Russia will not agree to any curbs on transfer of sensitive technologies to India!

[LCA Tejas]

very well, Developereo obviously, India and Pakistan has issues to resolve and cant see eye to eye on this, And if i try to argue with you on this it will stretch out till end of eternity. like Kashmir Issue.

You expressed your own honest opinions on the issue but?

You didn't answer my real question.



I just wanted to share my opinion in the previous post.
But this question is as much to you as just for me trying to find out something about Pakistan's future plans that dont involve the India.

You say all Indians Dream too much when they envision India to be a super power in 40 years.


in my opinion Indians and Pakistani's are all the same. we have had hundreds of years of common history, And separation on the grounds of religious Intolerance. Only in the last 60 years. we must still share some commonalities. you can achive what China does or India does.

I just want to know what is the Pakistani dream. ?

Progress is for those who dream

 

[Developereo]

You say all Indians Dream too much when they envision India to be a super power in 40 years.

I don't remember saying that.

I just want to know what is the Pakistani dream. ?

Stable democracy. A unique blend of Islamic culture and humanism blended with Western (or better) levels of education, law and order, technology, human rights, etc...

Same as everybody else.
I don't deny that India has a head start, largely due to its stable democracy, and we should follow India and China's lead.

Eventually, India and Pakistan can form a close alliance, but only after Kashmir issue is resolved.

 

[LCA Tejas]

I don't remember saying that.



Stable democracy. A unique blend of Islamic culture and humanism blended with Western (or better) levels of education, law and order, technology, human rights, etc...

Same as everybody else.
I don't deny that India has a head start, largely due to its stable democracy, and we should follow India and China's lead.

Eventually, India and Pakistan can form a close alliance, but only after Kashmir issue is resolved.

Thats true.... very true

 

[gogbot]

I don't remember saying that.



Stable democracy. A unique blend of Islamic culture and humanism blended with Western (or better) levels of education, law and order, technology, human rights, etc...

Same as everybody else.
I don't deny that India has a head start, largely due to its stable democracy, and we should follow India and China's lead.

Eventually, India and Pakistan can form a close alliance, but only after Kashmir issue is resolved.

We all Share the same dream, Hopes and ambitions , but yet we kill each other. And cant even agree on the simplest things.

It would seem that a Positive and a negative will always form a negative. That is the case wit India and Pakistan. In terms of their relations.

But in the case of China an Pakistan, Two negative yield a positive. their only commonality being their dis-trust for India,

Fate it seems is not without, its Irony. (Morpheus)
(the matrix was a good movie )

 

[SinoIndusFriendship]

We all Share the same dream, Hopes and ambitions , but yet we kill each other. And cant even agree on the simplest things.

It would seem that a Positive and a negative will always form a negative. That is the case wit India and Pakistan. In terms of their relations.

But in the case of China an Pakistan, Two negative yield a positive. their only commonality being their dis-trust for India,

Fate it seems is not without, its Irony. (Morpheus)
(the matrix was a good movie )

Why do Indians belittle Sino-Pak friendship and demonize Chinese people?!

That kind of attitude is harmful, it eats away at one's moral core.

 

[gogbot]

Why do Indians belittle Sino-Pak friendship and demonize Chinese people?!

That kind of attitude is harmful, it eats away at one's moral core.

I am not here to belittle . I only intend to provide my morale and objective views on the situation.

But is it not true that what bough PAk and China together were their distrust of India , And their negative intentions for India.

And that's what i meant when i said that two negative's yielded a positive.

and where have i Demonised the chinese people. If you feel i have then point it out for me and give me a chance to explain my self.

You your self has just demonized the Indian people, with that statement.

 

[Developereo]

But in the case of China an Pakistan, Two negative yield a positive. their only commonality being their dis-trust for India,

This seems to be a common misconception amongst Indians. Pakistan and China do share a common mistrust of India and the West, but our friendship goes way beyond that. China provides valuable diplomatic, technical and financial support to Pakistan. Pakistan provides China with a bridge, literally and figuratively, into the Middle East and the Islamic world. These mutual benefits are more than enough to sustain our friendship, regardless of India.

