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PAF Today: Implications for India - Gp Capt B Menon

Another few more threads on this issue will completely tilt the balance in PAF's favour, over here in pdf and belief among most pakistani members.
But never the less I believe where Rafale failed to secure a QUALITATIVE edge, India might try again most probably in 6 months with announcement of a second line.
Fingers crossed.
 
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Here is a tricky question we got SD-10 missile range 80- 120km (Classified real)

So why this same missile cannot be fired from Ground to Air targets ? still covers 80/120 km range (Real range classified) etc

The only real work it seems is the radar that acquires and sets the target for missile is ground based vs in plane ?

amraam-780815-n-2343f-002.jpg


The conversion of SD-10 with some of our trucks for ground based launch should technically give us the Long range SAM

ORD_SAM_SLAMRAAM_FMTV_Launch_2010_lg.jpg
 
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Another article to boost budget resources for the IAF.
Are you stupid or do yu act like one ?
I am confused. Are you aware of that fact that how much CAPEX IAF Has been returning to MOD ?

Given the amount of PAF budget, they have done much better job at maintain total readiness and aircraft procurement, unlike you guys still struggling to purchase MOTHER OF ALL DEALS, and god knows those su30 screen going black and what.
 
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Given the amount of PAF budget, they have done much better job at maintain total readiness and aircraft procurement, unlike you guys still struggling to purchase MOTHER OF ALL DEALS, and god knows those su30 screen going black and what.
It is good for the military to have the military in charge of the country. Not so good for everyone else.
 
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Are you stupid or do yu act like one ?
I am confused. Are you aware of that fact that how much CAPEX IAF Has been returning to MOD ?

Given the amount of PAF budget, they have done much better job at maintain total readiness and aircraft procurement, unlike you guys still struggling to purchase MOTHER OF ALL DEALS, and god knows those su30 screen going black and what.

Everything could be discussed balanced, if you have an Auditing Authority like CAG. If there are any pls point that ?

There are many ''weak'' point in above piece of writing.....................

PAF don't have quality Edge on IAF yet. Although PAF have greatly reduced the margin of strength and will keep reducing in near future but still the Gap is simply very large.

We can balance or if possible even surpass the IAF in the form of Quality, but in Quantity IAF will remain larger force even if LCA program face more delays.

PAF need some serious steps if it really want match IAF in quality. Some systems already exists and more measure are needed in near future to nullify the PAF IAF quality edge as IAF is suffering from Delaying issues for the time being

1:We need to replace 12 squadrons by 2020 of legacy fighters by Jf17 and F16. We will be producing 24 Jf17 per year and we can induct surplus F16 from USA-Europe after MLU. This is the fastest and most efficent way of getting rid of legacy fighters in given time frame while keeping the advantage of Quality and quantity at balance.

View attachment 301257

2:We need to upgrade our Falcon fleet with AIM9X and IRST pod and weapon stations related to passive guidance systems. This is something which our falcon fleet lacks and need desperately.

3: We need to install IFR probe to Jf17 and need advance Targeting and ECM pods for Thunder fleet of Blk 1-2. IFR installation will free crucial hardpoints for carrying more munition. Also, Jf17 will achieve true multirole mission profile.
Central hardpoint for Targeting/ECM/IRST pod, 2 hardpoints for precise munition, 2 hardpoints for WVR and remaining two for BVR air to air missiles. Idea of Dual racks for housing two air to air missiles is also in piepeline. If these abilities are introduced than Jf17 will be able to strike at BVR, WVR as well as ground targets at the same time!

(Below Jf17 with IFR probe installed on Serial 229 for testing and evaluation)
View attachment 301256

(Below J10A with SD10 stationed on dual racks)
View attachment 301255

4: We need to make Blk3 a true 4+G aircraft. Like integrated IRST, HMCS, AESA, ECM capabilities,HOBS missiles (A Darter) and NG BVRAAM. Integration of RAAD cruise missile as Air Launched Cruise missile will be crucial.

5: We need a 4++ Generation aircraft. As a counter balance to Rafale. IAF will gain great boast by inducting Rafale. We need to counter balance it with similar generation platform in similar numbers. We need small number of High quality aircraft. Be it F16 Blk60 or b it Su35, need is there.

6: We have 4 ZDK03 and 2 Saab 2000 AWACS. We need two more AWACS inorder to recover the loss of two. 4 Il78 MRT are enough for now, as we have YET to install IFR probe. Once the number of aircrafts with ability to refuel in air will increase, number of tankers will increase too.

View attachment 301241

7: We are doing fine in the field of drone. Before 2020, PAF must have dedicated drone system which should be capable of Day-Night all weather operations and can be used for combat as well as recon. Considering the fact that IAF is interested and pursuing MQ1 Predator drone we should keep an eye on Chinese CH4 drone which carries AKD-10, YZ-200 air-to-surface missiles and LS-6 Satellite Aided Guided Bomb with the nose mounted electro-optical seekers to destroy targets at ground. As per Globalpost.com, we already have four Units in our arsenal for evaluation purpose.

View attachment 301242

8: In the field of SAM, we got Hq7B, we got Spada2000, we are getting Hq16, we have Hq9 (rumored). In air defense by 2020 we are doing fine. The combo of these four systems provide us multi layer, multi altitude air defense against aggressive air force

View attachment 301240

9: Indian air defense is threat particularity S400 which will be operational by that time. Specific threats need specific measures. We should keep an eye on Turkish Koral jamming system developed by Aselsan as a counter to long range SAM systems.

View attachment 301239

If PAF manage to follow up all above mentioned points, then it will have enough capability to take on IAF head on in any major aerial conflict. It will be able to match IAF in quality and IAF quantity will be due to presence of legacy fighters like Mig21 which pose no threat.

By 2020 PAF must be operating,

1: 110 F16 in total with 36 Blk50-52
2: 190+ Jf17 with 16 Blk III.
3: F7PG in three squadrons awaiting replacement
4: 36 4++Generation platform (if possible)
5: 8 AWACS
6: 4 Tankers

That PAF will be enough capable to not only deliver bloody nose to IAF but as well as punching knock out punch.
And PLAAF role will be an extra plus point, after all PAF and PLAAF have history of cooperation in drills which should be tested in real combat :pakistan: :cheers::china:

Instead of Talking about Nukes and Missiles we should develop our conventional ability to such a state that we should be able to beat the enemy with conventional force only .

@Manticore @Windjammer @MastanKhan @WAJsal @Side-Winder @Zarvan
@Quwa


Excellent Post Tipu7

Just one more point can be added Supersonic LIFT cum CAS platform such as Hongdu L-15, which can be LIFT lowering down the training cost, and increase the TBO and life of platform such as F-16, and could be used as CAS combat aircraft.

Successful completion of CPEC might be a decisive factor in China releasing the J-20 sale for Pakistan.

Is this based on your Gut Feeling and guess, than allow me to make speculation myself. J-20 won't be bought by any country, because no airforce in the world would need the fighter plane like J-20 , which is designed around the PLAAF doctorine of Area Denial, Area Access.

Another article to boost budget resources for the IAF.

The PAF does not have the financial resources to maintain their air force. The F-16s are bought partially with American taxpayer dollars. The JF-17s which are souped up MiG-21s are from China. It ignores the poor state of Pakistani air defenses.

The IAF made a mistake in the late 1990s. They should have paid off the Russians to setup a MiG-29 factory in India. I believe the Russians made the offer for a MiG-21 factory.

Initial Mig 29 B gave headache to IAF, and had many problems, till HAL ironed out many issued.

The original plan was to buy 50 Mirrage 2000 H, and license build 150 of them.

hat is good news

So Pakistan should Also Buy J 10 ; powered by WS 10 ; if it is finally ready

LOL

Russian Air force is busy in Ukraine ;Syria and is looking for ways to attack Turkey
who downed their plane :-)

They wont come to HELP INDIA

Any way Russia is TOO big

It needs to patrol its air space and
ALSO keep an eye on Arctic ocean ; Pacific Ocean -- Alaska AND Atlantic ocean

LOLZ, In Syria 4 Su 35, 4 Su 24, and 4 Su 30SM were deployed.
 
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The IAF has lost the qualitative edge vis-a-vis the PAF and the PLAAF, and may descend into numerical parity with the PAF for the first time in the near future because of our failure to induct new systems in time and in sufficient quantities. The IAF’s draw down will become critical by 2020 with all MiG 21s, MiG 27s and portions of the Jaguar fleet being phased out. No replacements in sufficient quantities are available as of now. While the Tejas Mk 1 LCA has technologies superior to the JF 17, the fact is that the latter has been in full operational service for some years, whereas the Tejas Mk 1 has not even been deployed and will be obsolescent soon. The Tejas Mk 2 variant is still on paper. One cannot fight a war using an aircraft which has some aspects of advanced technology incorporated but which is not combat-ready and available in very limited numbers. This mess is of our own making. Let alone a limited conflict on two fronts, we will soon lack the capabilities for a single front conflict if the situation is allowed to deteriorate further. Not just our combat fleet, but our helicopter, medium and light transport, intermediate and advanced trainer fleets, SAMs and a whole lot of other systems are obsolete and also not available in required numbers.

The disenchantment of the USA with Pakistan that began in the 1970s came to an end with the policy to counter the Soviet Union in Afghanistan…

At its birth in 1947, the Royal Pakistan Air Force (RPAF) inherited just a few Tempest fighters and Dakota transport aircraft along with some Harvard and Tiger Moth trainers. The Pakistan military in general and the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) in particular languished till May 1954 when Pakistan signed its first defence agreement with the USA. And then, in September 1954, Pakistan became a member of the South East Asian Treaty Organisation (SEATO) which was formed to contain Soviet influence in the region. Pakistan continued to be a member of SEATO till the end of 1971 and was also a member of the Central Treaty Organisation (CENTO) or the Baghdad Pact from its formation in 1955 till its dissolution in 1979.

Membership of the SEATO and CENTO provided the bonanza that the Pakistan military had fantasized about. The PAF rapidly expanded with the induction of F-86 and F-104 fighters, a radar-based Air Defence (AD) system, air-to-air missiles, B 57 bombers, C 130 transport aircraft and T 33 jet trainers. Within about seven years from 1955, the PAF grew from a collection of obsolete weaponry to a modern Air Force equipped with weapons almost equal to those of smaller Western air forces. Given the dominance of the Pakistan Army in the affairs of state from the early 1950s to date, the PAF as well as the Pakistan Navy (PN) has always played and continue to play a subservient role to the Army in both military and political fields. Military domination has been the bane of Pakistan but it has helped in rapid modernisation of the armed forces.

The main benefit that accrued to Pakistan from its SEATO membership was access to Western systems and training programmes as also participation in exercises with US, British and other NATO forces. PAF pilots were attached to the USAF and RAF flying squadrons for relatively long tenures. PAF squadrons participated in multinational exercises and two generations of personnel were trained abroad at no cost. The resultant exposure was invaluable. In contrast, the Indian military had limited exposure to outside forces and concepts and even this was confined to a few courses attended by individual officers. The Indian armed forces and the Indian Air Force (IAF) in particular, never got the chance to participate in multinational exercises till around 2004-2005 except for a brief exposure in 1963 during the Shiksha Air Defence Exercise.


The PAF went into the 1965 War with India with a balanced inventory of F-86 and F-104 fighters, B-57 bombers and C-130 transport aircraft. Replacements were available with friendly Arab states such as Jordan and countries to the West of Pakistan could provide sanctuary from IAF attacks if required. However, hopes of intervention from Western members of SEATO did not materialise.

The period between 1965 and 1971 saw the start of military ties with China and induction of equipment such as the F-6, the Chinese variant of the MiG-19 as also the French Mirage. The misadventure in East Pakistan was followed by its exit from SEATO. For the PAF and the rest of the military, the formation of Bangladesh reduced their area of responsibility. 1971 proved that the Eastern wing of Pakistan was militarily indefensible with the military resources situated in the Western wing.

The disenchantment of the USA with Pakistan that began in the 1970s came to an end with the policy to counter the Soviet Union in Afghanistan in the early 1980s. Induction of F-16 and additional Mirage fighters, upgrade of the AD network, acquisition of more helicopters and entry of Chinese A-5 fighters in 1983 and F-7 in 1988, were all supposedly to counter the Soviet threat but in reality, were India-specific. These inductions came at a time when the F-86, F-104 and B-57s were being phased out. However, sanctions to limit nuclear proliferation under the Pressler Amendment saw F-16 deliveries among other military aid items put on hold in the late 1980s. From 2007 onwards, the Chinese JF-17 inductions began. American efforts to get Pakistan onboard on their “war on terror” after 9/11 saw sanctions on supply of some systems being waived and F-16 deliveries and upgrades resumed. Induction of force multipliers such as Flight Refueling Aircraft (FRA) and Airborne Early Warning & Control (AEW&C) also began.


Present Capabilities

The organisational structure of the PAF with operational Commands on geographical lines is as under:

  • Northern Air Command (NAC), Peshawar
  • Central Air Command (CAC), Lahore
  • Southern Air Command (SAC), Karachi
  • Air Defence Command (ADC), Rawalpindi
  • Air Force Strategic Command (AFSC), Islamabad: This Command is responsible for the Air Force elements of Pakistan’s nuclear arsenal.
The PAF has around 450 combat aircraft of four types, distributed in around 20 Squadrons. The types of aircraft will reduce to three with the phasing out of the older fighters. There are 11 operational flying bases and eight other bases. There are approximately 30 airfields from which combat aircraft could operate including forward and satellite operating bases. Because of lack of geographical depth, all PAF bases are within easy reach of IAF strike aircraft and so dispersal of their aircraft becomes vital.

Combat Aircraft

Relaxation of sanctions enabled the modernisation and augmentation of the F-16 fleet. F-16 A/B aircraft were upgraded to the F-16 AM/BM Block 15 MLU standard, mostly by Turkish Aerospace Industries, between 2010 and 2014. F-16C/D Block 50/52 aircraft were acquired between 2010 and 2012. These upgrades plus acquisition of new air-to-air missiles gave a Beyond Visual Range (BVR) and night attack capability to the force. Mirage avionics, Radar Warning Receiver (RWR) and ECM systems were upgraded under the Retrofit of Strike Element (ROSE) programme in-house. The aim was to maintain the viability of the Mirage III and V platforms till their retirement and replacement by the JF-17s, a process which has already begun. About 50+ JF-17s have been inducted. Older Chinese F-7P fighters are still in service and are also supposed to be replaced by JF-17s. Pakistan is offering the JF-17 aircraft for export. The Chinese J-10B, which has had a troubled development history, could also be inducted into the PAF. Chinese stealth fighters like the J-20 and the J-31, once in production, could be sold to Pakistan. A table listing the known fighter types in the force is shown below.



Special


The IAF has lost the qualitative edge vis-a-vis the PAF and the PLAAF, and may descend into numerical parity with the PAF for the first time in the near future because of our failure to induct new systems in time and in sufficient quantities. The IAF’s draw down will become critical by 2020 with all MiG 21s, MiG 27s and portions of the Jaguar fleet being phased out. No replacements in sufficient quantities are available as of now. While the Tejas Mk 1 LCA has technologies superior to the JF 17, the fact is that the latter has been in full operational service for some years, whereas the Tejas Mk 1 has not even been deployed and will be obsolescent soon. The Tejas Mk 2 variant is still on paper. One cannot fight a war using an aircraft which has some aspects of advanced technology incorporated but which is not combat-ready and available in very limited numbers. This mess is of our own making. Let alone a limited conflict on two fronts, we will soon lack the capabilities for a single front conflict if the situation is allowed to deteriorate further. Not just our combat fleet, but our helicopter, medium and light transport, intermediate and advanced trainer fleets, SAMs and a whole lot of other systems are obsolete and also not available in required numbers.

The disenchantment of the USA with Pakistan that began in the 1970s came to an end with the policy to counter the Soviet Union in Afghanistan…

At its birth in 1947, the Royal Pakistan Air Force (RPAF) inherited just a few Tempest fighters and Dakota transport aircraft along with some Harvard and Tiger Moth trainers. The Pakistan military in general and the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) in particular languished till May 1954 when Pakistan signed its first defence agreement with the USA. And then, in September 1954, Pakistan became a member of the South East Asian Treaty Organisation (SEATO) which was formed to contain Soviet influence in the region. Pakistan continued to be a member of SEATO till the end of 1971 and was also a member of the Central Treaty Organisation (CENTO) or the Baghdad Pact from its formation in 1955 till its dissolution in 1979.

Membership of the SEATO and CENTO provided the bonanza that the Pakistan military had fantasized about. The PAF rapidly expanded with the induction of F-86 and F-104 fighters, a radar-based Air Defence (AD) system, air-to-air missiles, B 57 bombers, C 130 transport aircraft and T 33 jet trainers. Within about seven years from 1955, the PAF grew from a collection of obsolete weaponry to a modern Air Force equipped with weapons almost equal to those of smaller Western air forces. Given the dominance of the Pakistan Army in the affairs of state from the early 1950s to date, the PAF as well as the Pakistan Navy (PN) has always played and continue to play a subservient role to the Army in both military and political fields. Military domination has been the bane of Pakistan but it has helped in rapid modernisation of the armed forces.

The main benefit that accrued to Pakistan from its SEATO membership was access to Western systems and training programmes as also participation in exercises with US, British and other NATO forces. PAF pilots were attached to the USAF and RAF flying squadrons for relatively long tenures. PAF squadrons participated in multinational exercises and two generations of personnel were trained abroad at no cost. The resultant exposure was invaluable. In contrast, the Indian military had limited exposure to outside forces and concepts and even this was confined to a few courses attended by individual officers. The Indian armed forces and the Indian Air Force (IAF) in particular, never got the chance to participate in multinational exercises till around 2004-2005 except for a brief exposure in 1963 during the Shiksha Air Defence Exercise.


The PAF went into the 1965 War with India with a balanced inventory of F-86 and F-104 fighters, B-57 bombers and C-130 transport aircraft. Replacements were available with friendly Arab states such as Jordan and countries to the West of Pakistan could provide sanctuary from IAF attacks if required. However, hopes of intervention from Western members of SEATO did not materialise.

The period between 1965 and 1971 saw the start of military ties with China and induction of equipment such as the F-6, the Chinese variant of the MiG-19 as also the French Mirage. The misadventure in East Pakistan was followed by its exit from SEATO. For the PAF and the rest of the military, the formation of Bangladesh reduced their area of responsibility. 1971 proved that the Eastern wing of Pakistan was militarily indefensible with the military resources situated in the Western wing.

The disenchantment of the USA with Pakistan that began in the 1970s came to an end with the policy to counter the Soviet Union in Afghanistan in the early 1980s. Induction of F-16 and additional Mirage fighters, upgrade of the AD network, acquisition of more helicopters and entry of Chinese A-5 fighters in 1983 and F-7 in 1988, were all supposedly to counter the Soviet threat but in reality, were India-specific. These inductions came at a time when the F-86, F-104 and B-57s were being phased out. However, sanctions to limit nuclear proliferation under the Pressler Amendment saw F-16 deliveries among other military aid items put on hold in the late 1980s. From 2007 onwards, the Chinese JF-17 inductions began. American efforts to get Pakistan onboard on their “war on terror” after 9/11 saw sanctions on supply of some systems being waived and F-16 deliveries and upgrades resumed. Induction of force multipliers such as Flight Refueling Aircraft (FRA) and Airborne Early Warning & Control (AEW&C) also began.


Present Capabilities

The organisational structure of the PAF with operational Commands on geographical lines is as under:

  • Northern Air Command (NAC), Peshawar
  • Central Air Command (CAC), Lahore
  • Southern Air Command (SAC), Karachi
  • Air Defence Command (ADC), Rawalpindi
  • Air Force Strategic Command (AFSC), Islamabad: This Command is responsible for the Air Force elements of Pakistan’s nuclear arsenal.
The PAF has around 450 combat aircraft of four types, distributed in around 20 Squadrons. The types of aircraft will reduce to three with the phasing out of the older fighters. There are 11 operational flying bases and eight other bases. There are approximately 30 airfields from which combat aircraft could operate including forward and satellite operating bases. Because of lack of geographical depth, all PAF bases are within easy reach of IAF strike aircraft and so dispersal of their aircraft becomes vital.

Combat Aircraft

Relaxation of sanctions enabled the modernisation and augmentation of the F-16 fleet. F-16 A/B aircraft were upgraded to the F-16 AM/BM Block 15 MLU standard, mostly by Turkish Aerospace Industries, between 2010 and 2014. F-16C/D Block 50/52 aircraft were acquired between 2010 and 2012. These upgrades plus acquisition of new air-to-air missiles gave a Beyond Visual Range (BVR) and night attack capability to the force. Mirage avionics, Radar Warning Receiver (RWR) and ECM systems were upgraded under the Retrofit of Strike Element (ROSE) programme in-house. The aim was to maintain the viability of the Mirage III and V platforms till their retirement and replacement by the JF-17s, a process which has already begun. About 50+ JF-17s have been inducted. Older Chinese F-7P fighters are still in service and are also supposed to be replaced by JF-17s. Pakistan is offering the JF-17 aircraft for export. The Chinese J-10B, which has had a troubled development history, could also be inducted into the PAF. Chinese stealth fighters like the J-20 and the J-31, once in production, could be sold to Pakistan. A table listing the known fighter types in the force is shown below.



Special Mission Aircraft


Not in agreement with the article above. Everything the PAF now has is through hard work, indigenisation, professionalism and China. We are very limited in what we have. Unlike india who has near unlimited funds and is free to purchase the world's latest and best fighter jets from Russia and the west, Pakistan can only do that from one country, China. And at this precise moment in time, Chinese fighter jets are nearing but not at the same level of western and Russian fighters. A few token F-16s from america is not going to add much to the PAF.

What the author doesn't mention much is that india is now in the process of purchasing huge numbers of the latest advanced fighter jets from france and Russia. This will once again massively tip the balance in favour of the iaf vis-a-vis the PAF.

Until the J-20 and J-31 don't go online and Pakistan doesn't receive them, than iaf will continue to have a massive edge over the PAF.
 
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Everything could be discussed balanced, if you have an Auditing Authority like CAG. If there are any pls point that ?




Excellent Post Tipu7

Just one more point can be added Supersonic LIFT cum CAS platform such as Hongdu L-15, which can be LIFT lowering down the training cost, and increase the TBO and life of platform such as F-16, and could be used as CAS combat aircraft.



Is this based on your Gut Feeling and guess, than allow me to make speculation myself. J-20 won't be bought by any country, because no airforce in the world would need the fighter plane like J-20 , which is designed around the PLAAF doctorine of Area Denial, Area Access.



Initial Mig 29 B gave headache to IAF, and had many problems, till HAL ironed out many issued.

The original plan was to buy 50 Mirrage 2000 H, and license build 150 of them.



LOL



LOLZ, In Syria 4 Su 35, 4 Su 24, and 4 Su 30SM were deployed.

What good are the su-30s and su-35s to Russia when they dare not take their revenge on Turkey for shooting down one of their fighter jets. It's a mockery of their so called powerful military. Makes them look like a bunch of cowards. Another hype machine.
 
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Hello All
We not only lack deep strike but we also are very short in numbers on the birds that can surly defend our own airspace , birds that can put a challenge to vast IAF Numbers and different types with different Gen Levels and can shoot them or hunt them down,
PAF seriously (on war footing) need to upgrade JF17 need more birds like J10C and some heavies,(build or buy).
So until that happen IAF have the upper hand on PAF and if they don't feel it man then a big woow:eek::crazy: and one can only wonder What really they want that can satisfy them:haha:. lol
Thanks foe reading
 
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Everything could be discussed balanced, if you have an Auditing Authority like CAG. If there are any pls point that ?
Avoid using one liner sentences.
Because it doesnt helps the reader to understand what youre trying to say, just like I am unable to grasp what you mean by that

It is good for the military to have the military in charge of the country. Not so good for everyone else.
How is that even related to what I said ?
 
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We lack deep penetration fighter jet it is a big hole in our air power countries like Egypt Algeria buying SU 35 and MIG 35:These countries are no richer than us how do they manage it

They made the right political choices by siding with Saudi Arabia and having the Saudis bankroll their purchases. Pakistan which has troops stationed in Saudi Arabia couldn't muster the political courage to exploit its special relationship and is now in a strange position of having troops in Saudi Arabia and yet playing a stranger card of neutrality. Pakistan has lost a historic opportunity and now even countries like India are exploiting this Pakistani blunder by opening up with the kingdom.
 
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A rather painted over article by a senior officer. Perhaps more focused on getting the public opinion towards pushing for the needlessly delayed defence deals done and going.

The IAF still holds a good lead in any long term conflict prospect as this article fails to mention. Rather, the author is talking of a total superiority wish the IAF wishes to get against all its adversaries.
 
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