Russia's dreams come true in India with Putin's help

[Paan Singh]

The Indians are happy with the path they chose, and we are happy with ours.

Time will tell which path gives better results for our respective indigenous defence industries.

Foreign powers pressurize india with their own tricks like russia wants more sales of t-90's when our own arjun tank defeats anytime in battle and even U.S attaches strings to the equipments it supplies to us thats why U.S was thrown out of MMRCA.
So indian defence industry have become war zone for foreign powers and every body uses their tricks to get its own share and in this cat fight,indian indigenous industry is sacrificed.

 

[sancho]

Think local manufacture, reverse engineering..etc.



Yes it is, but products like the J-10 also show that the level of dependance is reducing .. not rapidly.. but it is.
The issue of dependance on engines has more to do with metallurgy than design.

Of course they are reducing it, but by far not as fast as people thinks and J10 is actually a prove for it as well. Design, weapons mainly from foreign designs, engines still Russian, radars claimed to have Russian techs as well. Where China shows their indigenous capabilities is J10B, indigenously developed design changes, AESA/PESA radar, modernised avionics... and the same dependance is visible for their stealth fighters as well.
I said it before that I admire Chinas production capability, but their own development capabilities are still not as far as it looks like and that might change only in the next decade.

 

[SQ8]

The Indians are happy with the path they chose, and we are happy with ours.

Time will tell which path gives better results for our respective indigenous defence industries.

Eventually, the Indian path may prevail as it leads to transfer of knowledge in critical systems such as Radars .. and not information sourcing like the Chinese way since it is one of the main reasons the WS series is having hiccups.

Each has a lot or refine in their process. Once has to look beyond sticking to the Copy-then-Kaizen Approach while the other has to get rid of its ramshackle of bureaucracy and immature approach to achievements.

 

[Merilion]

The Indians are happy with the path they chose, and we are happy with ours.

Time will tell which path gives better results for our respective indigenous defence industries.

will? isn't it already 'told'?

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

Eventually, the Indian path may prevail as it leads to transfer of knowledge in critical systems such as Radars .. and not information sourcing like the Chinese way since it is one of the main reasons the WS series is having hiccups.

Indian path may potentially succeed if there is aggressive effort on Indian local R&D (majority of it coming from Private sector)

 

[Merilion]

Each has a lot or refine in their process. Once has to look beyond sticking to the Copy-then-Kaizen Approach while the other has to get rid of its ramshackle of bureaucracy and immature approach to achievements.

in school everyone copy from their teachers; everyone copy 'hello world'; the diff is someone has the abilities to learn and move on while some others don't even understand how to copy but cry

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Of course they are reducing it, but by far not as fast as people thinks and J10 is actually a prove for it as well. Design, weapons mainly from foreign designs, engines still Russian, radars claimed to have Russian techs as well. Where China shows their indigenous capabilities is J10B, indigenously developed design changes, AESA/PESA radar, modernised avionics... and the same dependance is visible for their stealth fighters as well.
I said it before that I admire Chinas production capability, but their own development capabilities are still not as far as it looks like and that might change only in the next decade.

Sure, there is still a big gap (for example with aircraft engines)... but I'm sure you can agree that our goal SHOULD be to bridge that gap?

The world is a hard place. Do you think the Westerners asked our permission before they stole Chinese inventions (gunpowder + artillery) and used them to kill us?

When it comes to defending our country no expense can be spared. The Americans and the Russians knew this after WW2 when they took all the German scientists/engineers and used them to increase their own capabilities.

Sure, you can say we have reverse engineered things before. But when the gap is so large, what can you do? The important thing now is that if we are in a war, and we need to bring the full capabilities of our manufacturing base to bear, we can manufacture J-11B's with our own engines (WS-10A) in massive numbers without having to ask anyone's permission.

Shenyang WS-10 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That is in our national interest. India chose a different path, and only time will tell which path is better for both of our indigenous defence industries.

 

[jbond197]

in school everyone copy from their teachers; everyone copy 'hello world'; the diff is someone has the abilities to learn and move on while some others don't even understand how to copy but cry

What you are claiming to be copying can be best claimed as training. That involves no stealing of others work, repainting it and claiming it as yours.. Dude, nothing can be done for you, when your basics itself are wrong.

 

[Merilion]

What you are claiming to be copying can be best claimed as training. That involves no stealing of others work, repainting it and claiming it as yours.. Dude, nothing can be done for you, when your basics itself are wrong.

dude, US used to copy;RU used to copy;Jap used to copy;SK used to copy and is still copying...is this really that hard to understand?

 

[jbond197]

dude, US used to copy;RU used to copy;Jap used to copy;SK used to copy and is still copying...is this really that hard to understand?

My point was not about whether you can copy or not but was about what you can classify as copy? You gave examples of teachers passing knowledge to kids as copying which was plain wrong.

