Now that was good and detailed reply, i appreciate that.
1. Yes one should follow who brings clear proof and logic to you as what is wrong or right. So give me proof that touching kabaa or maqaam e ibrahim is so big a shirk that wahabis placed a person there to call every body mushrik? With Quran and sunnah. Where it is forbidden to touch it bcz of love not bcz of anything else?
2. It seems right to me to touch kabaa and maqam e ibrahim or to kiss Quran, and it is not obligatory but im not doing shirk bcz of that. other examples can be given but my personal experince with wahabi saudis is enough. Since they are the flag-bearer of wahabism.
3. If that's what you think personally then it's appreciable.
4. That is a very very long debate and you cannot convince me to stop abusing him. Not for a single second about that yazid lanat ulla illeh. If you want me to put forward my arguments i will and that will be very long. You have the right to not to abuse him though. Its up to you. But my hate is extreme for him. If he was not the killer but ibn e ziyad was then when did yazeed removed him from the governorship of kuffa and when did he punished him? Never. I can never stop abusing a person who plundered madina and cause massacre and rape there. May Allah send him to the deepest hell.
5. About the nasbiayat of ibn taymiya i have no doubt. And i don't want to follow him even for a moment.
if you analyze the personality of ibn taimiyah and his writings you come to know that ibn taimiyah was a nasibi. let me cite you some examples:-
1/ shah abdul aziz dehalvi, one of the greatest scholars that sub continent has produced, who wrote world famous books against shias named taufay ahtna ashariya said in his fatwas:-
ibn taimiyah wrote abominable things against ahl bait in his books, which sadden hearts of ahl sunnah( fatwai aziziya)
2/ ibn tamiyah wrote
We read in Minhaj al-Sunnah, Volume 8 page 205:
وأما إسلام علي فهل يكون مخرجا له من الكفر على قولين
There are two opinions as to whether Ali's conversion to Islam released him from kufr or not"
Minhaj al-Sunnah, Volume 4 page 137:
وعلي رضي الله عنه كان قصده أن يتزوج عليها فله في أذاها غرض
“Ali intended to marry so as to hurt her (Fatima) on purpose.”
2/ Relevantly, comments like the above that we cited that were so outrageous that we read in Lisan al-Mizan, by ibn Hajar, Volume 6, page 320:
"The exaggeration in refuting the Rafidhi text has sometimes taken him to towards belittling Ali (ra)"
3/ a very famous hadith about the merits of Ali recorded by many authentic chain of narrations was rejected by ibn taimiyah without any reason. sheikh al albani debated on this in these words
Albaani commented in 'Silsila Sahiha' volume 5, page 222 as follows:
فمن العجيب حقا أن يتجرأ شيخ الإسلام ابن تيمية على إنكار هذا الحديث و تكذيبه في " منهاج السنة "
“It is really strange that Sheikh ul Islam dared to deny this hadith and deemed it a lie in his book Minhaj al-Sunnah”
3/ it is common knowledge that our imam , imam abu hanifa(ra) was student of imam jafar as sadiq, the great grandson of Ali(ra). ibn taimiyah rejected it without any proof. allama shibli noamani (ra) wrote that it was foolishness of ibn taimiyah to write this lie, as all knowledge of sunni fiqh came from the house of Ali(ra).
likewise, Hafiz Ahmad bin Sidiq (d. 1354 H) records in 'Fath al-Malik al-Ali' page 109:
غلاة النواصب كابن تيمية وأضرابه
"The extremist Nawasib such as Ibn Taimiyah and those to him."
Allamah Hasan bin Ali al-Saqqaf (born in 1961) is a contemporary Sunni scholar of modern day. He is the chief of Imam Nawawi center in Jordan. He has been the student of some esteemed Sunni scholars such as al-Azeemi (the margin writer of the book Sahih Ibn Khuzaima), Hafiz Ghemari and Sheikh Bouti. Allamah Saqqaf in the margin of the book 'Sahih Sharh Aqida Tahawya' page 651 states:
وممن سار على درب بني أمية وناصب سيدنا عليا والسيدة فاطمة وآل البيت الأطهار وطعن فيهم ابن تيمية الحراني وأصحابه النواصب
"From those who followed the path of Bani Ummaya and practiced Nasb against Ali, Lady Fatima, Ahlulbayt and attacked them is Ibn Taimiyah al-Harani and his Nasibi companions."
it is proved with many more examples that ibn taimiyah was a nasibi, a hater of Ali and ahl bait, except the wives of Rasool SAW.
