What's new

Rise of Islam in Bengal, role of migration

Just for the record, Bengali's especially from Bangladesh are one of the most mixed ethnic groups in the continent owing to our geography with Mongoloid people towards our east, Turkic rule etc. In my family some of the cousins are Blue eyed, Brown/light brown hair whilst some of the others have a more radiant oriental skin colour yet still sharp features. My Mothers side, my cousins all look like Japanese to the untrained eye, but I know they just look like blatant Manipuris.

Truth is and from personal experience, Indians and Pakistanis don't have a clue what a BDeshi looks like. Case closed.
 
.
The single biggest difficulty that reading her work poses is her association with the old school of thought, which supposedly said that there was an 'Aryan' invasion of India. Actually, that was not fully her view; currently, she appears to believe that there was immigration, but in small groups, not in broad sweeping masses, and that there was a cultural appropriation of the discourse between the immigrants and those already in the country by the immigrants.

This may, in fact, be rather close to the correct interpretation, based on facts as they are known today.

The trouble is that Thapar is thought to be the main, or one of the main opponents of the Hindutva school of revisionist history (actually, I'm being unfair; there are more facets of ultra-right wing history than just Hindutva). Anything she does will grate on the nerves of those professionally bound to that school of ultra-right historians.

My suggestion: ignore calls to do this, that or the other, and have an independent opinion.

Why some pak members and some others spewing racism against Hindus?
A guy where you gave a negative rating is spitting worst racism by starting 'Aside Rajputs'
Well it seems all these guys are so much prejudiced about Hindus and India.
Perhaps they dont know about Hindus or they couldnt se the Hindus
 
.
So you'll determine who will stay out of discussions? though I don't see you having such privileges. And troll fests, well they more appropriately go with your fellow countrymen who have been derailing each and every thread in this section, just like what you have manifested right now, accusing someone of bad language and ill-tempered interventions without any evidence. Why don't you guys just leave when you don't have anything constructive to discuss, I'm pretty sure you have better things to do in your life than trolling here.

It was a suggestion. It is up to you to accept it or not.

As for troll fests going with my fellow countrymen, we are talking about you, not about every other poster guilty of whatever you are supposed to be doing.

You don't find the bit below evidence of bad language and ill-tempered intervention?

So you are presenting the British Raj bullshits as facts?

Finally, I have contributed far more to the discussion, in a constructive way, than anyone else, as you would have known if you had not just parachuted in. Almost to the point that I have more posts on the topic than you have in total.

Just for the record, Bengali's especially from Bangladesh are one of the most mixed ethnic groups in the continent owing to our geography with Mongoloid people towards our east, Turkic rule etc. In my family some of the cousins are Blue eyed, Brown/light brown hair whilst some of the others have a more radiant oriental skin colour yet still sharp features. My Mothers side, my cousins all look like Japanese to the untrained eye, but I know they just look like blatant Manipuris.

Truth is and from personal experience, Indians and Pakistanis don't have a clue what a BDeshi looks like. Case closed.

Don't be stupid, and don't jump to conclusions. I am of Bangladeshi stock on both sides, Dhaka and Barisal respectively. We could do with a little more logic and a little less excessive emotionalism.

Why some pak members and some others spewing racism against Hindus?
A guy where you gave a negative rating is spitting worst racism by starting 'Aside Rajputs'
Well it seems all these guys are so much prejudiced about Hindus and India.
Perhaps they dont know about Hindus or they couldnt se the Hindus

Please look up the forum rules.

If you see anyone breaking the rules, it is then the responsibility of our administrators and moderators to correct him, not individual members. I can't do anything about any- and everybody who makes a mistake.
 
Last edited:
.
Just for the record, Bengali's especially from Bangladesh are one of the most mixed ethnic groups in the continent owing to our geography with Mongoloid people towards our east, Turkic rule etc. In my family some of the cousins are Blue eyed, Brown/light brown hair whilst some of the others have a more radiant oriental skin colour yet still sharp features. My Mothers side, my cousins all look like Japanese to the untrained eye, but I know they just look like blatant Manipuris.

