Royal Pakistan Airforce (1947-1956).

[SABRE]

When Pakistan got independence most of our military leadership,civil bureaucracy,heads of educational institutions and all other departments were British. As they migrated back to their country gradually the space was filled in by the locals. I do agree that the British Establishment of Pakistan than ,had a lot of influence on our nascent country which was replaced gradually by Uncle Sam,even till today unfortunately.

More or less on the spot. With local airmen like Asghar Khan and Noor Khan RPAF/PAF began transitioning from British model to American model. The British influence had compelled RPAF/PAF to acquire Supermarine Attacker, which was not well received and with British left with little to offer in air power department PAF turned to the Americans who had made major inroads in the jet technology compared to other countries. Whether PAF's transition from British influence to American influence was unfortunate or fortunate is very subjective. I think it very much went into PAF/Pakistan's favour. Americans provided PAF with scaled back versions of F-86 Sabre, perhaps for political reasons or financial, but they were nonetheless state-of-the-art from South Asian regional perspective and proved their worth against British jets in the IAF's service. PAF pilots began getting training in and from the U.S. for which the Americans provided some of their top instructors over the years, including Chuck Yeager who was first person to fly supersonic. But the most important takeaway from the Americans has been the philosophizing of the air power in PAF. Needless to say, American air power philosophy and practice was and remains superior to its counterparts.

Our relations with the U.S. may be unfortunate but the technology, knowledge, and experience gained from them is invaluable and irreplaceable.

 

[ghazi52]

1949

 

[Cuirassier]

Can someone list the accidental losses of the RPAF during the Kashmir War (even though it wasn't involved in combat operations). I recall that ACM Asghar Khan's younger brother, Pilot Officer Asaf Khan was killed in a crash at Gilgit in 1948.

 

[ghazi52]

Apprentice Flyer
3rd April 1950: Commander-in-Chief Royal Pakistan Air Force, Air Vice-Marshall R L R Atcherley talking to one of the sixty eight Pakistani apprentices during an inspection at RAF Station Halton, Buckinghamshire.

 

[TNT]

It could be due to the fact that the young nowadays take so many things for granted; I am still rather surprised at the ‘nativity’ of many of my fellow Pakistani members. This is a scholarly forum, kindly permit me to set the record straight

Except for Turkey, Iran & Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, and Yemen, virtually the entire Muslim world was under the domination of a Western Colonial Master. Allies also occupied Iran kicked all the German engineers out and replaced the King with his son.

Turkey was the only relatively modern country but most of her AirPower, following the defeat in WW1 had been with the help of the Allies and it was not until 1932 that Turkey started training her own pilots.

Most of the Turkish Air Fleet consisted of, until the end of WW2, allied made aircraft such as Hawker Hurricane, Spitfire, Bristol Brenham & Beau fighter, Mosquito, & C-47. Royal Indian Air force was also established in 1932 and received as good training on similar kinds of aircraft as the Turkish Air staff. Pakistan received her share of the men & material from RIIAF and called it the RPAF. Nearly all of the senior officers of the RPAF had been serving with their juniors for years and were familiar with their capabilities and training.

As a matter of fact, Pakistani pilots and technicians at the time of partition were equal to their Turkish counterparts in experience & training. Most importantly, Turkish Air force staff was no match to the RAF personnel in combat experience & training in 1947. Hence replacing RAF personnel with equally competent staff from the Muslim countries was an impossibility. One must not ignore that until 1965, it was Pakistan that provided training to the neighboring Muslim armed forces personnel.

To the best of my info, most pilots form the subcontinent got their wings in 1942 or thereafter. For example, Asghar Khan was only a Squadron Leader at the end of WW2 and was the first commander of the Risalpur Academy.

One cannot seriously expect Sq. leader (Major) to Command the entire Air force. However in 1957, when he had reached the rank of Air Commodore and had experienced at the senior Command & Staff positions, Asghar Khan took over as first Pakistani head of RPAF in 1957.

Regarding Gen Gracy's role:

The young are so easily misled by made up history & conspiracy theories. I was a 4-year child living at Sialkot in October 1947 where my father was a Supervisor at the Military Dairy Farm located near Dalowali, right on the Jammu border and involved in supplying milk & butter to the army personnel at the Jammu front. Thus he received firsthand information about what was really happening.