(the matrix was a good movie )

True, although I didn't like the sequels.

 

[ratolz]

Stick to the topic guys, don't derail it like evry previous thread...... If there is no other thing to say regarding the transfer of technology, better we close the thread.

 

[ouiouiouiouiouioui]

good news for media......these are categorical statements given time to time....who knows what is going behind.....

 

[Screaming Skull]

Hi,

As promised, here is a very brief insight into India’s civil nuclear capabilities-

Introduction & chronology

The Indian nuclear program started even before India became an independent nation. Dr. Homi Jehangir Bhabha submitted a proposal in March 1944 to the Sir Dorab Tata Trust for the establishment of a nuclear research institute. This led to the creation of the Tata Institute of Fundamental Research (TIFR) in April 1945. Soon TIFR started its initial work in Bangalore in June 1945 with Bhabha serving as the first director. In December 1945, Bhabha moved TIFR to Bombay where it continues to serve as a research institution today. A year after we attained independence, the Indian Atomic Energy Act was passed. This led to the establishment of the Indian Atomic Energy Commission (AEC). The AEC would pursue in-depth studies of nuclear energy and was comprised of three members: Dr. Bhabha, Dr. K.S. Krishnan, and Dr. S.S. Bhatnagar.

In August 1950, Indian Rare Earths Limited (IRE) was established to recover minerals and process rare earths compounds and thorium-uranium concentrates. Later in April 1951, uranium deposits were discovered at Jaduguda and drilling operations commenced in December 1951. The Jaduguda mine was the main source of uranium for the entire Indian nuclear program until the present day.
On January 3, 1954, the Atomic Energy Establishment at Trombay (AEET) was created by the AEC. AEET led research on nuclear weapons technology and has been referred to as the “Indian Los Alamos”. The AEET was formally inaugurated on January 20, 1957 and was followed by the creation of the Department of Atomic Energy (DAE) on August 3, 1954 with Dr. Bhabha as Secretary. The DAE was not under the regular control of the cabinet but reported directly to the Prime Minister. On January 12, 1967 in tribute to Dr. Bhabha, who died in an airplane crash on January 24, 1966 (CIA is suspected to have assassinated him to impede Indian nuclear weapons program), the AEET was renamed as the Bhabha Atomic Research Center (BARC). During his tenure, Dr. Bhabha also transferred all the scientific initiatives from TIFR to AEET.

3-stage nuclear energy plan

Long before his sad demise, Bhabha in 1954 presented the three-stage nuclear energy plan for national development. Under this plan, India would start its nuclear power in the first-stage with natural uranium fueled, heavy-water moderated Pressurized Heavy Water Reactors (PHWRs) reactors to produce power and plutonium. The first-stage reactors would be based on the CANDU technology and would be built with Canadian assistance. These reactors would produce 420 GWe-yrs of electricity. In the second-stage, plutonium would be separated from the spent fuel from the first-stage reactors and used to power fast breeder reactors (FBRs). The FBRs would then generate an additional 54,000 GWe-yrs of electricity. Thorium would be irradiated in the blanket of the FBRs to breed U-233. In the third-stage, the U-233 bred from the second-stage would serve as fuel for the U-233 breeder reactors (Advanced Heavy Water Reactors). These U-233 breeder reactors (AHWRs) would provide 358,000 GWe-yrs of electricity and breed more fissile materials. Breeder reactors are an advanced reactor design in which the reactor breeds additional fuel during operation. Technically, a breeder reactor produces more fuel during operation than it consumes. The breeder reactor achieves this through a design which highly conserves neutrons in the system. These reactors would produce enough excess material to fuel themselves and produce excess for weapons use. The Indian government formally adopted this three-stage plan in 1958 recognizing the importance of nuclear power as a sustainable energy source.

