Rise of Islam in Bengal, role of migration

[Joe Shearer]

The greater Rangpur Division has always been a center of flourishing trade route since antiquity. It was also a major part of the South west silk route. There was an ancient fort city named Bhitagarh which served as a major transit point between Tibet and India.

It can be said that the Muslim traders arrived in the area from China, either for trade or in search of Chittagong which was the main gate way of Bengal. Moreover, Al Jazeera has some reputation and it will not report on some flawed archaeological discovery like you are saying.

You definitely are a genius.

When did Islam get to China? What Muslim traders did you expect, from China, either for trade, or in search of Chittagong? Do you realise what lay between China and Islam at that time?

Al Jazeera does not have a reputation for either historical or for archaeological scholarship, the last time I looked. Perhaps you are confused about what a news channel does. It looks for news, sensational news. Does that help to understand what they are likely to say about a possible story of this sort?

 

[Cold Blood]

You definitely are a genius.

When did Islam get to China? What Muslim traders did you expect, from China, either for trade, or in search of Chittagong? Do you realise what lay between China and Islam at that time?

Al Jazeera does not have a reputation for either historical or for archaeological scholarship, the last time I looked. Perhaps you are confused about what a news channel does. It looks for news, sensational news. Does that help to understand what they are likely to say about a possible story of this sort?

Don't be a noob, I said Arab Muslim traders arrived in Rangpur through China. You know very well about the silk route. Arab traders had been traveling through China for centuries, if not millenniums. The Southwest silk route follows the course of Brahmaputra. Brahmaputra flows through Rangpur division as Jamuna, before meeting with Ganges/Padma near Rajshahi and later with Meghna and eventually falls into Bay of Bengal near Noahkhali. Noahkhali is also near to Chittagong which was a major sea port in maritime Silk route.

 

[eastwatch]

Why are we discussing these issues in such a hyper-excited state?

To correct a wholly irrelevant point first, I mentioned Chaghatai Turks, not those who led by a Khilji actually led the conquest of Bengal. But my post was sardonic, and not intended to mirror the exact truth of those events. Pity that you take it so seriously.

Those Turks formed a microscopic minority, and were not a significant number of the population. Your own sources say so.

Nobody denied the existence of their descendants among present day Bangla Muslims. Everybody scoffed at claims of their having formed any significant number, or any significant percentage of the population.

I shall address other points made by you later.

How did you deduce this conclusion that the Khaliji (I am not talking about Chaghtai) Turks from Gharmsher of eastern Afghanistan) were very very tiny in those days when I find in history books that there were at least 400,000 arrival during the first few months after Bengal was conquered by them. Before Bengal Bihar was already at their disposal. Most were dependents who were brought to a happy land where all those half-educated and otherwise poor Khalijis became the overlord.

You will get a good idea of the percentage of completely alien new arrivals with a new look and religion if you can almost correctly find out the probable number of local Hindu population in north Bihar and Bengal.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I might be wrong about Hindu social structure as I dont want to claim that I know better than a Hindu. But from outsiders point of view we were taught (by the Hindus ofcourse) that their main caste divides around Bhramin, Khatria, Baisha, Shudra (sorry if i spelled incorrectly).

Without being supercilious, or intending to sound so, if this is an example, then most Bengali Hindus seem to know far more about both Hindu and Muslim society than Bengali Muslims; most Bengali Muslims seem to be oblivious to the roots of Bangla society. There are honourable exceptions, of course, as we have learnt from this very thread.

Bhramin and Khatrias are well defined and we know who the are and even some of the those upper caste people still bear their titles (eg. Thagore etc) after conversion. Now the real question about the people who actually consisted the biggest mass are Baisa and they are the peasant/kamar/kumar/napit/fishermen right? (PS: I am not sure whether those craftsmen are considered as Shudra or not).

In one word?

Wrong.

Now what you are arguing that there are sub classes among Baisa, eg. even in peasant class there are somebody with little upper caste and somebody with little lower caste. I even saw people distinguishing between Das and Dash. But my question is whether these sub classes were segregated enough to force one class to get converted to a alien religion like Islam?

I think Eaton has said enough on the subject, in terms of Social Liberation.

The second question is the Buddhist, as they were never a Shudra, how far low they were thrown into (whether they were considered as low as Shudra) so that they had to leave their religion all together? What was the profession of the majority Buddhist? Are they predominantly peasant? As hindu caste system revolves around the profession, so I suppose they were not considered anything below Baisa?

Buddhists were drawn from all sections of the population, and at the beginning, in 600 BC, in close-by parts of north India, they were seen as a revolt by Kshatriya princes against the deadening weight of the Brahmins. So, too, the Jain movement; here, too, the most prominent, latest Tirthankara, Mahavira, was a Kshatriya prince. But that apart, as a religious movement, both spread to all sections of the population.

There is an untested possibility that it was the Jains, rather than Puranic Hindus, who 'Aryanised', or 'Sanskritised' Bengal and parts East.