Truth is and from personal experience, Indians and Pakistanis don't have a clue what a BDeshi looks like. Case closed.

True, I also find similar contrasting physical appearances in my family. But the fact is we don't have to prove these things just to reply to some lowlifes who try to get rid of their real life frustrations by making those racial remarks here.

I would request the admins to close this thread before it becomes from worse to worst.
 
.
Just for the record, Bengali's especially from Bangladesh are one of the most mixed ethnic groups in the continent owing to our geography with Mongoloid people towards our east, Turkic rule etc. In my family some of the cousins are Blue eyed, Brown/light brown hair whilst some of the others have a more radiant oriental skin colour yet still sharp features. My Mothers side, my cousins all look like Japanese to the untrained eye, but I know they just look like blatant Manipuris.

Truth is and from personal experience, Indians and Pakistanis don't have a clue what a BDeshi looks like. Case closed.

Always had the feeling there must be some BDeshi with blue eyes, somewhere! We have red eyed people too - look at my eyes! :)
 
. .
What happened in Bengal was related to contemporary world events. I try to cover some of these events in these threads:
Nomad vs Sedentary and spread of Islam
Turks, Mongols and a Persian Secretarial Class in Early Delhi Sultanate

Birth of Muhammad (SAWS) and Chinggis Khaan unleashed forces that shaped much of the world and also in a remote corner of South Asia, far away from Mecca and Mongolia, resulted in events that eventually led to the creation of Bangladesh.

After death of Muhammad (SAWS) in 7th century, Arab nomads from Arabian peninsula conquered two major settled civilizations/empires, Byzantine in the North West (present Jordan, Syria, Lebanon), Byzantine North Africa in the West, Roman West Europe (Spain, parts of Italy etc.) and Sassanian Iran to the North East. Arab Khilafa then started recruiting another group of nomadic warriors, Turkic people from the Central Asian steppes and employ them as slave soldiers (Mamluks). Mamluks eventually started taking over many of these Islamic empires and created new ones such as Delhi Sultanate, Bengal Sultanate etc. But these nomads had no settled civilization skills of their own so they started using the existing culture, language and bureaucratic organizational skills of these conquered settled civilizations. Sassanian in the East, and Byzantine and Roman in the West.

Around 1200 AD, Chinggis Khaan united tribes in Gobi desert and surrounding steppe areas, declares himself Khan of Khans of all nomadic felt tent people (nomads living in yurt/ger from Manchu steppes North of Korean peninsula to Hungarian steppes in east Europe) and started taking over settled and nomad empires one by one. First China, then Central Asia and Iran and then Russia. In two places they lose, one in battle of Ain Jalut near present day Palestine against Mamluks and converted Mongols from the Russian Khanate and the 2nd against Delhi Sultanate, which became a refuge for Muslim Turkic people from Central Asia and who were able to lure and recruit many Mongols in their ranks as well.

Soon the Mongol Khanates started falling within a century, the first to fall was Chagatai and it was taken over by the son-in-law (Gurkani) empire of Emir Timur. He unites Central Asian Chagatai Khanate, Russian Altyn Orda or Golden Hordes and Il-khanid Iran. He sacks Osmanli in Anatolia and Delhi Sultanate. After fall of Yuan Mongol rule of China at the hand of Ming, Timur was on his way to attack Ming China to restore Mongol Yuan, but died on the way near Syr Daria in present day Kazakhstan. After the Khanates the Timurid empire also faded away giving rise to other empires. Babur one of the last Timurid prince got ousted from his state in Ferghana valley and tried his fortune in South Asia and succeeds. So finally Yassa makes it way into South Asia and makes profound changes in one of its fringe frontier called Bangalah (Bengal).