Here is an illustration of the 3-stage nuclear program of India-

The basis of the three-stage-program was indigenously available technology for production of natural uranium, vast reserves of thorium, and the mastering of heavy water production and spent fuel reprocessing technology. When this program was devised, India did not have any existing power reactors and there were no commercial fast breeder reactor systems anywhere in the world.

Globally unparalleled indigenous capabilities

India is the only country in the world that has accorded a high priority to the use of all the three main fissionable materials- U-235, Pu & U-233, to meet the challenge of reaching energy independence through a well calibrated use of domestic uranium and thorium resources.

The magnitude of R&D in any field is best represented by the number of scientific publications in that area. Hence, I am providing a few statistics to compare India’s capabilities with other much advanced global players.

Publications on PHWR-

As can be seen from the figure above, India has progressively reached world leadership in the field of PHWRs. Nearly 55% of the scientific publications in the field of PHWRs originated from India in the year 2006.

Publications on FBRs-

As seen from the above figure, in the area of FBRs, the Indira Gandhi Centre for Atomic Research (IGCAR) brought out the largest number of publications by any single institution in the years 2005&06.

Publications on Thorium-

Even in the area of Thorium research, on the basis of International Nuclear Information System (INIS) database, India stands at the top!

Performance in other cutting edge areas

-Radio isotopes

The DAE has made large contributions in the field of application of radio-isotopes in industries, health care, hydrology, food preservation and agriculture. For example, in the field of nuclear agriculture, the mutant ground nut seeds developed at BARC contribute to nearly 25% of total ground nut cultivation in the country. Similarly, in the area of black gram production, the BARC developed mutant seeds contribute to 22% of national cultivation. In the state of Maharashtra this percentage is as high as 95%.

-Cancer research

The Tata Memorial Centre, an aided institution under DAE, was recognized as the outstanding cancer organization for its excellence in cancer control from within and beyond India’s border, by the International Union for Cancer Control, Washington DC in 2006.

-Astronomical research

The Giant Meterwave Radio Telescope (GMRT) built by DAE for TIFR, has become an international tool for astronomical research. In Aug-2004, using this facility, the TIFR scientists and their collaborators discovered a new pulsar.

-CERN

India has an observer status at CERN along with US, Japan, Russia, Turkey and Israel. We are also partners in contributing to the construction and testing of several important systems of this very large international experimental facility now nearing completion.

-ITER

India is one of the seven members of the International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor (ITER) project. Other members include- the EU, US, Russia, Japan, China & South Korea.

Well that was a very brief description of India’s nuclear capabilities. Hopefully, I have managed to put across my point regarding India’s expertise in this field. Finally, I will end my post by quoting Dr. Siegfried S. Hecker, former director of Los Alamos National Lab, USA.

In his testimony at the US senate committee on appropriations, Subcommittee on enrgy and water development on April 20, 2008, Dr. Hecker said-

"I found that whereas sanctions slowed progress in nuclear energy, they made India self-sufficient and world leaders in fast reactor technology. While much of the world’s approach to India has been to limit its access to nuclear technology, it may well be that today we limit ourselves by not having access to India’s nuclear technology developments. Such technical views should help to advice the diplomatic efforts with India."

-Dr. Siegfried S. Hecker
Former director,
Los Alamos National Lab, USA.

-Skull

 

[destiny]

We are paying 1.2 billion dollars to the US for their reactors, the 2000+ MWe electricity that those reactors will generate and lifetime supply of nuclear fuel for those imported reactors! If we were to build reactors of such capacity, from where would we get fuel to operate them? Now get it?



Did I ever say that we have expertise in building PWRs? Do you know the difference between PHWRs & PWRs? Go figure! Once again for the record- India only builds PHWRs, FBRs & AHWRs. Btw, now that we have built a PWR (with Russian assistance if you like), it proves that we have capabilities to build PWRs too. One more trivia for you- we are gonna export our PHWRs to Kazakhstan and hopefully to many Asian & African countries.

mainly we do not build PWRs because they require higher enrichment of uranium in the fuel. Unlike USA we have a closed cycle of fuel usage ....

