Russian Fifth-Generation Fighter to Exceed Rivals

[amalakas]

Many of you have the idea that IRST sensors provide an image similar to the one the Predator had in the 1987 movie with the governator. And hence believe that IRST sensors will pick up a red blob / spot in a screen from a hot engine.
wrong.

here is an image from a previous generation QWIP IR detector.

This is from a detector not even 1/1000 as powerful as the one expected to be on the mature operational T50.

You want to tell me this thing will not pick up something metalic with clear temp differential from the ambient air ????

Look how it picks up individual leaves on the trees !

 

[inddef]

@chinaownseverything : i am starting to doubt your smarts now.

 

[Chinaownseverything]

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...kYCuCw&usg=AFQjCNG7Xv8L9wP-h2TLQVYP39yCQPZZhg


What are you trying to prove? That aircraft such as E-2's use AESA? You should have learned from your other post that Weki can be garbage, much of the aircraft listed did not use AESA, instead AESA was in the development stages, Either way what were you trying to prove?

And it's you that has a hard time understanding.

AESA existed before metamaterials existed as a field of science. Therefore meta materials are not an integral part of AESA

That paper you posted just says that metamaterials can be used to make Antenna's. Notice the title says past, present and future developments? You can make batteries out of your own pee, whats your point?

Thanks captain obvious, but certain aluminums dominate the arospace industry:


MakeItFrom.com: 2024 Aluminum

Most of the aerospace industry is civilian jets, military jets they are definitely not made from AL2024, also there is not one type of metal that is used. When engineering something like a jet a heat analysis is done along with stress tests on every part. They will use stronger alloys for parts of the plane that takes more punishment, point of stagnation will have more pressure.

You were boasting that Chinese computers are better than Russian computers...

Radars are not computer

Russia Lags In Supercomputers, Medvedev Warns -- Supercomputers -- InformationWeek

Russia Lags In Supercomputers, Medvedev Warns

Russia ranks 15th on the list of countries with the most powerful supercomputers, he noted, and 95 percent of the machines are manufactured in the U.S.

So now China is behind in avioncs, shouldn't it be ahead because of it's science base and better computers?

And avionics in the US and Russia are allways chaging; for instance, the OLS-35 was a radical departure from previous systems, and DAS is also unique. There are always avionics breakthroughs, established feilds should be no excuse, infact it should be easyier since you are working with an existing technology instead of something new and unfamiliar.

Except this is a military field, North Korea can easily get an expert in say Europe to teach their guys about hydroelectric dams but not the same with military radars.

China has a lot of ground to cover, a difficult job even with a science base.

Russia is technologically backwards in the same sense being weak in industry but strong in military.

But in emerging fields they can keep up, for instance Quantum physics China currently holds 3 world records

China has world record for quantum teleportation

DailyTech - China Teleports Photons 10 Miles, Surpasses U.S./European Record

http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2010-06/chinese-researchers-tap-quantum-noise-generate-randomness-record-rates

The method is a bit mind-bending, but still more impressive is the output: 300 megabits per second of random data, blowing a 100-megabit record set by American scientists using a different method earlier this month clean out of the water. Which means the U.S. will now have to top the Chinese to stay ahead in the encryption game, setting up a competitive back-and-forth that should make true Cold Warriors wistful for the good old days

http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-news/4199761/Update-China-claims-record-in-quantum-cat-state

Update: China claims record in quantum cat state

 

[Devianz]

Many of you have the idea that IRST sensors provide an image similar to the one the Predator had in the 1987 movie with the governator. And hence believe that IRST sensors will pick up a red blob / spot in a screen from a hot engine.
wrong.

here is an image from a previous generation QWIP IR detector.

This is from a detector not even 1/1000 as powerful as the one expected to be on the mature operational T50.

You want to tell me this thing will not pick up something metalic with clear temp differential from the ambient air ????

Look how it picks up individual leaves on the trees !

Ahh.. thats exactly what most people think.
Now, the effectiveness of a modern high tech IRST can be explained from this figure. Even the level of detail shown on this low powered system is staggering.

Now, look at the lake on the bottom of the picture. See how the sand is glowing like lava compared to water in the lake. Also interesting to note the difference between metal body of those cars and its windshields. The temperature difference here is just a few degrees and look how the differences show up in the above pic.
It will clearly pic up the 1000 degree difference between exhaust gas and surrounding cooler air.