Yassa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
  1. He [Chingis-Khan] ordered that all religions were to be respected and that no preference was to be shown to any of them. All this he commanded in order that it might be agreeable to Heaven. {al-Makrizi}
  2. Leaders of a religion, lawyers, physicians, scholars, preachers, monks, persons who are dedicated to religious practice, the Muezzin (this latter appearing to be from the later period of Khubilai Khan unless this was further translated there had been no specific reference made to any Muezzin and cities including mosques were levelled), physicians and those who bathe the bodies of the dead are to be freed from public charges. {Al-Makrizi}
Verkhovensky reports that the Yassa begins with an exhortation to honor men of all nations based upon their virtues. This pragmatic admonition is borne out by the ethnic mixture created by Genghis Khan in the Mongolian medieval army for purpose of unity (Ezent Gueligen Mongolyn), the United Mongol Warriors. The origin of the word Mongol, "mong", means "brave". Thus at the time it may have meant as much an army of "the brave", as an army from or made up of people from Mongolia.
  • Genghis Khan consulted teachers of religions, such as imáms and probably rabbis and Christian priests, in compiling his law codex.
Chingiz Khan: The Life and Legacy of an Empire Builder - Anwarul Haque Haqqi - Google Books
Medieval India: From Sultanat to the Mughals Part - II - Satish Chandra - Google Books

Indegenization process: Fortune seeking warriors come to a new area in military campaigns, most often do not bring their wife. So they marry from local chieftains families to create first Muslim Ashraf. Subsequent warrior migrants who come to settle down, most probably marry from this existing pool of Ashraf families. When Ashraf fall to poverty, the rich converts can absorb them into their own family to gain Ashraf blood, which is treasured and rare commodity. Overtime population becomes more homogeneous, but just like South America, there remains a few percentage unmixed Ashraf (mixed themselves but not after the first settlement move), rest 40-70% are Mestizo with varying degree of foreign blood and then there are 50-20% unmixed natives (the percentages are wild guesses on my part, without a comprehensive genetic test of a broad cross section of people from various strata, it is premature to make conjectures, but I use this only as a speculative example).

Islam came to Bengal in 3 waves. First was through the coastal areas by Arab maritime traders. 2nd was the Turkic invasions that created Delhi Sultanate and Bengal Sultanate soon after. Turkic Bengal Sultanate spread Muslim rule to distant eastern hinterland of Bengal, but Muslim settlements remained limited to urban garrison towns and mint towns. The 3rd final push came after Mughal conquest of Bengal, that transformed the rural “Bhati” areas of eastern Bengal, with a mega project of clear cutting of forested land and creating mostly Muslim communities geared towards Wet Rice Cultivation. This way Bengal could become the granary and cash generator of Mughal empire, that would then finance imperial expansion in other parts of South Asia.

I would like to thank Richard M. Eaton for making available online the book he wrote on this subject:

The Rise of Islam and the Bengal Frontier, 1204–1760
Richard Eaton | The Department of History

I will present material mostly from this book that will shed light on the topic mentioned in the title.

Can anyone explain this Ashraf thing in detail? This concept is alien to punjabi muslims who are indigenous converts. So i don't know why Indians with their pseudo history drag punjabis in it.
 
.
It was a suggestion. It is up to you to accept it or not.

As for troll fests going with my fellow countrymen, we are talking about you, not about every other poster guilty of whatever you are supposed to be doing.

You don't find the bit below evidence of bad language and ill-tempered intervention?



Finally, I have contributed far more to the discussion, in a constructive way, than anyone else, as you would have known if you had not just parachuted in. Almost to the point that I have more posts on the topic than you have in total.



Don't be stupid, and don't jump to conclusions. I am of Bangladeshi stock on both sides, Dhaka and Barisal respectively. We could do with a little more logic and a little less excessive emotionalism.



Please look up the forum rules.

If you see anyone breaking the rules, it is then the responsibility of our administrators and moderators to correct him, not individual members. I can't do anything about any- and everybody who makes a mistake.

I always reported such posts.But no use.
These people who spits such BS have ostrich mentality.They cant recognize anything that good in India.
 
