Russia Competes With China for Arms Sales to Pakistan

[khansaheeb]

Bung alert, we should forget it unless tech manufacturing transfer included -" He added that Pakistan has not made requests such as technology transfer or localization of production as terms for any purchases".

On another note, Russian designed avionics facing the S400, can we trust them?

 

[Riz]

No jets... We need S-400 from Russia

 

[Basel]

So since this story broke out its gained a lot of momentum and shockingly there are some articles going about on the internet to backup the story - to a certain extent.

But here is my take on it.

A couple of days prior, PAF acquires jets from Egypt. US is not surprised that Pakistan took that route to avoid the trouble of going through Capital Hill for used F-16's.

Then all of a sudden this story comes out about: Pakistan - Russia (of all people) - US $9 Billion.

Somewhere in the US, Board Members at Lockheed Martin just went, "What the f**#!!!". They're scratching their heads and wondering why they're not getting a piece of the pie.

I sense this is merely a tactic the PAF have played to see if the US will blink in a staring contest. Question is: Who's playing who, here?

Donald Trump on the other hand is thinking...[feel free to watch the whole Video]

Now...

How can you be certain. You're obviously comparing its earlier variant - the MiG-29 which was designed during the Soviet-era in the late 70's. The MiG-35 had its 1st Test Flight in 2007. You do know that both MiG (Mikoyan) & Sukhoi, both belong to UAC (United Aircraft Corporation), so as far quality is concerned - they are at par with one another.

Exactly...

The last point is actually the first point.

Precisely...

Though, I agree with you... How exactly did you come to the conclusion that it faces built quality issues? How many Airforce's are currently operating the MiG-35?

Since when? Have you seen their GDP as of late...? This is a nation that was the first to place an order for the Rafales with 24. They are not broke! They have suffered some setbacks, politically. But even by being the most populated country in the Middle East, their Economy is steady & certainly one should not compare their situation with the likes of Pakistan (sorry guys).

Hmmm..., yeah okay - one could argue that its a 'beast', and its certainly (far) less than a Su-57. That is another conversation. But it is a very capable jet. And though I know that we'll never see it in the PAF, but i'd be itching to know/see what our boys would be capable of behind the controls of those jets.

Agreed 100% - And for the guys who have the Su-35 & S-400... Why not the S-500? Khuab pora...

We are. That's probably the reason why Leonardo has opened an office in Islamabad. Just imagine what we can get out of them... C-27J (Spartan), M345/6...things for the Navy.

Finally..., you may all find this part interesting:

The Countering America's Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (Caatsa) was introduced in 2017 to target Russia, Iran and North Korea with economic and political sanctions. It also prohibits any country from signing defence deals with these nations.

India got a 'Get out of Jail' card because Trump on the purchase of the S-400. Hasn't worked out well with Turkey.
Reason: Well, you're all smart.

Countries preferred Sukhois over Migs due to built quality issues, even sold new M were returned and Sukhois we're ordered due to bad built quality of Migs, even India is facing issues with new Migs.

 

[PurpleButcher]

Countries preferred Sukhois over Migs due to built quality issues, even sold new M were returned and Sukhois we're ordered due to bad built quality of Migs, even India is facing issues with new Migs.

Interesting information. Can you kindly shed some more details, would love to read!

 

[Sulemanms202]

Migs are not winner they need complete infrastructure to be a true workhorse and backbone

 

[gangsta_rap]

Interesting information. Can you kindly shed some more details, would love to read!

Read about the Algerian mig procument its the exact case study he is referring to.

Algerians had a pretty big fleet of fulcrums but ongoing quality quirks forced them to trade those for a smaller qty of su30mk jets

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/algeria-returns-39faulty39-mig-29s-221771/

 

[hamilcar of carthage]

No its was barbarians at the gate. It was when Rome was sacked by King Alaric.

the first one was hannibal at the gates alaric the visigoth came way later. romans coined hannibal at the gates i know of it i m sure

time to send scipio to africa then?

he only won because hannibal was old scipio as a general never came face to face with hannibal in his prime he would have crushed him like cannae

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

Mi26T2/Mi17 replacement that is being designed with local manufacturing/JV and Ka-52 or Mi28NE at least. Throw in some medium lift troop-cargo transport as well if possible.


And some air defence. Get everything in increments. Fighter jets meh...if it comes to it then okay....but I dont really see em happening but PAF might surprise us just like the Mirage Vs from Egypt.