 

[dbc]

Many of you have the idea that IRST sensors provide an image similar to the one the Predator had in the 1987 movie with the governator. And hence believe that IRST sensors will pick up a red blob / spot in a screen from a hot engine.
wrong.

here is an image from a previous generation QWIP IR detector.


This is from a detector not even 1/1000 as powerful as the one expected to be on the mature operational T50.

You want to tell me this thing will not pick up something metalic with clear temp differential from the ambient air ????

Look how it picks up individual leaves on the trees !

the T-50's IR detector will be a 1000 times more powerful.
..individual leaves ... exaggerate much??

 

[Bhairava]

Only partial. Su-35 can support supersonic speed without afterburners, but it cant pass sound barrier without afterburners.

WTF....last time I heard...going in supersonic speed and breaking sound barriers are one and the same.

or am I missing something here.?

 

[Chogy]

WTF....last time I heard...going in supersonic speed and breaking sound barriers are one and the same.

or am I missing something here.?

He is correct. There is a drag "spike" as you approach Mach 1. Think of it like this... there is a modest wave traveling on the ocean, and you are swimming madly, chasing it. To cross into supersonic (the other side of the wave), you must climb the rear of the wave, cross over the peak, and then once on the other side, sliding down the face of the wave, the drag falls off, and less thrust is required.

It's a crude analogy, but you can definitely feel a vague wall at mach 1.0, and once on the other side of it, with all of the airflow over the airframe at > Mach 1.0, drag falls off, and less thrust is required to stay there.

In a clean F-15, at mil power, level flight, the machmeter will climb to 0.99 mach and hang up there. Tap the burners, you slide through. Now, reduced back to mil power, it will stay supersonic for several minutes. It eventually falls back to subsonic, but it takes quite a while.

On IRST and thermal imaging - I am not a huge fan. Most of the cool pictures we see here are at ranges that are FAR too close to compare to air combat - as distances increase to what would be considered normal, the IR signals fall off with the square of the distance. Add in dust, flares, clouds, additional range, and IRST begins to fail.

Add in a target aspect change from rear to something else, and the signal can easily vanish.

And how about daylight combat? A guy with outstanding eyes might see an enemy fighter at 12 to 15 miles. Unfortunately, that is close-ranged for missiles these days.

IRST / Thermal is not a solution or panacea for radar stealth.

 

[Devianz]

And how about daylight combat? A guy with outstanding eyes might see an enemy fighter at 12 to 15 miles. Unfortunately, that is close-ranged for missiles these days.

IRST / Thermal is not a solution or panacea for radar stealth.

What about daylight combat, how much difference would that make to an IRST?

 

[nicamarvin]

The topic of the thread is can the T-50 exceed the F-22.?.

Not when Mr Putin mix the word Cheap and T-50 in the same sentence, you just can´t hope to compete with the Raptor when your best asset its being cheap...


Go Raptor....

 

[ptldM3]

AESA existed before metamaterials existed as a field of science. Therefore meta materials are not an integral part of AESA

Now it makes sense why you posted this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-2_Hawkeye

First flight 1960

Did you think that just becuase the E-2 presently has EASA that it had it on its first flight?



The first airborn aircraft to receive AESA was the F-15, in the year 2000.

Raytheon Marks 10 Years of AESA Radar Flight -- FARNBOROUGH, England, July 21, 2010 /PRNewswire/ --

A squadron of Air Force F-15Cs was the first to become operational with the world's first tactical AESA radar systems in December 2000.

Further, you stated that metamaterials came along in 1990, lets take into account that AESA was used before 1990. I never claimed that AESA is solely reliant on metametamaterials, instead you claimed that AESA does not use metamaterial.

That paper you posted just says that metamaterials can be used to make Antenna's. Notice the title says past, present and future developments? You can make batteries out of your own pee, whats your point?