. . .
Ok

"In some parts of South Asia, the Muslims are divided as Ashrafs and Ajlafs.[14] Ashrafs claim a superior status derived from their foreign ancestry.[15]"

That shit is alien to Punjabi muslims. Seem like its India only thing.

I am not familiar with Punjab, but I know it was true in Bengal at earlier points in history, but it is no longer true in current Bangladesh society as any real basis of any kind of caste as most foreign origin Muslim families have thoroughly mixed with local origin converted Muslims.
 
.
@Joe Shearer sorry that you feel I am being partisan, but you are entitled to your opinion. My posts are my own opinion of course, I never claimed otherwise. But the material I am presenting here are verified sources. So you can draw your own conclusions and are entitled to have your opinions, but you should allow the readers here to read the materials I am presenting and draw their own conclusions.

It sounds to me like you do not want me to present materials and verified sources to make an argument that goes against your understanding of history of medieval Bengal, isn't that essentially what you are saying?

As for Radcliffe awards, those are also my opinions and these opinions are based on some Indian sources the links of which I provided in the post.
 
.
@Joe Shearer sorry that you feel I am being partisan, but you are entitled to your opinion. My posts are my own opinion of course, I never claimed otherwise. But the material I am presenting here are verified sources. So you can draw your own conclusions and are entitled to have your opinions, but you should allow the readers here to read the materials I am presenting and draw their own conclusions.

It sounds to me like you do not want me to present materials and verified sources to make an argument that goes against your understanding of history of medieval Bengal, isn't that essentially what you are saying?

As for Radcliffe awards, those are also my opinions and these opinions are based on some Indian sources the links of which I provided in the post.

@kalu_miah , of course I feel you are being partisan, otherwise we would not be arguing, we would be in full agreement. And it is my opinion against yours, against the background of excellent sources that you have brought to everyone's attention, for which you have earned everyone's appreciation.

Let us be clear. I do want you to present materials and verified sources, and have always appreciated it, and in public. How do you come to the preposterous conclusion that I do not want you to present these materials and sources? On the other hand, the conclusions that you draw from them are pretty baseless, and I have pointed that out, which I believe is my right, just as it is your right to present your conclusions. So what is the problem? Let people decide, and to help them decide, I have been highlighting the sources provided by you yourself to indicate where you contradict what you have posted as evidence.

The Radcliffe Awards again are your opinion against mine.

Are you trying to say that only you are entitled to your opinion?
 
.
@kalu_miah , of course I feel you are being partisan, otherwise we would not be arguing, we would be in full agreement. And it is my opinion against yours, against the background of excellent sources that you have brought to everyone's attention, for which you have earned everyone's appreciation.

Let us be clear. I do want you to present materials and verified sources, and have always appreciated it, and in public. How do you come to the preposterous conclusion that I do not want you to present these materials and sources? On the other hand, the conclusions that you draw from them are pretty baseless, and I have pointed that out, which I believe is my right, just as it is your right to present your conclusions. So what is the problem? Let people decide, and to help them decide, I have been highlighting the sources provided by you yourself to indicate where you contradict what you have posted as evidence.

The Radcliffe Awards again are your opinion against mine.

Are you trying to say that only you are entitled to your opinion?

I have already said in my previous post, that you are entitled to your opinion, I will not call them preposterous or baseless, just simply wrong according to the material I have presented so far and will continue to present. And people can read English and make up their own mind to decide which one is the correct view based on these verified sources. You are welcome to present any counter argument with cited credible source materials, not just your conjectures.
 
.
That Bengalis are predominantly descendants from foreign Muslim invaders like Arabs, Afghans, Persians or Turks is a stupid myth which was disproven by every genetic test which were done on Bengalis. Bengalis are genetically Muslim converted Dalits and they cluster neither with Arabs nor with Afghans or Turks, Persians... In genetical tests
 
.

Pakistan Defence Latest Posts

Country Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom