Russia’s T-90 tank - winner or loser?

[AUSTERLITZ]

Those models seem to lack Frontal ARC ERA,once added iam guessing they would take the sahep of chiorny oriol MBTs sloped angular front,but much smaller due to unmanned.
Also If either kaktus or relikt aren't used then russians will surely use new type of NERA.
Another thing to know about is the autoloader,i am guessing a bustle type autoloader replacing carousel type.
No doubt it will also have the latest APS and APFSDS rounds for the new gun.
Some unconfirmed pics of a different model say it will have a coaxial 20 mm cannon,and a 30 mm anti helicopter autocannon,maybe pantsir/tunguska ADS with their radars accompanying such armour coloumns will coordinate their data with armata to use the autocannon.
In any case its a revolutionary design.

 

[Anas Ali]

to me its not about winner or loser its about obtaining the appropriate armory for the right tactics for an expected battle so to me Abrams or T-90 it just depends on your futuristic need its not about obtaining the latest or the most advance , i have to say i like the t-90 and i wish to see it works along side our Abrams

 

[Penguin]

I wonder why Russia has no car industry?!!!! this is something I can't understand!!!!>

Automotive production is a significant industry in Russia, directly employing around 600,000 people or 1% of the country's total work force. Russia was the world's 15th largest car producer in 2010, and accounts for about 7% of the worldwide production.

In 2008, there were 5,445 companies manufacturing vehicles and related equipment in Russia.

Automotive industry in Russia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Business
Russia's auto industry goes into high gear
May 14, 2013 Andrei Shkolin, special to RBTH
A second wave of automobile production localization hits Europe’s soon-to-be largest car market as Russian manufacturers are forced to compete with incoming foreign giants. To the surprise of many, small and compact cars are king.

Private car ownership, shunned in Soviet times as an alternative to public transportation, has witnessed an unprecedented boom since the turn of the century with 12 percent growth in 2012 to hit 2.93 million cars sold (marking a full recovery from the 2008 global economic crisis, according to the Association of European Businesses).
This stands in stark contrast to the entire E.U., where sales dropped by 8.2 percent last year to 12 million (the lowest level in 17 years, says the European Automobile Manufacturers’ Association).

Russia's auto industry goes into high gear | Russia Beyond The Headlines

http://www.ey.com/Publication/vwLUAssets/Russian_and_CIS_automotive_industry/$FILE/Russia%20Automotive_2012.pdf

 

[Penguin]

Reminds me of Jordanian Challenger I returreted by KADDB with Falcon turret.

 

[Penguin]

The trouble with ERA blocks (even the Kaktus 6) it that once expended, a portion of the hull becomes vulnerable. So, given e.g. more rapid fire by manually loaded MBT guns, and perhaps a coordinate 2 or more shooters on 1 target approach, you can still defeat a tank so equipped.

 

[Keshav Murali]

Reminds me of Jordanian Challenger I returreted by KADDB with Falcon turret.

Actually, Falcon is Low-profile turret. Armata has fully unmanned turret. Low profile turret still has crew inside, needs armour. But unmanned turret does not need armour at all.

The trouble with ERA blocks (even the Kaktus 6) it that once expended, a portion of the hull becomes vulnerable. So, given e.g. more rapid fire by manually loaded MBT guns, and perhaps a coordinate 2 or more shooters on 1 target approach, you can still defeat a tank so equipped.

True, but tank guns aren't as accurate as you think you are, possibility of hitting the same place twice is very low. Yes, several tanks firing on the same target at once, means that the ERA equipped tank is toast.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

The trouble with ERA blocks (even the Kaktus 6) it that once expended, a portion of the hull becomes vulnerable. So, given e.g. more rapid fire by manually loaded MBT guns, and perhaps a coordinate 2 or more shooters on 1 target approach, you can still defeat a tank so equipped.

Thats why new tanks from LEOPARD 2A7 to coming ARMATA are to have NERA,NERA is lighter can be placed anywhere,doesn't explode and most important immune to tandem warheads.Only downside is slightly less performance than heavy ERA against KE penetrator.

 

[ptldM3]

Thats why new tanks from LEOPARD 2A7 to coming ARMATA are to have NERA,NERA is lighter can be placed anywhere,doesn't explode and most important immune to tandem warheads.Only downside is slightly less performance than heavy ERA against KE penetrator.

NERA also seems like a more viable option when equipped with the Arena system because Arena causes projectiles such as anti tank rockets to detonate before it is able to impact armor. Something like reactive armor can needlessly explode once arena neutralizes an incoming threat.

 

[Penguin]

Actually, Falcon is Low-profile turret. Armata has fully unmanned turret. Low profile turret still has crew inside, needs armour. But unmanned turret does not need armour at all.

I realize that Armata's turret is unmanned and that all crew are in the hull. With Falcon, there are 2 crew in the basket of the turret, their scopes being level with hull top. The net effect is the same. For a returreting of a conventional tank, that's unavoidable, since by design the hull only has room for the driver. The unmanned turret will also need armor, or an opposing vehicle with an HMP firing AP rounds will be able to 'take it out' (render unfunctional) even if crew survive in their seperate well armored hull compartment....

