Russian-Chinese Su-33 fighter deal collapses - paper

[Gabbar]

Russian-Chinese Su-33 fighter deal collapses - paper

MOSCOW, March 10 (RIA Novosti) - Russia has refused to sell its Su-33 carrier-based fighters to China over fears that Beijing could produce cheaper export versions of the aircraft, a Russian daily said on Tuesday.

The Moskovsky Komsomolets newspaper said that China and Russia had been in negotiations on the sale of 50 of the Su-33 Flanker-D fighters, to be used on future Chinese aircraft carriers, since 2006, but that the talks collapsed recently over China's request for an initial delivery of two aircraft for a "trial."

Russian Defense Ministry sources confirmed that the refusal was due to findings that China had produced its own copycat version of the Su-27SK fighter jet in violation of intellectual property agreements.

In 1995, China secured a $2.5-billion production license from Russia to build 200 Su-27SKs, dubbed J-11A, at the Shenyang Aircraft Corp.

The deal required the aircraft to be outfitted with Russian avionics, radars and engines. Russia cancelled the arrangement in 2006 after it discovered that China was developing an indigenous version, J-11B, with Chinese avionics and systems. The decision came after China had already produced 95 aircraft.

This time, Russia refused the Chinese offer even after Beijing had offered to buy 14 Su-33 aircraft, saying that at least 24 jets should be sold to recoup production costs.

However, the Moskovsky Komsomolets said that the Su-33 deal may be reviewed later because China desperately needs carrier-based aircraft to equip its first indigenous 48,000-ton aircraft carrier, due to be built by 2011. Beijing has also announced plans to build a nuclear-powered aircraft-carrier by 2020.

Chinese media recently quoted China fleet commander Adm. Xu Hongmeng as saying: "China will very soon have its own aircraft carrier."

The Su-33 is a carrier-based multi-role fighter, which can perform a variety of air superiority, fleet defense, air support and reconnaissance missions. The aircraft entered service with the Russian Navy in 1995 and are currently deployed on board the Nikolai Kuznetsov aircraft carrier.

Russian Su-33 naval fighters are significantly cheaper than any similar foreign models, such as the French Rafale-M, or the U.S F-35C or the F/A-22N Sea Raptor.

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20090310/120493194.html

 

[Bull]

And they still continue to armtwist the Indians who have adhered to the rules.

 

[Patriot]

They will sell it to China after few years.It's normal for Russia to ***** but Chinese don't care (Russians have sold literally everything to China)

 

[gpit]

The days for Russians to sell craps freely to China are seemingly gone. Russia has only limited number of advanced technologies that China would like to buy, such as big transport planes, AC related tech. etc. And the days are also numbered even for most of these items.

But those days are far from over for India. Indians need to learn how to be an apt “copycat”, instead of mocking it.

 

[nitesh]

The days for Russians to sell craps freely to China are seemingly gone. Russia has only limited number of advanced technologies that China would like to buy, such as big transport planes, AC related tech. etc. And the days are also numbered even for most of these items.

But those days are far from over for India. Indians need to learn how to be an apt “copycat”, instead of mocking it.

Wishful thinking of highest degree

 

[Contrarian]

For how long? That is the question. Owing to all this renegotiation, India has started signing watertight contracts with strict penalty and delay provisions.

You will also note Bull, that Russia still provides us help in matters where no one else does.

 

[Contrarian]

Wishful thinking of highest degree

He is right to the extent that India and Indians need to stop mocking the copying of equipment done by China. Its national interest.

GPit is however wrong in saying that China now only requires very few and critical technologies from Russia. That is completely wrong. It would help you to know GPit, that a majority of the equipment you think is Chinese reverse engineerd, Russians were engaged to help develop even those copied systems. CHina is still a long way off.

 

[metalfalcon]

Pushing China for Self Reliance and Opening opportunities for Chinese to start Indigenous R&D.

I think its a blessing in Disguise for China, Its an Opportunity for China to come up with something really Kool and then Russians will be claiming its a Copy of their Tech.

 

[gpit]

He is right to the extent that India and Indians need to stop mocking the copying of equipment done by China. Its national interest.