After the invasion of nearly 5000 Pathan tribesmen equipped by the Pakistan Army (Brigadier Akbar Khan) on October 22, 1047, Kashmir's Raja Hari Singh decided to accede to India. Indian forces arrived in Kashmir and pushed back the tribesmen. Quaid-e-Azam ordered Gen Gracy to help the tribesmen and Pakistan Army entered the war in May 1948.

India had received two-third of the British Indian Army & Air force Assets and only 20% of cash assets of the British Indian govt. Besides, full share of Pakistan, parts of which were at Indian locations, as released only slowly. Thus by the start of the 1948 Kashmir conflict, even though the quality of the equipment was exactly the same, the Indians were better equipped and far superior in numbers.

At that time, Pakistan was also a ‘Dominion’ therefore Pakistan Army came under the command of Gen Auchinleck, who was C-in.C of both the Indian & Pakistani Armies, thus boss of Lt Gen Gracy. In order to avoid British Officers who were aplenty on both sides getting killed. Opposing commanders were in constant touch and moved the forces under their command forward or retreated as the situation required. This frustrated Nehru and it was Nehru who took the dispute to the United Nations.

Therefore putting the blame on Kashmir stalemate on the British Officers is unfair and unjustified. There was no guarantee that a poorly equipped Pakistan Army would have won a long protracted Kashmir war against vastly superior Indian forces. Gen Gracy did not sabotage Kashmir jihad. It was hurriedly & poorly planned and instead of helping the Poonch rebellion by Sardar Abdul Qayyum Khan of Bagh with funds & equipment (keeping it a local insurgency and probably avoiding Hari Singh from signing the instrument of accession) Brigadier Akbar Khan armed Pushtoom tribesmen who also indulged in looting the locals enabling India to call the jihad an “invasion" by Pakistan.

In fact, we should be thankful to Major Brown of the Gilgit Scouts who helped the liberation of Gilgit & Baltistan from the Dogra rule.

Thank you sir for a very informative post. I am however aware of the circumstances of army and Pakistan at that time. Being lead by british helped pak military become professional, but as i mentioned it came with a cost. Integrating freedom fighters in army would also have been a difficult task but would have brought unity and strength.

Sir i also have personally met kashmir jihad veterans in the north. They say the locals betrayed them on many occasions, their positions were given away. They say the locals would greet them, take a note of nmbrs n arms strength n would inform indian, who then raided. Its understandable this would have caused reaction from jihadi tribesmen. They also say the nmbr of jihadis were increasing but then army stopped them and asked them to go back as india have accepted defeat. latter it was known its a stalemate.
Anyhow things could have turned worst too and we are Thankful to Allah for what we have.

 

[niaz]

Honorable T|/|T,
You are right. The rebellion was limited to Poonch & Gilgit/Baltistan only. It is also correct that the majority of local Kashmiri Muslims from the valley followed Sh Abdulla who was partial towards India. You cannot liberate those who do not want to be liberated.

Besides some Tribesmen were also involved in looting & wanton destruction. Kindly read the BBC Report

Partition 70 years on: When tribal warriors invaded Kashmir
By M Ilyas KhanBBC News, north-west Pakistan
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-41662588

In my post, only pointed out that Gracy may not have cooperated with military action, but to accuse Gracy of sabotaging the Jihad effort and by implication insinuate that all British Officers were anti-Pakistan was unjustified.

In my lifetime, I have seen three Kashmir adventures; in 1948, in 1965 & finally the Kargil war of 1999. Regret to say that all of these were poorly planned and not completely thought thru.

 

[messiach]

Factually correct.

After the invasion of nearly 5000 Pathan tribesmen equipped by the Pakistan Army (Brigadier Akbar Khan) on October 22, 1047, Kashmir's Raja Hari Singh decided to accede to India.

At that time, Pakistan was also a ‘Dominion’ therefore Pakistan Army came under the command of Gen Auchinleck, who was C-in.C of both the Indian & Pakistani Armies, thus boss of Lt Gen Gracy. In order to avoid British Officers who were aplenty on both sides getting killed. Opposing commanders were in constant touch and moved the forces under their command forward or retreated as the situation required. This frustrated Nehru and it was Nehru who took the dispute to the United Nations.