True, but tank guns aren't as accurate as you think you are, possibility of hitting the same place twice is very low. Yes, several tanks firing on the same target at once, means that the ERA equipped tank is toast.

Tank guns are accurate enough to hit target. Consider Leo 2 fire control:

The standard fire control system found on the Leopard 2 is the German EMES 15 fire control system with a dual magnification stabilized primary sight. The primary sight has an integrated Neodymium Yttrium Aluminium Garnet (Nd:YAG) solid state laser rangefinder and a 120 element cadmium mercury telluride, CdHgTe (also known as CMT) Zeiss thermal sight which are both linked to the tank's fire control computer. A backup 8x auxiliary telescope FERO-Z18 is mounted coaxially for the gunner.[8] The commander has an independent periscope, the Rheinmetall/Zeiss PERI-R 17 A2. The PERI-R 17 A2 is a stabilised panoramic periscope sight designed for day / night observation and target identification, and it provides an all round view with a traverse of 360°.[16] The thermal image from the commander's periscope is displayed on a monitor inside the tank. Initial production tanks were not equipped with a thermal sight, due to the sight being not ready, and instead temporarily substituted the PZB 200 low light TV system (LLLTV).[8]
The fire control suite is capable of providing up to three range values in four seconds. The range data is transmitted to the fire control computer and is used to calculate the firing solution. Also, because the laser rangefinder is integrated into the gunner's primary sight, the gunner is able to read the digital range measurement directly. The maximum range of the laser rangefinder is just less than 10,000 m with a measuring accuracy to within 20 m at this range.[16] The combined system allows the Leopard 2 to engage moving targets at ranges of up to 5,000 meters whilst itself being on the move over rough terrain.

Leopard 2 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Imagine that can be done by todays lated version Leo2, with the latest FCS, when not moving, at a typical range of 2-3 maybe max 4 km....
+
Not necessarily just tanks firing, but also ground and air launched ATGWs (including from tank guns) and smart anti-tank munitions from cargo rounds of various systems (arty, mlrs, cruise missiles etc ...)

 

[Penguin]

Thats why new tanks from LEOPARD 2A7 to coming ARMATA are to have NERA,NERA is lighter can be placed anywhere,doesn't explode and most important immune to tandem warheads.Only downside is slightly less performance than heavy ERA against KE penetrator.

Typically what an MBT would use against another MBT. ATGWs and smart munitions would more likely be CE -notably HEAT warheads - or use EFPs

 

[vostok]

Some thinks Armata will look like this

Nobody know now (exept specialists who build it)

 

[Keshav Murali]

The unmanned turret will also need armor, or an opposing vehicle with an HMP firing AP rounds will be able to 'take it out' (render unfunctional) even if crew survive in their seperate well armored hull compartment....

Tank guns are accurate enough to hit target. Consider Leo 2 fire control:

12.7 mm protection can be done easily for unmanned turret, no problem. Tank guns are accurate enough, to hit the blob that the enemy target is, at a long range. If you aim at the mantlet, you will not hit there, perhaps on the gunner's sight or the lower glacis plate. It is nearly unpredictable, thank god for FCS.

Typically what an MBT would use against another MBT. ATGWs and smart munitions would more likely be CE -notably HEAT warheads - or use EFPs

No no, what he says isn't fully true. German NERA worked as well as 4S23 "Relikt" and nearly as well as "Noz" against KE. That is very good, NERA is lighter, and can take several hits.

 

[silent poison]

 

[Penguin]

12.7 mm protection can be done easily for unmanned turret, no problem. Tank guns are accurate enough, to hit the blob that the enemy target is, at a long range. If you aim at the mantlet, you will not hit there, perhaps on the gunner's sight or the lower glacis plate. It is nearly unpredictable, thank god for FCS.

Actually, the point was that even an unmanned turret will need substantial armor, to ensure that both light (say up to 57mm cannon) and heavy weapons fire (100/105mm and upward) does not result in a functional kill (i.e. crew llives protect in hull, but turret no longer functions > the whole systyem effectively rendered useless)

No no, what he says isn't fully true. German NERA worked as well as 4S23 "Relikt" and nearly as well as "Noz" against KE. That is very good, NERA is lighter, and can take several hits.

No one doubts the effectiveness of NERA, but - as the other poster stated - it is less effective against KE penetrators than heavy ERA and KE penetrators are typically wqhat you as a MBT would use against another MBT.

Rest assured, I don't think T-90 is a poor tank...

 

[Keshav Murali]

No one doubts the effectiveness of NERA, but - as the other poster stated - it is less effective against KE penetrators than heavy ERA and KE penetrators are typically wqhat you as a MBT would use against another MBT.

4S23 Relikt is Russia's latest heavy ERA. 21st century.

German NERA worked as well as it against KE i.e. 40% better than K-5. 20th century tech.

NERA isn't necessary worse than ERA,

but Linear shaped charges trump NERA in performance by a long way.