GPit is however wrong in saying that China now only requires very few and critical technologies from Russia. That is completely wrong. It would help you to know GPit, that a majority of the equipment you think is Chinese reverse engineerd, Russians were engaged to help develop even those copied systems. CHina is still a long way off.

Yes. India desperately needs to be, or at least learn to be, an apt copycat. No joking.

No, China-Russia cooperation will not stop as long as the environment and terms fit.

But the days are perhaps already gone for China to get Russia stuff in desperation, especially now Taiwan Strait shows a great deal of relief to all; And it allows China shift a bit of its attention to its west and south-west.

IMHO, Deng Xiaoping should be responsible for the China’s desperation. In the early opening time, he only stressed on economy development and stopped the military development. For decades, China’s military spending is nearly stagnant. This was how the Taiwan separatists saw the opportunity, and South China Sea gets most of the troubles.

To suppress China’s opponents’ wild imagination, China needs to catch up by hiking its military spending better in 20-30% a year for another decade with peaceful intention, as long as it does not harm to its economic development. Meanwhile it should spend less on foreign equipment acquisition and uproot all its military corruptions.

 

[Contrarian]

We all say that for our country gpit. Hike defence budget for a decade or so.

And Deng Xiapong is the reason you have a good economy now, make no mistake about that. And while China might not need Russia's equipment in desperation, a sizeable amount of weaponry it displays as its own has substantial contracted Russian help in it.

So the R&D or intellect applied by Chinese in Chinese produced weaponry is still below par. However it is obvious things would improve in the future. And here's hoping so.

 

[aimarraul]

unlike india,China is just a developing country,we cann't afford to be blackmailed for some 70th craps.2.9B$ for a 2hand AC.wow!too much for us!we can only afford the 20.5B$ "big plane plan" which was approved recently.14 Su-33 for training, big lost !

 

[Neo]

Lets not turn this into another India vs China thread.

Lets see how this affects Chinese naval abmitions. Considering the fact that Russia is China's only supplier of modern technology, this could be a temporary set back.

Otoh, the technological gap between China and the west is closing and its merely a generation apart. China could easily double or tripple its efforts and R & D budget to take J-11B to next level...a true naval MRCA.

 

[Fennecus]

We shall see.

The Russians have become increasingly unreliable as an arms provider lately. (Raising costs for both India and China due to the economic crisis)

The Russians feel betrayed due to the fact that the J-11B project has been so successful, where they see billions of dollars in profit going down the drain. This could be an attempt to blackmail China into paying higher prices.

 

[Luftwaffe]

su-27 and su-33 are relatively same in size for carrier born missions...china is capable of working and converting SU-27 for SU-33 missions aka J-11 variants might be ready to be working upon for naval operations or dedicated navalized version thanks to chinese engineers J-11 is made far too good than the original one. So no worries Chinese have backup plan.

 

[ejaz007]

China to Buy Su-33 Carrier-Based Fighters from Russia?
11-Mar-2009 13:46 EDT


Near the end of October 2006, Russia’s Kommersant newspaper revealed that Russian state-run weapon exporter Rosoboronexport is completing negotiations with China to deliver up to 48 Sukhoi SU-33 (NATO codename: Flanker-D) carrier-capable fighter aircraft in a purchase deal reportedly worth $2.5 billion. The SU-33 is a variant of Sukhoi’s SU-27 Flanker with forward canards, foldings wings, an arrester hook, a reinforced structure, and other modifications that help it deal with carrier operations and landings.

At present, reports regarding the sale and China’s aircraft carrier intentions both remain somewhat murky. china’s intent to field aircraft carriers is becoming clearer and clearer, but the availability of aircraft could be a problem – Russia has reportedly refused to sell the SU-33s, citing past pirating of Russian designs…

The PLA Navy has made contradictory statements regarding its wish to have an operational aircraft carrier, but most expert observers believe they are working on a program to do so. Assurances that the Varyag is destined to be a floating hotel do appear somewhat at variance with the PLAN paint job – the question is whether the Chinese believe they can bring it up to operational status, or are simply using the ship as a learning platform in preparation for their own construction efforts later.

