Russia, China jointly develop high-tech weapons — Putin

[FairAndUnbiased]

Sure, the doctrines may different, but China has adopted a lot of Russian equipment to its war fighting strategy in the past. Perhaps nowadays, wholesale acquisition of Russian platforms may no longer be relevant, but certain sub-systems could still be areas where Russia still exceeds the performance of current Chinese systems.

Perhaps the Tu-160 was just too complicated and expensive for the Soviets to procure. A potential Chinese variant could be constructed more efficiently, and just like the B-1B, could still fit the role of low level anti ship missile truck. Is the H-20 suppose to be a subsonic design or a supersonic capable design?

H-20 is likely to be subsonic only.

China imported Russian equipment in the 1990's, 30 years ago. Doctrine has evolved in 30 years. After all, 1960's weapons were irrelevant in the 90's. And yes while there are subsystems that Russia does better, China also has subsystems superior to Russian ones, such as electronics.

You can tell that there's a huge difference in doctrine between China and Russia. For example from J-10 there's a doctrinal requirement in China - for medium single engine multirole fighters - that Russia doesn't have at all. Russian geography dictates that they strongly prefer 2 engine fighters while Chinese geography allows for single engine fighters. Another example is, in navy, China and Russia have completely different requirements and ambitions. Russian strategy is to protect their bastions but for China, bastion protection isn't enough, power projection is a requirement. You see that with Russia building only small surface ships while China is building massive amounts of large surface combatants.

There are places where Chinese and Russian equipment overlap ie Flankers. But even with same equipment, China uses Flankers in a totally different role (multirole and strikers) than Russia (only air superiority).

 

[MH.Yang]

Probleum is why russia arming india against stategic partner china

As long as India has money, Indians can buy enough weapons.
Rather than let the Americans or the French make money, let the Russians make money. So we don't mind Russia selling weapons to India.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Sure, the doctrines may different, but China has adopted a lot of Russian equipment to its war fighting strategy in the past. Perhaps nowadays, wholesale acquisition of Russian platforms may no longer be relevant, but certain sub-systems could still be areas where Russia still exceeds the performance of current Chinese systems.

Perhaps the Tu-160 was just too complicated and expensive for the Soviets to procure. A potential Chinese variant could be constructed more efficiently, and just like the B-1B, could still fit the role of low level anti ship missile truck. Is the H-20 suppose to be a subsonic design or a supersonic capable design?

But I would agree, a Twin Engine design is more realistic then a Four engine design. Down the line it maybe desired, post a Taiwan scenario, where operations in the second and third island chain would require the extended range. Even then the Tu-160 would have to be redesigned to deal with modern challenges.

A closer strategic cooperation is to exchange and to open up the inventory from both side.

China is still interested to see some top secrets of Russia's strategic weapons from the nuclear sub and strategic bomber.

Russia also wants to see China's recent achievements like EMALS, railgun, shaftless pump-jet propulsion for the nuclear sub.

In the end, both side could get a major upgrade for their inventory.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

The upgraded Tu-160 is still very good, and it could be complementary with the H-20.

The total stealthy strategic bomber like the H-20 can never carry as much of missiles as the non-stealthy T-160.

If Russia can make some exchange with China in the air/naval technologies, then it could be a win-win situation as it could greatly improve the shortcomings from both side.

But I would agree, a Twin Engine design is more realistic then a Four engine design. Down the line it maybe desired, post a Taiwan scenario, where operations in the second and third island chain would require the extended range. Even then the Tu-160 would have to be redesigned to deal with modern challenges.

The issue is that Tu-160 is a very large and heavy aircraft, almost 2x the size of H-6, requires 4x engines, and has a heavy and expensive swing wing mechanism. Its advantages in range and speed are not too relevant. Tu-22M carries almost as many weapons but is far cheaper.

If material improvements were used in proportion to the improvement in J-11B (700 kg improvement for a 20 m length fighter) then a Chinese version of Tu-22M (40 m plane), we call it "H-22", with modern materials might have ~1400 kg improvement in weight. With better avionics, the swing wing mechanism can be reduced/removed and made lighter. I estimate that a H-22 might be lighter by ~2000 kg from the original, which already was ~5000 kg higher payload than the H-6 with longer range and higher speed. A 7000 kg payload advantage over H-6 at equal range means 3 more cruise missiles or 14 more 500 kg bombs which is a vast improvement.

And since there's still only 2 engines, the engine cost and maintenance cost does not increase too much. Only airframe increases cost.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

The issue is that Tu-160 is a very large and heavy aircraft, almost 2x the size of H-6, requires 4x engines, and has a heavy and expensive swing wing mechanism. Its advantages in range and speed are not too relevant. Tu-22M carries almost as many weapons but is far cheaper.

If material improvements were used in proportion to the improvement in J-11B (700 kg improvement for a 20 m length fighter) then a Chinese version of Tu-22M (40 m plane), we call it "H-22", with modern materials might have ~1400 kg improvement in weight. With better avionics, the swing wing mechanism can be reduced/removed and made lighter. I estimate that a H-22 might be lighter by ~2000 kg from the original, which already was ~5000 kg higher payload than the H-6 with longer range and higher speed. A 7000 kg payload advantage over H-6 at equal range means 3 more cruise missiles or 14 more 500 kg bombs which is a vast improvement.

And since there's still only 2 engines, the engine cost and maintenance cost does not increase too much. Only airframe increases cost.

The upgraded Tu-160 with hypersonic missiles will still be unstoppable, and that's why the US chooses the B-52 as the platform to test the hypersonic missile, not the stealthy B-2.