And I didn't say copying it wrong or something. For the case of US, Russia they employed a lot of German scientist and developed their systems based on their knowledge. I am not sure if they ever signed a defense deal with any one and ended up reverse engineering the stuff they bought.

 

[SQ8]

What you are claiming to be copying can be best claimed as training. That involves no stealing of others work, repainting it and claiming it as yours.. Dude, nothing can be done for you, when your basics itself are wrong.

Incorrect approach and rather juvenile reply on your part considering you should be setting the example.
The painting and copying bit may have been true for the F-6 and F-7 series to an extent(ending with the F-7E series).
But the current Chinese aircraft and weapon systems are so much more.

Fairly deplorable that you reduced it to that.

 

[sancho]

Sure, there is still a big gap (for example with aircraft engines)... but I'm sure you can agree that our goal SHOULD be to bridge that gap?

Of course, but there are different ways to do it, the way China does with Russia and the way India does with Russia and you hardly can deny, that if China could do co-developments with Russia, it would be way more beneficial for China, than taking Russian designs and then to develop it to the NG alone right?
We got (nearly) the same Flankers as you did, but we now close the gap jointly with Russia, while you still need to buy certain things from them, whenever one of your developments might stuck.

Sure, you can say we have reverse engineered things before. But when the gap is so large, what can you do?

It's the same mistake that you do with your foreign policy, you take the aggressive route even against countries where it wouldn't be neccessary. You reverse engineering got you more limitations than benefits, since a lot of countries denies modern techs to you. Just like threatening other countries won't make you more reliable as a possible partner either.
Without the border issues and if we would look beyond the war in the past, China and India have good political and economical relations. Both countries have even similar needs in terms of technological improvements, or energy supply for the future. So without such issues, don't you think both countries could had joined for an engine development, to close the gap to the west together, than trying it alone in different ways? That would have made both countries less dependent on other foreign countries as well.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Of course, but there are different ways to do it, the way China does with Russia and the way India does with Russia and you hardly can deny, that if China could do co-developments with Russia, it would be way more beneficial for China, than taking Russian designs and then to develop it to the NG alone right?
We got (nearly) the same Flankers as you did, but we now close the gap jointly with Russia, while you still need to buy certain things from them, whenever one of your developments might stuck.

But if we did co-developments, then it would not fully belong to us.

You can say much of the J-11B with the WS-10A engine is reverse engineered, but it belongs to us fully. What is the point of having such a large manufacturing base if we can't produce as many as we want to in wartime?

We got 5th generation fighter technology too, by hook or crook. Soon we will be mass producing J-20's and J-31's without having to ask for permission from any other country. You can question/criticize our methods absolutely, but at the end of the day we have it in our hands, and it belongs to us.

It's the same mistake that you do with your foreign policy, you take the aggressive route even against countries where it wouldn't be neccessary. You reverse engineering got you more limitations than benefits, since a lot of countries denies modern techs to you. Just like threatening other countries won't make you more reliable as a possible partner either.
Without the border issues and if we would look beyond the war in the past, China and India have good political and economical relations. Both countries have even similar needs in terms of technological improvements, or energy supply for the future. So without such issues, don't you think both countries could had joined for an engine development, to close the gap to the west together, than trying it alone in different ways? That would have made both countries less dependent on other foreign countries as well.

Like I said, the world is a hard place.

China invented Firearms and Artillery, but the West did not think twice before they used our own inventions to kill our people and enslave our country.

History of the firearm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Artillery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We need to be more realistic. When China was a great power, we did not use our technological advantages to the full, instead letting others use them to destroy us. Now we are so far behind, we cannot spare any expense to catch up. History has taught us the consequences of falling behind.

 

[jbond197]

Incorrect approach and rather juvenile reply on your part considering you should be setting the example.
The painting and copying bit may have been true for the F-6 and F-7 series to an extent(ending with the F-7E series).
But the current Chinese aircraft and weapon systems are so much more.

Fairly deplorable that you reduced it to that.

What I said in that post was for example sake and not in reference to what China is doing. I know China has developed huge capabilities around reverse engineering and it is not about repainting stuff anymore.

 

[sancho]

But if we did co-developments, then it would not fully belong to us.

You can say much of the J-11B with the WS-10A engine is reverse engineered, but it belongs to us fully. What is the point of having such a large manufacturing base if we can't produce as many as we want to in wartime?

First of all you wouldn't go for a co-development with a partner you can't trust, but more importantly, you have access to the same knowledge as Russia would have as well and that for a way more capable engine. So in the same time that you spend to develop an engine that is comparable to AL 31, you could have jointly developed an 117S and gained much more on the industrial side as well. Now you have an engine that AFAIK still is not satisfactory in performance (similar to RD93 counterparts) and have not the knowledge to improve it to NG level, to use it on your stealth fighters and that's the reason why the Su35 and Russia is important again, since a 5th gen fighter is more than just a stealth airframe, but includes advanced radars, avionics and ENGINES as well!