 

[destiny]

by now , i guess u know there r many different types of reactors... India is way ahead in FBRs -Fast breader reactor, whose prototype is almost ready 220MW in next 1-2 yrs... Indian reactors are smaller in size , last time I heard ,Indian reactors are at max 450 -500 MW only...
and if u observe, we r importing reactors much bigger and with more advanced structures in the range of 1000 MW -1600 MW, its like comparing Japanese cars to F1 racing cars.... both r ideally cars with great differences.. now clubbing India and pakistan in terms of reactor tech wud be just ignorance...

Indian FBR is going to be 540 MWe not 220 MW and yes we do not have capability to build reactors more than 550 MWe .

 

[Developereo]

Hi,

As promised, here is a very brief insight into India’s civil nuclear capabilities-

Kazhakstan has the largest reserves of uranium in the world and, per you, India has the thorium.

That's probably why you are paying billions of dollars to the Russians, French, and the Americans. So you can teach them about nuclear technology.

I am not belittling India's accomplishments, but every country can learn from others. I don't know why Indians are so insecure about admitting that fact.

 

[Screaming Skull]

Kazhakstan has the largest reserves of uranium in the world

That is why we intend to extract uranium from their mines and mines of other uranium rich countries!

DAWN.COM | World | India scouring world for uranium

and, per you, India has the thorium.

Why don’t you look up some open source literature and find out how many countries use Thorium in their fuel cycle? Find out how many countries operate reactors based on Th or how many are even close to building something that can run on Th. When you have perused reliable sources, you will realize that India is the only country in the world to have gotten anywhere close to designing a reactor that can use Th. Even with all the expertise we have, it won’t be before 2030-2035 that we can get a working commercial reactor ready. Also, if you check out the illustration I provided in my previous post, you will realize that we have a closed cycle program. So, what we do in our third stage depends on what goes into the first stage. In essence, even to utilize our vast resources of Th, we need enough uranium from which we can extract Pu.

That's probably why you are paying billions of dollars to the Russians, French, and the Americans.

I already told you why we are paying them billions!

So you can teach them about nuclear technology.

Hey I am not the one who said that they wanna learn from us. It was an ex-director of a US national lab!

I am not belittling India's accomplishments,

Glad to hear that!

but every country can learn from others.

Who said we don’t wanna learn from others?

I don't know why Indians are so insecure about admitting that fact.

Insecure? Hmm let me see…was I the one who brought Pakistan in this thread? Or was I the one who said “We, like India, do not yet know how to make civilian reactors.”

btw, I have a problem with letting blanket statements based on somebody’s deluded logic pass off as ‘fact’.

Now if you are done with proving your fact(oids) to me can we get back to discussing the topic at hand? My previous post was not directed at you alone. It was also meant for all those members who asked me to post some info on India’s nuclear program.

 

[Developereo]

I already told you why we are paying them billions!

Instead of getting all its uranium cheaply from Kazakhstan's huge reserves, India will instead pay billions of dollars to become dependent upon France, Russia and the US to supply uranium.

Do you expect anyone to believe that nonsense? The articles themselves mention transfer of technology for advanced reactors.

Hey I am not the one who said that they wanna learn from us. It was an ex-director of a US national lab!

He made a general statement. I am sure France and Russia jumped at the chance to learn from you while getting paid billions of dollars.

With teachers like these, who needs customers?

Who said we don’t wanna learn from others? Insecure?

Your knee-jerk rant at the very suggestion that India was going to learn from France, Russia and the US shows your insecurity.

Or was I the one who said “We, like India, do not yet know how to make civilian reactors.”

Clearly India doesn't know how to make certain types of reactors. Hence the billion dollar deals to acquire that technology from said countries.

btw, I have a problem with letting blanket statements based on somebody’s deluded logic pass off as ‘fact’.

No, you have a lifetime of indoctrination at the hands of "Incredible India" media, which makes you overly sensitive at any suggestion that India might not be perfect.