As long as India has money, Indians can buy enough weapons.
Rather than let the Americans or the French make money, let the Russians make money. So we don't mind Russia selling weapons to India.

China not only could allow Russia to earn more money, but also to acquire more technology bonus for Russia in both civilian and military.

This luxury is something that India can never provide.

Also China is too strong for India to even touch it, and that's why Russia knows that China wouldn't mind if they sell some weapons to India just to earn few more bucks.

 

[IblinI]

Heavy Attack Helicopters

Already under development.

China could purchase dozens of Su-57

Simply impossible.

could apply a lot of the technology from the Su-57 to all the Flanker programs in China including the J-15 program to potentially create a derivative Stealth Design as a dedicated carrier fighter, larger then the J-35 and to replace the J-15.

J-15 will coexist with stealth fighter J-35 for a long time just like E/F super hornet and F35C.

China could also procure the T-14 Armata Tank

Also under development and the chief designer of Type 99A once revealed it could be a two men crew with a lot of new tech approaches.

 

[MH.Yang]

A closer strategic cooperation is to exchange and to open up the inventory from both side.

China is still interested to see some top secrets of Russia's strategic weapons from the nuclear sub and strategic bomber.

Russia also wants to see China's recent achievements like EMALS, railgun, shaftless pump-jet propulsion for the nuclear sub.

In the end, both side could get a major upgrade for their inventory.

Russia's SSBN is really better than ours. But I don't think it is necessary for us to study the new SSBN with Russia. Especially when 096 is about to be put into use.
Three important technologies of nuclear submarine: pressure hull, silent propulsion and reactor
1, China has the world's largest forging press and plate bending machine.
2, China has shaftless pump jet electromagnetic propulsion technology (Our technology is ahead of the USA).
3, We have nuclear submarine reactor technology(America has the best technology).
Two of the three important technologies we are the first in the world. We have no reason to cooperate with the Russians.

 

[Nan Yang]

What is China’s war theory with regard to bombers?

The number one threat to China's sovereignty is Taiwan.
Thus China's strategy is Anti access and area denial to US carriers and to complicate US intervention.
Any weapons system also needs to fit into the Pacific theater.
The Pacific theater is very different from the European theater. Pacific theater is vast expense of sea. US bases are few and far apart or far away. European theater is all land with many many bases.

Majority of US weapons are designed for the European theater. All Chinese weapons are designed with US carriers in mind and for the Pacific theater from the start.

 

[FuturePAF]

Already under development.


Simply impossible.

J-15 will coexist with stealth fighter J-35 for a long time just like E/F super hornet and F35C.


Also under development and the chief designer of Type 99A once revealed it could be a two men crew with a lot of new tech approaches.

Wouldn’t the PLAN want the J-15 design evolved into something like the Su-57? Reduced RCS while still having the range and payload capacity to carry heavier weapons. Perhaps the J-15 fits into PLAN thinking the same way a 4.5 Gen F-18E/F still fits into USN doctrine.

 

[IblinI]

Wouldn’t the PLAN want the J-15 design evolved into something like the Su-57? Reduced RCS while still having the range and payload capacity to carry heavier weapons. Perhaps the J-15 fits into PLAN thinking the same way a 4.5 Gen F-18E/F still fits into USN doctrine.

then it is no different from designing a new plane, it has its own role and will be modified through future blocks.

 

[MH.Yang]

Wouldn’t the PLAN want the J-15 design evolved into something like the Su-57? Reduced RCS while still having the range and payload capacity to carry heavier weapons. Perhaps the J-15 fits into PLAN thinking the same way a 4.5 Gen F-18E/F still fits into USN doctrine.

I don't think China is interested in the su57 platform. China will not join the su57 project.

 

[Polestar 2]

Probleum is why russia arming india against stategic partner china

I think China has never ask Russia not to send any weapon to whichever independent countries.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Russia's SSBN is really better than ours. But I don't think it is necessary for us to study the new SSBN with Russia. Especially when 096 is about to be put into use.
Three important technologies of nuclear submarine: pressure hull, silent propulsion and reactor
1, China has the world's largest forging press and plate bending machine.
2, China has shaftless pump jet electromagnetic propulsion technology (Our technology is ahead of the USA).
3, We have nuclear submarine reactor technology(America has the best technology).
Two of the three important technologies we are the first in the world. We have no reason to cooperate with the Russians.

Well, the Borei class is overall better than the Type 094.

And the Type 096 is overall comparable to the Borei class, and if it can incorporate some leading technologies from the Borei class, it could become even better.

And China's shaftless pump-jet propulsion is also useful to upgrade Russia's SSBN/SSN.

When we don't have something really special for exchange, I don't think Russia would give her top secrets about its SSBN.

Not necessarily in exchange for the SSBN, since the newest Type 094 can launch the JL-3, and it is safely guarded by the PLAN in the South China Sea. It is already a credible sea deterrence for China.

But it looks like Russia is very interested for exchange for some top military technologies, and it is worthy to deepen our ties.

 

[Reichsmarschall]

I propose to cooperate with Russia in three aspects:
1, the next generation of non stealth strategic bombers.
2, the next generation of 30+ ton large general purpose helicopter.
3, medium and small caliber machine cannon.

How do Chinese feel about Russians exporting high tech weapons to India?
Shouldn't pre condition for cooperation be that Russia stop army that belligerent regime in south Asia?

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

How do Chinese feel about Russians exporting high tech weapons to India?
Shouldn't pre condition for cooperation be that Russia stop army that belligerent regime in south Asia?

India is really too weak to pose a real threat to us, and we are not coercive like the US.

When it comes to the US, Russia always got 100% consensus with us, and that's good enough.