Still in denial? Lets look at another source--a scientific journal:


IEEE Xplore is Under Maintenance

Many think that radar is a mature field, nothing new to happen, it having been around a long time. Nothing can be further from the truth. When I entered the field in the '50s I thought the same thing. The MIT Radiation Lab. Series 28 book volume set summarizing the highly classified World War II work on radar was just published and provided the definitive coverage and there was to be nothing more to learn. How wrong I was. Since then many amazing new developments have taken place. Things are moving even faster now. We live in exciting times. Phased array radars and radars have seen in recent years breakthroughs that lead to capabilities not possible only a few years ago. This is exemplified by the development of GaAs integrated microwave circuits called monolithic microwave integrated circuits (MMIC) which makes it possible to build active electronically scanned arrays (AESAs) having lighter weight, smaller volume, higher reliability and lower cost. MMIC allows the construction of AESAs for applications not feasible before. This integration has reached the point where it is possible to now build a low cost 35 GHz phased array for a missile seeker costing $40/element (total cost of array including all electronics divided by number of elements). The advances provided by Moore's Law has now made it is feasible to do digital beam forming with all its numerous advantages. One advantage of digital beamforming is the ability to lower the search power and occupancy by up to a factor of two. Another advantage is that it makes it possible to achieve the performance of a fully adaptive array without having to do a large matrix inversion, i.e., it makes adaptive-adaptive array processing or equivalently principal decomposition feasible. Also covered will be: the potential for GaN and SiC chips which have the capability of a factor of ten higher peak power than GaAs chips; arrays with instantaneous bandwidths of up to 33:1; SiGe low cost T/R modules; low cost MEMS arrays; meta- materials which provide negative refractivity possibly allowing focusing beyond the diffraction limit; a real radar application for Multiple-Input Multiple-Output (MIMO) as opposed to fantasy has been demonstrated by Lincoln Laboratory MIT which allows the coherent combining of two radars to achieve a 9 dB increase in sensitivity; the ability to build microwave tubes that are smaller, more power efficient, lighter, require lower voltages and have lower cost.

So how many times were you proved wrong?

Most of the aerospace industry is civilian jets, military jets they are definitely not made from AL2024, also there is not one type of metal that is used. When engineering something like a jet a heat analysis is done along with stress tests on every part. They will use stronger alloys for parts of the plane that takes more punishment, point of stagnation will have more pressure.

Really?

Let see:


2024 Aluminum Alloy - Aviation Metals

Alloy 2024 plate products are used in fuselage structurals, wing tension members, shear webs and ribs and structural areas where stiffness, fatigue performance and good strength are required. Sheet products, usually alclad, are used extensively in commercial and military aircraft for fuselage skins, wing skins and engine areas where elevated temperatures to 250°F (121°C) are often encountered.

To reiterate my point, most of the alloys used in the F-22 are common on other aircraft too, the only difference is that the F-22 uses more of the good stuff such as titanium, even Boing has acknowledged that the parts they manufacture for the F-22 are mostly titanium and aluminum alloys by weight.



Your're badly underestimating Russia based on fact that Russia has less research papers than China, and thus because of that you are are comming to conclusions that China can manufacture something better than the pak-fa and that Chinese technology rivals US technology. Like i mentioned that is flawed thinking, becuase there are many countries that rank fairly low in material sciences that produce amazing technology. Likewise there are countries that rank high that do not produce anything ground breaking.


With that said, even if the pak-fa doesn't have as advanced composites as the F-22 it would make little difference because the pak-fa will still be light and strong just like other Russian aircraft.


Still think Russia neglects nano technology or has no experience?

SpringerLink -

With a budget of up to $10 billion (USD) in government funds, RUSNANO co-invests in nanotechnology projects in areas such as solar energy, composite materials, nano-biotechnology, and mechanical engineering that have high potential for commercial or social benefit. RUSNANO stipulates that all companies that win funding must operate in Russia. Its goal is to ensure the production of the value of Russia’s nanotechnology industry reaches $30 billion by 2015.

Nano technology being taken vary serious and as a result many innovations are being made, lets say that Russian composites lag behind many countries, but there is one factor not taken into account, Russia has been able to examine many forign aircraft everything from F-4's, F-5's, Mirage, perhaps F-16's from Venuzuela and of course the F-117 wreckage from Kosovo.

Russia Offers India $8 Billion Weapons Deal

The Serbs are believed to have invited Russian personnel to inspect the remains.

Senior Russian aerospace officials admitted that the F-117 was being used to test new anti-stealth.

So not only did Russia test the alloy composition of the F-117 but also the radar absorbent material among other things.

Radars are not computer

Wow, just wow, a radar is made up of many components, here's a few: entanna, transmiter modules, and of course the radar computer.

The computer processes: aerial targets, provides terrain mapping, distiguishes clutter, and assignes targets.

And who said radars are computers? A radar is full of computers, those same computers allow the above functions to be possible.