Funds permitting and keeping priorities in view whatever we get from above will only benefit us.

 

[Basel]

Interesting information. Can you kindly shed some more details, would love to read!

Please use Google and search PDF you will find your answers.

Read about the Algerian mig procument its the exact case study he is referring to.

Algerians had a pretty big fleet of fulcrums but ongoing quality quirks forced them to trade those for a smaller qty of su30mk jets

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/algeria-returns-39faulty39-mig-29s-221771/

They even returned Mig-29SMTs.

https://www.upi.com/Defense-News/20...MiG-29s-that-Algeria-rejected/73581232035135/

 

[Enigma SIG]

9 pages of a thread that is discussing a purchase of $9 billion.

We just averted an economic default. Maybe procurement threads should have an option of entering

a. Do we have money in the bank?
b. Do we have money in the bank?

 

[jupiter2007]

9 pages of a thread that is discussing a purchase of $9 billion.

We just averted an economic default. Maybe procurement threads should have an option of entering

a. Do we have money in the bank?
b. Do we have money in the bank?

Averted economic default but still not out of danger. Like I said before, Asad Umar has taken economy out of coma but it’s still in ICU. After IMF program is signed, it can go through stabilization process. To comes completely out of this mess, we need to make some drastic changes in FBR process of tax collections and increase exports and limit imports. We need to find new ways to attract investment in various sectors but unless and until we make some tough decisions nothing will change.

 

[Enigma SIG]

Averted economic default but still not out of danger. Like I said before, Asad Umar has taken economy out of coma but it’s still in ICU. After IMF program is signed, it can go through stabilization process. To comes completely out of this mess, we need to make some drastic changes in FBR process of tax collections and increase exports and limit imports. We need to find new ways to attract investment in various sectors but unless and until we make some tough decisions nothing will change.

Stop printing paper money; get every citizen a small smartphone capable of digital payments. All sales / purchases recorded through a data center and FBR increases tax collection by multiples of magnitudes.

 

[Haroon Baloch]

PAF would never opt for Russian Aircraft. Even in the 70s when US sanctioned Pakistan, Russia offers all the latest equipment to Pakistan but Pakistan opted for Chinese F-7 instead of Russian Equipment. This is just a bait for India so they would buy more equipment from Russia.


Edit: Its was in the mid 1990s and Pakistan opt for Mirages instead of Su-27 or Mig 29.

 

[CodeforFood]

the first one was hannibal at the gates alaric the visigoth came way later. romans coined hannibal at the gates i know of it i m sure


he only won because hannibal was old scipio as a general never came face to face with hannibal in his prime he would have crushed him like cannae

I m not saying that Scipio was better r not.. just facts. Scipio actually used Hannibal tactics on Hannibal rather inexperienced army when they fought

 

[SABRE]

PAF would never opt for Russian Aircraft. Even in the 70s when US sanctioned Pakistan, Russia offers all the latest equipment to Pakistan but Pakistan opted for Chinese F-7 instead of Russian Equipment. This is just a bait for India so they would buy more equipment from Russia.

I don't remember any US sanctions on Pakistan in the 1970s. If anything, Nixon was very anti-Indra Gandhi and sought Pakistan's help in improving US relations with China in the 70s. The deterioration point can be traced back to the Carter Admin (1977-1981). Carter reversed Nixon's policy towards India & set out to improve bilateral relations. But he too did not impose any sanctions on Pakistan. Simington Amendment & Pressler Amendment that made it difficult for Pakistan to acquire conventional weapons from the US in the 1980s and 1990s was a legislative restriction on US President not sanctions on Pakistan.

In 1970s Bhutto sought to improve relations with the USSR, which was going pretty well. Soviets established the Steel Mill in Karachi & decided not to veto a resolution on Kashmir in the UN (need confirmation). Had Bhutto not been disposed of relations with Russia today might have been radically different. The level relations we are aiming for in the future actually could have been achieved somewhere in the past.

I don't know if the Soviets offered any major weapon system in the 1970s. In the 1980s we were in direct conflict with them in Afghanistan. From 1965 to up until 1981 PAF had sought the French Mirages instead of US fighters. Mirage induction was going relatively smooth and it set well with the PAF. We bought F-7s in the late 1980s & early to mid-1990s (correct me if I am wrong), so the choice of it had less to do with our relations with the Soviets, or the quality of their product, & more to do with the US' cancellation of F-16 sales & Pakistan seeking to plug in gaps.