Therefore putting the blame on Kashmir stalemate on the British Officers is unfair and unjustified. There was no guarantee that a poorly equipped Pakistan Army would have won a long protracted Kashmir war against vastly superior Indian forces. Gen Gracy did not sabotage Kashmir jihad. It was hurriedly & poorly planned and instead of helping the Poonch rebellion by Sardar Abdul Qayyum Khan of Bagh with funds & equipment (keeping it a local insurgency and probably avoiding Hari Singh from signing the instrument of accession) Brigadier Akbar Khan armed Pushtoom tribesmen who also indulged in looting the locals enabling India to call the jihad an “invasion" by Pakistan.

In fact, we should be thankful to Major Brown of the Gilgit Scouts who helped the liberation of Gilgit & Baltistan from the Dogra rule.

 

[Signalian]

It could be due to the fact that the young nowadays take so many things for granted; I am still rather surprised at the ‘nativity’ of many of my fellow Pakistani members. This is a scholarly forum, kindly permit me to set the record straight

Except for Turkey, Iran & Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, and Yemen, virtually the entire Muslim world was under the domination of a Western Colonial Master. Allies also occupied Iran kicked all the German engineers out and replaced the King with his son.

Turkey was the only relatively modern country but most of her AirPower, following the defeat in WW1 had been with the help of the Allies and it was not until 1932 that Turkey started training her own pilots.

Most of the Turkish Air Fleet consisted of, until the end of WW2, allied made aircraft such as Hawker Hurricane, Spitfire, Bristol Brenham & Beau fighter, Mosquito, & C-47. Royal Indian Air force was also established in 1932 and received as good training on similar kinds of aircraft as the Turkish Air staff. Pakistan received her share of the men & material from RIIAF and called it the RPAF. Nearly all of the senior officers of the RPAF had been serving with their juniors for years and were familiar with their capabilities and training.

As a matter of fact, Pakistani pilots and technicians at the time of partition were equal to their Turkish counterparts in experience & training. Most importantly, Turkish Air force staff was no match to the RAF personnel in combat experience & training in 1947. Hence replacing RAF personnel with equally competent staff from the Muslim countries was an impossibility. One must not ignore that until 1965, it was Pakistan that provided training to the neighboring Muslim armed forces personnel.

To the best of my info, most pilots form the subcontinent got their wings in 1942 or thereafter. For example, Asghar Khan was only a Squadron Leader at the end of WW2 and was the first commander of the Risalpur Academy.

One cannot seriously expect Sq. leader (Major) to Command the entire Air force. However in 1957, when he had reached the rank of Air Commodore and had experienced at the senior Command & Staff positions, Asghar Khan took over as first Pakistani head of RPAF in 1957.

Regarding Gen Gracy's role:

The young are so easily misled by made up history & conspiracy theories. I was a 4-year child living at Sialkot in October 1947 where my father was a Supervisor at the Military Dairy Farm located near Dalowali, right on the Jammu border and involved in supplying milk & butter to the army personnel at the Jammu front. Thus he received firsthand information about what was really happening.

After the invasion of nearly 5000 Pathan tribesmen equipped by the Pakistan Army (Brigadier Akbar Khan) on October 22, 1047, Kashmir's Raja Hari Singh decided to accede to India. Indian forces arrived in Kashmir and pushed back the tribesmen. Quaid-e-Azam ordered Gen Gracy to help the tribesmen and Pakistan Army entered the war in May 1948.

India had received two-third of the British Indian Army & Air force Assets and only 20% of cash assets of the British Indian govt. Besides, full share of Pakistan, parts of which were at Indian locations, as released only slowly. Thus by the start of the 1948 Kashmir conflict, even though the quality of the equipment was exactly the same, the Indians were better equipped and far superior in numbers.

At that time, Pakistan was also a ‘Dominion’ therefore Pakistan Army came under the command of Gen Auchinleck, who was C-in.C of both the Indian & Pakistani Armies, thus boss of Lt Gen Gracy. In order to avoid British Officers who were aplenty on both sides getting killed. Opposing commanders were in constant touch and moved the forces under their command forward or retreated as the situation required. This frustrated Nehru and it was Nehru who took the dispute to the United Nations.