In October 2006, SinoDefence.com reported that China will spend $100 million to buy 2 Su-33 fighters from Komsomolsk-on-Amur Production Association for ‘trial and evaluations,’ with delivery expected in 2007-08. Reports claim there is also an agreed option for another 12 Su-33 fighters, with the potential for the deal to grow to 48 SU-33s and $2.5 billion. They add that China’s Dalian Shipyard is currently refitting the ex-Soviet Navy aircraft carrier Varyag, acquired in extremely poor condition from the Ukraine in 1999.

Reports and Key Events

March 10/09:
The Moskovsky Komsomolets newspaper reports that Russia is refusing to sell China SU-33 jets, citing past piracy of the design for its SU-27 fighters. China initially sought 2 SU-33s for its “trial basis” order, which are a modified variant of the SU-27. Subsequent negotiations reportedly raised the “trial” order to 14 of the 50 aircraft China said it wanted, but that was not enough to remove the basic problem.

In 1995, China received a license for the production of 200 Su-27SK fighters; that agreement was later terminated at 95 planes. China cushioned the blow by ordering a total of 110 SU-30MK2s between 1999-2003, but they are now producing a “J-11B” fighter that appears to be an SU-27 with Chinese radar and avionics, and Chinese WS-10 engines in place of Russian Lyulka AL-31s. The issue was reportedly raised at the 13th meeting of the Russian-Chinese Committee for Military Cooperation in December 2008, without resolution.

If Russia believes that its SU-33s are being ordered so they can be cloned by the Chinese, creating a future with no further orders from China, and a cheaper version of their weapons offered for global export, then their lack of interest in a deal is understandable.

Note that concerns are also being raised in Russia around ongoing production of Russian-derived Cold War era designs by Eastern European countries, which could create future diplomatic incidents. Pravda report.

Dec 31/08: Japan’s Asahi Shimbun:

“China will begin construction of the country’s first domestically produced aircraft carriers in Shanghai next year, with an eye to completing two mid-sized carriers by 2015, military and shipbuilding sources said. Beijing is also expected to complete work on a never-finished former Soviet aircraft carrier moored in the northeastern port of Dalian, to provide training for carrier-based pilots and crew. The two 50,000- to 60,000-ton carriers will rely on conventional propulsion systems, not nuclear power…..

According to sources close to Shanghai municipal authorities, one of the world’s largest shipbuilding facilities was completed this fall on Changxingdao island at the mouth of the Changjiang river near Shanghai. One of the four docks there is for construction of the aircraft carriers, they said.”

Dec 23/08:
China’s defence ministry spokesman Huang Xueping discusses that country’s carrier plans during a rare press conference, called to announce the dispatch of Chinese warships to the Somali coast on anti-piracy patrols. When asked about rumors of a Chinese aircraft carrier, he said that:

“An aircraft carrier is a symbol of overall national strength and a symbol of the competitiveness of the nation’s naval force… The Chinese government will take into overall account the relevant factors and seriously consider the relevant issue.”

Oct 24/08: Jane’s report:

“Russian sources have now told Jane’s that under the current proposal the Russian in-service Su-33 would be put back into production and the PLAN would acquire 14 of this type to be used for the training phase of the programme….

“The next step will be to modernise the Su-33, which was first designed in the late 1980s, with a new set of state-of-the-art onboard systems,” a KnAAPO representative told Jane’s on the eve of the biennial Air Show China in late October. “What this new aeroplane is most likely to be is a combination Su-33 airframe with a radar, avionics and cockpit instrumentation that is a ‘developed’ configuration based on the Su-30MK2, and this will be the PLAN’s operational version.”

Sept 19/08:
Indian Express cites a small article in a recent issue of the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) Daily, which announced that the first batch of 50 pilots cadets have been inducted at the Dalian Naval Academy to undergo training on ‘ship borne aircraft flight.’ The first batch of pilots undergoing training on ‘basic theories of surface ship and flight’ will reportedly graduate from the academy in 4 years.

Nov 1/06:
Russian news agency RIA Novosti describes the negotiations as “at a preliminary stage.” That same article also noted that Alexander Denisov, who headed Russia’s delegation at Airshow China 2006, said that Russia is ready to help China design an aircraft carrier if asked.

China to Buy Su-33 Carrier-Based Fighters from Russia?