But in emerging fields they can keep up, for instance Quantum physics China currently holds 3 world records

China has world record for quantum teleportation

DailyTech - China Teleports Photons 10 Miles, Surpasses U.S./European Record

I can pull up random articals claiming that Russia has created the worlds first this and that, or discovered this or that. For instance:


CBC News - Technology & Science - U.S., Russian scientists create element 117

Researchers working at a particle accelerator at the Flerov Laboratory of Nuclear Reactions in Dubna, 120 kilometres north of Moscow, created six atoms of element 117.


The discovery fills in the gap between the previously synthesized elements 116 and 118, meaning all the elements with atomic numbers between one and 118 have been observed.

"During a long (half a year) experiment, six events of the 'birth' of the new element were registered," A.N. Sissakian of the Joint Institute for Nuclear Research in Dubna said in a statement.

 

[Chinaownseverything]

Now it makes sense why you posted this:


Did you think that just becuase the E-2 presently has EASA that it had it on its first flight?



The first airborn aircraft to receive AESA was the F-15, in the year 2000.

Raytheon Marks 10 Years of AESA Radar Flight -- FARNBOROUGH, England, July 21, 2010 /PRNewswire/ --

Look as I explained, Phased array radars have been around for a long time. They were just too big and heavy to be put on planes, hence why I called AESA old technology because we already had it, we just couldn't put it into a plane till we could shrink it into the size of a carton of milk

Active Electronically Scanned Array - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

AESAs are the result of further developments in solid-state electronics. In earlier systems the broadcast signal was originally created in a klystron or traveling wave tube or similar device, which are relatively large. Receiver electronics were also large due to the high frequencies that they worked with. The introduction of gallium arsenide microelectronics through the 1980s served to greatly reduce the size of the receiver elements, until effective ones could be built at sizes similar to those of handheld radios, only a few cubic centimeters in volume. The introduction of JFETs and MESFETs did the same to the transmitter side of the systems as well. Now an entire radar, the transmitter, receiver and antenna, could be shrunk into a single "transmitter-receiver module" (TRM) about the size of a carton of milk.

Further, you stated that metamaterials came along in 1990, lets take into account that AESA was used before 1990. I never claimed that AESA is solely reliant on metametamaterials, instead you claimed that AESA does not use metamaterial.

Still in denial? Lets look at another source--a scientific journal:


IEEE Xplore is Under Maintenance

So how many times were you proved wrong?

Thankfully as a practicing engineer I have access to the IEEE database so I can call out your bullshit

As you can see the only mention of metamaterials in regard to radars is that they can use metamaterials to make stealth planes that can make it diffucult for AESA to detect.

Not as you implied that AESA radars made by Russia have metamaterials

Really?

Let see:


2024 Aluminum Alloy - Aviation Metals

Wait, you do realize that different metals are used for different planes right? A military aircraft can mean anything, including a helicopter, transport plane, subsonic fighters, subsonic bombers etc....

Show me that AL 2024 is specifically used by supersonic Jet fighters that can hit mach 2 like the F-22.

Wow, just wow, a radar is made up of many components, here's a few: entanna, transmiter modules, and of course the radar computer.

The computer processes: aerial targets, provides terrain mapping, distiguishes clutter, and assignes targets.

And who said radars are computers? A radar is full of computers, those same computers allow the above functions to be possible.

If I took a sensor connected it to a bunch of resistors and capacitors and then to a motor and designed the circuit so that when say the sensor hit 100 volts that the voltage to the motor would be 0. Would you say that is a computer?

So why would you say that a radiation sensor sending voltages to a pad that lights up to form pictures a computer?

I can pull up random articals claiming that Russia has created the worlds first this and that, or discovered this or that. For instance:


CBC News - Technology & Science - U.S., Russian scientists create element 117

[/QUOTE]

My only point of posting China's achievements is that you implied that China was not technologically advanced because they couldn't create modern avionics, posting those articles proved that China was cutting edge in emerging fields and that they don't just write papers on make new condoms like you constantly claim.

 

[Devianz]

So why would you say that a radiation sensor sending voltages to a pad that lights up to form pictures a computer?

You really have no idea how a modern radar works. It's not as simple as a CRO you used in your school days. I bet your resistors, capacitors and connecting wires will also calculate the distance and direction of your target for you not to mention millions of other calculations and filtering that are required.