Therefore putting the blame on Kashmir stalemate on the British Officers is unfair and unjustified. There was no guarantee that a poorly equipped Pakistan Army would have won a long protracted Kashmir war against vastly superior Indian forces. Gen Gracy did not sabotage Kashmir jihad. It was hurriedly & poorly planned and instead of helping the Poonch rebellion by Sardar Abdul Qayyum Khan of Bagh with funds & equipment (keeping it a local insurgency and probably avoiding Hari Singh from signing the instrument of accession) Brigadier Akbar Khan armed Pushtoom tribesmen who also indulged in looting the locals enabling India to call the jihad an “invasion" by Pakistan.

In fact, we should be thankful to Major Brown of the Gilgit Scouts who helped the liberation of Gilgit & Baltistan from the Dogra rule.

Thank you. Some information on Polish contribution in PAf would have been appreciated.

 

[niaz]

Thank you. Some information on Polish contribution in PAf would have been appreciated.

I did not mention the significant Polish contribution because we were discussing the Muslim versus British only. On second thought, I freely admit that Polish pilots provided great help to Pakistan's fledgling Air Force and their omission was an error on my part.

 

[aliyusuf]

30.12.2018, 17:55

Polish and Pakistani officials commemorated the 70th anniversary of the deployment of Polish pilots and experts who had a crucial role in creating, in 1948 and over the following years, the Pakistani Air Force.

“These were the heroes of the second world war. But because of the tragedy of Polish history they were unable to return to their country,” Shafkat Ali Khan, Pakistani ambassador to Poland said in an interview for Poland In.

Pakistan was created as a state after separating from British India in 1947. It had to immediately build its armed forces as from the very beginning of its existence, the country had to fight a war with the freshly emerged independent India for the control of Kashmir.

The Karachi government sent a military mission to Britain in search of new pilots who could replace the Royal Air Force crewmen leaving for their country. Poles turned out to be the most logical choice: freshly released from disbanded Polish squadrons, most of them had experience of intense fights with the German Luftwaffe and were unwilling to go back to communist controlled Poland.

Altogether 30 Polish military pilots and 16 ground personnel were contracted and started their service in Pakistan in the last days of 1948. One year later they led the newly trained Pakistani airmen into another border war with India.

Some of the Polish pilots served in the Pakistani Air Force (PAF) until 1957. Their commander was group captain Władysław Turowicz, who, due to a sight defect, could no longer take part in air missions but turned out to be a perfect air force commander and administrator.

After completing his service in PAF, Mr Turowicz, now promoted to the rank of air commodore, continued his work in Pakistan. In the 60s he was instrumental in developing, in partnership with the US Government, the Pakistani rocket and space programme.

According to Mr Piotr Opaliński, the current Polish envoy to Karachi, the contribution of Poles in forming the Pakistani Air Force is till today “a history which literally opens hearts and minds in Pakistan.”

source: POLAND IN

 

[hassan1]

https://www.facebook.com/groups/2093113904326110/

https://www.facebook.com/groups/pafclub/

 

[-blitzkrieg-]

Except for Turkey, Iran & Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, and Yemen, virtually the entire Muslim world was under the domination of a Western Colonial Master.

Many of these states were occupied by Britishers at some point in time and had already negotiated on getting their freedom.

Afghanistan - Treaty of Gandamak 1876 ,Treaty of Rawalpindi 1921
Imperial Iran- First Anglo-Persian war Treaty of Paris 1857, Second Anglo-Persian war UNSC 1946
Ottoman Empire- WW1 Treaty of Sèvres 1920
South Yemen Kingdom- British withdrawal 1967

Our problem was we were a minority that was always under the Sikh/Brahman/Afghan threat even before we lost the rebellion against British in 1857.In other words we got sandwiched between their conflicts and we used Britishers to step up our politics and enter the arena..Thats one of the reasons we are labelled as a British stooge by Afghans however it was our fight for survival and re-emerge on map this time differently.Present day Afghanistan considers their founding father a king who ceded away his land to Britishers for Kabul and has the audacity to call us a British agent..

 

[hassan1]

 

[ghazi52]

1955

 

[hassan1]