You are right about Pasmanda movement is a indian movement but E. Bengal is a muslim majority region and certainly different than the other region of India. May be Muslim in this region had different slogan that that of Bihar. Dont you think out of nowhere Bengal got so many Muslim, that must have a reason and which is quite different than others.

The point was that the Pasmanda claimed that there was as much oppression of the Ajlaf by the Ashraf as there was oppression of the Dalit by the Savarna. It must be true of all communities of Muslims of mixed descent from migrants and from native converts. I agree that the situation of Bengal with regard to aggregation is unique, but why does that invalidate the cross-sectional analysis?

 

[Joe Shearer]

Don't be a noob, I said Arab Muslim traders arrived in Rangpur through China. You know very well about the silk route. Arab traders had been traveling through China for centuries, if not millenniums. The Southwest silk route follows the course of Brahmaputra. Brahmaputra flows through Rangpur division as Jamuna, before meeting with Ganges/Padma near Rajshahi and later with Meghna and eventually falls into Bay of Bengal near Noahkhali. Noahkhali is also near to Chittagong which was a major sea port in maritime Silk route.

Being a noob is one thing, being an ignoramus is another.

If you have not been following the conversation, try to pay attention now.

The Brahmaputra-Ganges confluence was not a major effluent of the Ganges; it was the minor one. It was not big enough or deep enough to encourage exploitation of the dense forest in which the entire Samatata and Jessore areas, southern Varendra, to stretch a point, were covered.

I certainly agree that there was traffic in goods from south China through the Brahmaputra valley through to the main Silk Road which traversed Persia, Khurasan, later, the Khwarezm Shahi, through the Turkish march lands into China, and that this traffic existed before Khurasan did, or the Khwarezm Shahi, or any ethnicity called the Turks, as far back as the days when the population of those tracts were Scythian, Pahlavi and Kushan. But if you had any information or knowledge about trans-Himalayan commerce, you would have known that it took place as a series of hand-offs, through various tribes arranged paralle to the watershed of the Himalayas. Nobody made an end-to-end trip at that end; it was a system of goods passed on from one tribe to another, in exchange for other goods moving in the reverse direction.

Such trade was seen and documented in the Arunachal area, and also, as you should know, in the Chakma tracts, and perhaps still is. So goods from the Brahmaputra valley reach deep into the hills where the Chakmas live, without paying tolls, tributes or taxes on the way, and in the same tribe-to-tribe way.

You might like to re-think your justification in the light of these facts.

How did you deduce this conclusion that the Khaliji (I am not talking about Chaghtai) Turks from Gharmsher of eastern Afghanistan) were very very tiny in those days when I find in history books that there were at least 400,000 arrival during the first few months after Bengal was conquered by them. Before Bengal Bihar was already at their disposal. Most were dependents who were brought to a happy land where all those half-educated and otherwise poor Khalijis became the overlord.

You will get a good idea of the percentage of completely alien new arrivals with a new look and religion if you can almost correctly find out the probable number of local Hindu population in north Bihar and Bengal.

Evidently you haven't read Eaton. I suggest you re-read it, or read it for the first time if you have not already done it. @kalu_miah actually has done a brilliant job of reproduction of relevant sources. Perhaps his strength is not in evaluation and explanation.

I wonder which of these were converts, in the main, and which of these were excluded, according to the weird theories that I have seen being put forward:

Sl NoName of the CastesSl NoName of the Castes
1.Bagdi, Duley30.Karenga, Koranga
2.Bahelia31.Kaur
3.Baiti32.Keot, Keyot
4.Bantar33.Khaira
5.Bauri34.Khatik
6.Beldar35.Koch
7.Bogta36.Konai
8.Buimali37.Konwar
9.Bhuiya38.Kotal
10.Bind39.Kurarior
11.Chamar,
Charmakar,
Mochi,
Muchi,
Rabidas,
Ruidas,
Rishi40.Lalbegi
12.Chaupal41.Lohar
13.Dabgar42.Mahar
14.Damai (Nepali)43.Mal
15.Dhoba, Dhobi44.Mallah
16.Doai45.Musahar
17.Dom, Dhangad46.Namasudra
18.Dosadh, Dusadh, Dhari,Dharhi47.Nat
19.Ghasi48.Nuniya
20.Gonrhi49.Paliya
21.Halalkhor50.Pan,Sawasi
22.Hari, Mehtar, Methar, Bhangi51.Pasi
23.Jalia Kalibarta52.Patni
24.Jhalo Malo, Malo53.Pod,Poundra
25.Kadar54.Rajbanshi
26.Kami( Nepali)55.Rajwar
27.Kandra56.Sarki(Nepali)
28.Kanjar57.Sunri (Excluding Saha)
29.Kaora58.tiyar
59.Turi

 

[Cold Blood]

Being a noob is one thing, being an ignoramus is another.

If you have not been following the conversation, try to pay attention now.

The Brahmaputra-Ganges confluence was not a major effluent of the Ganges; it was the minor one. It was not big enough or deep enough to encourage exploitation of the dense forest in which the entire Samatata and Jessore areas, southern Varendra, to stretch a point, were covered.

