which is a big leap of faith, even if overseas collaboration is involved -- source)

@gambit @CriticalThought good arguments.

 

[Thorough Pro]

Maybe it was only for the targeting pods, or some 5th Gen technology from Turkish program that can be adopted for Pakistani program. Who knows?

Previous Minister of Defence Production Rana Tanveer in one of his interview stated the cooperation is related to subsystem integration, but unfortunately he didn't clarify it in detail

 

[rcrmj]

CAC medium size stealth fighter ???

my mistake SAC```````

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Maybe it was only for the targeting pods, or some 5th Gen technology from Turkish program that can be adopted for Pakistani program. Who knows?

Some additional statements by Pakistani officials in the months following the former MoDP's statements:

“Importantly, joint collaboration on 5th generation fighter aircraft, commonly known as Turkish Fighter Development [TF-X] Program, will be a true flagship project between Pakistan and Turkey. Currently, the details and scope of collaboration and participation is being worked between the two governments for jointly undertaking this strategic project, which would further open new vistas of mutual cooperation of defence industries of the two countries.”​

November 2016, then Secretary of the MoDP, Lt. Gen (retired) Syed Muhammad Owais:

Source: Birol Tekince. “IDEAS serves as a platform to portray a positive and realistic image of Pakistan.” MSI Turkish Defence Review. November 2016. Issue. 31.

“We are integrating our technology with friendly countries, including Turkey. We are thinking of producing the next-generation aircraft by pooling resources with them. For this, the basic framework and agreements have been made,” and “We are also collaborating with Turkey for developing a next generation aircraft.”

April 2017, then Chief of Air Staff of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF), Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman.

Source: Bol Narratives (link)

No Pak agreement with TAI on TF-X, but sometime in near future it's likely to figure in PAF's new generation fighter aircraft requirement.

Alan Warnes

Source: Twitter
​

Granted, it doesn't outright say the PAF would commit to the TFX, but the TFX is in its early stages as well. If our top level officials are touting it directly or indirectly, then it might be more than just some minor work. The T129 and MILGEM are worth about $1bn and $1.5 bn, respectively, so a "flagship" project (the Secretary MoDP's words, not mine) should be worth more, right?