 

[SBD-3]

You really have no idea how a modern radar works. It's not as simple as a CRO you used in your school days. I bet your resistors, capacitors and connecting wires will also calculate the distance and direction of your target for you not to mention millions of other calculations and filtering that are required.

can you plz explain how does it work????

 

[ptldM3]

I added more information in my previous post.

Thankfully as a practicing engineer I have access to the IEEE database so I can call out your bullshit

As you can see the only mention of metamaterials in regard to radars is that they can use metamaterials to make stealth planes that can make it diffucult for AESA to detect.

Not as you implied that AESA radars made by Russia have metamaterials

Someone that's in denial and someone that has been wrong 90% of the time is "calling my bullshit".....priceless.

I gave you atleast two link, yet you ignored them.

Take a look at the following and this time take off your blindfold.

http://www.rfalliance.org/2010 conference/presentations/04 Eli Brookner.pdf

If I took a sensor connected it to a bunch of resistors and capacitors and then to a motor and designed the circuit so that when say the sensor hit 100 volts that the voltage to the motor would be 0. Would you say that is a computer?

So why would you say that a radiation sensor sending voltages to a pad that lights up to form pictures a computer?

Oh boy....

All radars have a main computer that processes incoming information via antenna and transmitters to, for example, the LCM's. Things such as capacitors are scattered through out and are just an extension of the main radar computer.

Take a look:

http://www.esicomputing.com/documents/IEEE.pdf

Main Radar Computer
The main radar computer is responsible for
coordinating all aspects of the radar. The main computer’s
real-time program (RTP) is developed to be common
across all the KMR radars, which is accomplished by
writing software that is parameter-driven and hardwareindependent.
As described earlier, hardware-independence
is achieved using subsystems to abstract the underlying
radar hardware. Parameter files are used to configure the
RTP for a specific radar; these parameters include radar
frequencies, available waveforms, and beamwidths.
The RTP performs the following major functions:

• Coherent pulse integration and detection,
• Signature and catalog data recording,
• Multiple-target tracking,
• Target classification,
• Display generation and button processing,
• Subsystem communication,
• Track file maintenance.

Earlier did i not mention that the radar computer is responsible for things such as target classification as stated in the source?

Here is more:

http://www.esicomputing.com/documents/IEEE.pdf

Radar systems have historically employed tightly
integrated designs, custom hardware, and proprietary
interfaces. ROSA replaces the tightly integrated design
with subsystems for each major radar component. These
intelligent subsystems (also called radar peripherals)
perform all interface functions between the high-level main
computer and low-level radar electronics. This
configuration provides an important level of abstraction
that dramatically increases the level of hardwareindependent
software within the main radar computer. As
the main computer software is not dependent on the
underlying hardware, it is very portable from radar to
radar.
Communication between the subsystem components
and the main computer is key to the success of a ROSA
architecture. Subsystems act as a software object that
performs specific functions based on control messages;
specifically, a high-level control message is passed from
the main computer to the subsystems using a single
commercial network interface.

My only point of posting China's achievements is that you implied that China was not technologically advanced because they couldn't create modern avionics, posting those articles proved that China was cutting edge in emerging fields and that they don't just write papers on make new condoms like you constantly claim.

Back up, it was you that started claiming that Russia is behind and that China can create something better than the pak-fa. I only mentioned China's struggles with engines because you claimed China's research into science is an indication that China can create better things than Russia and that Chinese technology rivals the US, clearly all that scientific research isn't helping China develope angines superior to Russian's engines. And the condom anology was an axample that much of the material science is not applicable to the military, for instance, creating a better condom that uses new rubber will fall under material science---which means nothing in terms of military aviation.

 

[500]

The first airborn aircraft to receive AESA was the F-15, in the year 2000.

First aircraft to recieve AESA was Boeing 707 with Phalcon AEW&C in 1993.

On IRST and thermal imaging - I am not a huge fan. Most of the cool pictures we see here are at ranges that are FAR too close to compare to air combat - as distances increase to what would be considered normal, the IR signals fall off with the square of the distance.

Well, its not necessary for IRST to provide image. It should search and track. For example OLS-27 which is installed on Su-27/30 and Mig-29 does not give any picture at all.

Add in dust, flares, clouds, additional range, and IRST begins to fail.

And radar fails in jamming , old radars could not see targets near the earth.

IRST / Thermal is not a solution or panacea for radar stealth.

Its not panacea, but it can be helpful in some cases.