Saudi's are sponsor and root cause of terrorism, extremism and rift between muslims. You can search it on internet and can find tons of material. Only wahabis are blind to see that.
So that's my point of view. And you have the right to reject it (which you will). Wahabis just quote the ayat of "To you your religion and to me mine" and "there is no compulsion in religion", but they do not let others keep their point of view and also try to force there views on others by getting extremist. Still most of the terrorist groups are wahabis, and which IDEOLOGY is making them extremist i think you might know better.
1- I explained it to you in the previous posts. No guard over there is going to ask for each and every one's intention first and then let him touch and kiss the maqam e Ebrahim or the ka'baa. It is their responsibility as the caretakers of the holy places to not let people indulge in unnecessary or innovative behaviour. The point is prevention and the effects of the people that will see and follow you regardless of intention. It will not draw you closer to Allah or you cant force this way for Allah to grant you your wishes. If you do with this intention then it makes it an innovation because these are not one of the taught ways to draw closer to Allah or get good deeds. You also have a responsibility as to what impression you are giving to the other people who might be not knowledgeable enough or will fall for the whims of shaitaan. Ut is not practical to check everyone's intention so they will ask everyone to stop as it has no benefit as a whole. If there was any benefit one could understand. It is way too much harm than any good. Another thing is they do not stop everyone just for touching. If you start being extreme towards it then only they will advice. People still do not tend to stop and think what do they know.
2- It depends on your intention first and foremost. There is no benefit in it as I said. Your kissing or touching of it won't make you holy or better in anyway. Why not play the safe side and avoid it as a whole is the main point. Human are not infallible. You can portray your emotions in a way that won't damage your iman due to the whims of shaitaan and a way that is proven by the prophet and the companions which is always preferable to Allah. Why do we make dua in the words of the prophet or the words taught by Allah in the Quran said by other prophets because they are preferable when invoking Allah as they were used by his best of the creation.
3- This is not my personal choice. This is what islam teaches. This is what all the credible scholars of Islam have taught. This is what Abdulwahab and ibn Taymiyyah taught. This IS the way of Islam. When ignorant muslims become the judge, jury and executioner muslims themselves tend to blame the saudi ideology or the wahabi ideology which they never taught and you have to answer to Allah for your accusations.
4- You don't need to convince me as I don't have to answer for him nor for anyone who martyred the grandsons of the prophet. Many things and issues of that time has a big question mark over them and cannot be accurately answered by sunnis or shias. Even sunni scholars don't see him in a good light but avoid it as a whole to curse or abuse him as it will not bring us any benefit or won't make us better muslims.
5- If you don't want to follow Ibn taymiyyah it is up to you. But don't fall or endorse the accusations against him. Which makes you nothing different to the ideology you blame on the saudis of calling others mushrik or kaafir. Neither you nor me have the knowledge of the unseen and I can bring you quotes of senior and famous scholars who talk about his credibility. The efforts of Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah began to bear fruit in his own time and have continued to do so until the present, affecting scholars and seekers of knowledge and Islamic groups that belong to Ahl al-Sunnah.The testimony of the imams of his own and subsequent eras makes clear to any fair-minded person the falseness of the claims that have been fabricated by the enemies of Islam and the enemies of the Sunnah against this prominent imam, and highlight his knowledge, understanding and strength of argument. Hence we may know the reason why the people of kufr and innovation fought against him, which was because he demolished their principles.
These words of praise and testimony in favour of this imam did not come only from his students and supporters but even his opponents testified that he surpassed others in knowledge and understanding and they even bore witness to his courage, generosity and jihad for the sake of Allaah in support of Islam.
a – Imam al-Dhahabi said listing his Shaykhs:
He is our Shaykh, the Shaykh of Islam, unrivalled in our time in terms of knowledge, courage, intelligence, spiritual enlightenment, generosity, sincerity towards the ummah, enjoining what is good and forbidding what is evil, and learning hadeeth – he put a great deal of effort into seeking it and writing it down, and he examined the different categories of narrators and acquired knowledge that no one else acquired.
He excelled in Qur’aanic commentary (tafseer) and delved deeply into its subtle meanings. He derived meanings from it that no one else managed to do before him. He also excelled in hadeeth and in the memorization thereof; very few have memorized as much hadeeth as he memorized. He attributed ahaadeeth to their proper sources and narrators, and he was able to quote readily whatever he needed to establish proof. He surpassed all people in knowledge of fiqh and the views of different madhhabs, and the fatwas of the Sahaabah and Taabi’een, so much so that when he issued a fatwa he did not adhere to the view of a madhhab, rather he based his fatwa on whichever view was supported by the stronger evidence. He excelled in knowledge of Arabic language, and studied issues on the basis of rationality and reason. He studied the views of the philosophers and refuted their arguments and pointed out their mistakes and warned against them. He supported the Sunnah with the strongest evidence and proofs. He was harmed for the sake of Allaah by his opponents and persecuted for his support of the pure Sunnah, until Allaah caused him to prevail and caused the pious to unite in loving him and praying for him, and suppressed his enemies and guided men of other groups and sects through him. Allaah made kings and commanders inclined to follow him and obey him, and he revived Syria – and indeed Islam – through his efforts, when it was almost defeated, by urging the rulers to resist the Tatars, when people were harbouring doubts about Allaah and the believers were tried and shaken with a mighty shaking (cf. al-Ahzaab 33:10-11), and hypocrisy grew strong.
His good qualities are many, and he is too great for a man like me to talk about his life. If I were to swear an oath between the Corner and the Maqaam I would swear that I have never seen anyone like him, and that he has never seen anyone like himself.
See:
Dhayl Tabaqaat al-Hanaabilah by Ibn Rajab al-Hanbali (4/390)
b- al-Mulla ‘Ali Qaari who said after quoting Ibn Hajar’s accusations against them and his criticism of their ‘aqeedah:
I say: Allaah protected them – i.e., Ibn al-Qayyim and his Shaykh Ibn Taymiyah – from this abhorrent accusation. The one who studies
Sharh Manaazil al-Saa’ireen by Nadeem al-Baari al-Shaykh ‘Abd-Allaah al-Ansaari, who is the Shaykh of Islam according to the Sufis, will clearly see that they were among Ahl al-Sunnah wa’l-Jamaa’ah and are indeed among the awliya’ (close friends of Allaah) of this ummah. Among what he said in the book mentioned was the following:
“These words of Shaykh al-Islam highlight his position as a prominent scholar of Ahl al-Sunnah, and his status among scholars, and it demonstrates that he is innocent of what his Jahami enemies accused him of, that he likened Allaah to His creation, as they usually accused the scholars of hadeeth and Sunnah, just as the Raafidis accuse them of being Naasibis, and the Naasibis accuse them of being Raafidis,, and the Mu’tazilah accuse them of being anthropomorphists. That is a legacy of the enemies of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) who accused him and his companions of having invented a new religion. And this is a legacy of the scholars of hadeeth and Sunnah from their Prophet, that the people of falsehood give them offensive labels.
c -May Allaah be pleased with our Shaykh Abu’l-‘Abbaas ibn Taymiyah when he said:
If being a Naasibi means loving the family of Muhammad, then let the two races (of mankind and jinn) bear witness that I am a Naasibi.
d- It is most amazing that this man was the staunchest opponent of the innovators such as the Raafidis, Huloolis and Ittihaadis, whose writings on that are many and well known, whose fatwas concerning them are too numerous to count. How happy they would be to realize that there are people who accuse him of kufr and say that the one who does not regard him as a kaafir is a kaafir. The one who claims to have knowledge, if he has any reason or sense, should ponder the man’s words in his famous books, or hear them from honest and trustworthy narrators, so that he will put aside what he finds objectionable and warn others by way of sincerity, and praise him for the matters he got right, as the attitude of other scholars should be. If there was no good quality in him except the fact that his student was Shaykh Shams al-Deen ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyyah, the author of so many beneficial books, from which everyone has benefited, both those who agree with him and those who oppose him, that would be sufficient indication of his great status, so how about when his prominence in various fields of knowledge and his distinction in the study of the texts was affirmed by the prominent Shaafa’is of his time and others, in addition to the Hanbalis? No attention should be paid to the one who calls him a kaafir despite all these achievements, or who describes the one who calls him “Shaykh al-Islam” as a kaafir, and he should be ignored with regard to this matter; indeed he should be rebuked for saying that, until he comes back to the truth. Allaah speaks the truth and He guides to the right way; Allaah is sufficient for us and He is the best disposer of affairs.
Said and written by Ahmad ibn ‘Ali ibn Muhammad ibn Hajar al-Shaafa’i, may Allaah forgive him, on Friday 9 Rabee’ al-Awwal, 835 AH.
e- al-Haafiz Jalaal al-Deen al-Suyooti (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:
Ibn Taymiyah, the Shaykh, the imam, the ‘allaamah (great scholar), the hafiz, the critic, the faqeeh, the mujtahid, the brilliant mufassir, the Shaykh of Islam, the leader of ascetics, the unrivalled in our time, Taqiy al-Deen Abu’l-Abbaas Ahmad al-Mufti Shihaab al-Deen ‘Abd al-Haleem, the son of the imam and mujtahid Shaykh al-Islam Majd al-Deen ‘Abd al-Salaam ibn ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Abi’l-Qaasim al-Haraani.
One of the prominent figures, he was born in Rabee’ al-Awwal 661 AH, and he learned from Ibn Abi’l-Yasar, Ibn ‘Abd al-Daa’im, and some others.
He took an interest in hadeeth, and narrated and selected (sound ahaadeeth); he excelled in the study of narrators’ biographies, defects in ahaadeeth, fiqh, the sciences of Islam, ‘ilm al-kalaam and other fields.
He was a man of vast learning, one of the few brilliant scholars, ascetics and unique individuals. He wrote three hundred books, and he was tested and persecuted many times.
He died in the latter part of Dhu’l-Qa’dah 628 AH.
Tabaqaat al-Huffaaz (p. 516, 517.
And I can quote many more of the scholars of the early generation. If you have better knowledge than these early scholars then you can make your own decision. For me the words of these scholars are enough to find him credible. Also reviewing his work has made him more credible in my eyes.
We read in Minhaj al-Sunnah, Volume 8 page 205:
وأما إسلام علي فهل يكون مخرجا له من الكفر على قولين
There are two opinions as to whether Ali's conversion to Islam released him from kufr or not"
Minhaj al-Sunnah, Volume 4 page 137:
I am guessing that you have read his book so I will answer you in brief otherwise it can be a lengthy discussion. In this quote Ibn Taymiyyah was only refuting Al-Hilee's. Al-Hilee's made certain charges against the other Sahaba being idol worshipers so Ibn Taymiyyah brought two opinions as to how Islam may have released Ali from kufr and not to prove that Ali was a kaffir but to shatter Al-Hilee's allegations. This was a response to Al-Hilee's argument that first three caliph were idol worshippers before their conversion and Ali ra was Muwahhid from his childhood. He just applied two fiqh opinions on Ali's conversion for the sake of answering Rafidhi, not necessarily it was his own opinion. When u refute someone u argue by challenging the beliefs of your counterpart in contrast with the allegations made by him.
وعلي رضي الله عنه كان قصده أن يتزوج عليها فله في أذاها غرض
“Ali intended to marry so as to hurt her (Fatima) on purpose.”
In this statement he is again answering a Shia who said that Abu Bakr had angered Fatima and hurt the prophet. In this he is refuting the claims by saying that When Abu Bakr was the reason of Fatima's anger, then Abu Bakr did not had any intention to do something for his own sake. All he was doing is to save the money for poor and needy. But when Ali was the reason for Fatima's anger then Ali had his own requirement or need. He was not marrying for someone else, wal 'iyadh bilAllah, unlike Abu Bakr who was doing that for the sake of poor and needy and was just following Prophet's command. Now the argument was If if if Abu Bakr became Kaffir by hurting Prophet's daughter (hence hurting the Prophet), then what about the fact that Ali also hurt her having the fact that Abu Bakr's intention was to take care of poor and to implement Prophet's command on the other hand Ali's intention was to marry so as to fulfill his own need. When u refute someone you argue by challenging the beliefs of your counterpart in contrast with the allegations made by him. I can show you narrations of Fatima being hurt from shia books because most of them deny Fatima being hurt by Ali.
6 - The ayah '
To you your religion and to me mine' is to be meant for the non believers. We do not have a separate religion. You are free to keep your point and no one will argue until and unless they are from reliable sources and you try to understand the issue with an unbiased mind. Stop stereotyping the saudis, It is more easy for them to stereotype us Pakistanis as well but it will be not be of any good. We are bigger terrorists than them given the last 15 years of our wars within the country. Your personal beliefs are the reason you become extremist not being a saudi. We should follow the great example of Imam Ahmed ibn al Hanbal when dealing with our rulers than resorting to terrorism and causing more harm to the innocent citizens and their properties than the ruler.
oh my God, still not answering my question. Prove it that it's shirk. And why putting glass over maqam e ibrahim is not shirk or putting gold ladden cloth over kabaa is not ? I am asking you prove it is shirk and you are telling me that Rasool SAW touched one part only. Nabi SAW didn't put glass on maqaam e ibrahim too, so call that act shirk too and also raising tall buildings. Your crow cannot be white