I certainly agree that there was traffic in goods from south China through the Brahmaputra valley through to the main Silk Road which traversed Persia, Khurasan, later, the Khwarezm Shahi, through the Turkish march lands into China, and that this traffic existed before Khurasan did, or the Khwarezm Shahi, or any ethnicity called the Turks, as far back as the days when the population of those tracts were Scythian, Pahlavi and Kushan. But if you had any information or knowledge about trans-Himalayan commerce, you would have known that it took place as a series of hand-offs, through various tribes arranged paralle to the watershed of the Himalayas. Nobody made an end-to-end trip at that end; it was a system of goods passed on from one tribe to another, in exchange for other goods moving in the reverse direction.

Such trade was seen and documented in the Arunachal area, and also, as you should know, in the Chakma tracts, and perhaps still is. So goods from the Brahmaputra valley reach deep into the hills where the Chakmas live, without paying tolls, tributes or taxes on the way, and in the same tribe-to-tribe way.

You might like to re-think your justification in the light of these facts.

Tribe to tribe? The Arabs, Persians and Turks visited China as far as Manchuria for pearl and gemstone trade. Yes, the tribe to tribe trade had been made in Arunachal and Chakma Tracts but that's because of the inaccessibility of those areas, lack of roads, communication system etc. We are talking about silk route, a major trade route. Trade routes also serve as means of migration of people and transfer of cultures. Rangpur, being part of this route, also witnessed this migration and transfer of culture.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Yes, tribe to tribe. Yes, Arunachal and Chakma Hills.

The routes you are talking about were the routes through Central Asia. Do you think I don't know about them? There was no major trade in the south, not the way there was in the north. And you keep forgetting that the geography then was different from the geography now.

 

[SrNair]

@Joe Shearer sir Can we connect South Indians and bengalis on the basis of migration or genetics?

 

[Cold Blood]

Yes, tribe to tribe. Yes, Arunachal and Chakma Hills.

The routes you are talking about were the routes through Central Asia. Do you think I don't know about them? There was no major trade in the south, not the way there was in the north. And you keep forgetting that the geography then was different from the geography now.

Central Asia? Silk route was throughout Eastern Europe to East Asia. You are forgetting about Southwest silk road which went through Tibbet, Rangpur, Dhaka, Chittagong into Burma. I know geography was different from its current form, I'm talking from archaeological evidences.

 

[Saiful Islam]

Why, what happened?

Ran out of arguments?

No, not because of arguments. It's easy to pick an argument here, rest assured that's not what I wanted. I'm interested in genealogy, culture etc. The thread is repeating the same thing over and over again. Have a lassi, or soft drink (Pepsi, Coke or maybe even Cow ....I mean Paani peelo na?

 

[TopCat]

@Joe Shearer sir Can we connect South Indians and bengalis on the basis of migration or genetics?

Yes there were massive migration from Deccan under Sena Dynasty. There were also migration during Palas's. But before that migration was mostly from west to east when Aryanisation ocuured.

 

[Charon 2]

How did you deduce this conclusion that the Khaliji (I am not talking about Chaghtai) Turks from Gharmsher of eastern Afghanistan) were very very tiny in those days when I find in history books that there were at least 400,000 arrival during the first few months after Bengal was conquered by them. Before Bengal Bihar was already at their disposal. Most were dependents who were brought to a happy land where all those half-educated and otherwise poor Khalijis became the overlord.

You will get a good idea of the percentage of completely alien new arrivals with a new look and religion if you can almost correctly find out the probable number of local Hindu population in north Bihar and Bengal.

The Khiljis were mostly assimilated into modern Pashtuns and not into Bengalis. Beides that they were never a pure Turk tribe but rather mixed with Pashtun tribes since the beginning. They were also treated like that by other Turks.

 

[Saiful Islam]

Why Bangladeshis in west don't take out genetic test? It only cost 99$ Otherwise there is no point in believing theories. Especially when alternatives exist like simple genetic test.

Because Bangladesh in the west do not give a flying f-ck if we are descendants of this or that, nor are most of them knowledgeable about genealogy. Tribe/Caste system doesn't come into play much in the everyday life of a BDeshi, except sometimes you may hear the word "Sayyidor bongsho", meaning family of Sayyid, or Choudury zaat, meaning the Choudry type. There are more, way more, but they are never spoken of being irrelevant in Bangladeshi life. I assure you in real life we do not say we are foreign this, or foreign that. All that we know is that our awliya was Hazrat Shahjalal and his 360 companions.

But when the Indians said that Bangladeshis share genetics mostly with South Indians I started laughing, I mean, it's not necessarily a bad thing, but who the hell are they to say my race is this, do they know better, or me?

 

[guru1]

But when the Indians said that Bangladeshis share genetics mostly with South Indians I started laughing, I mean, it's not necessarily a bad thing, but who the hell are they to say my race is this, do they know better, or me?

no one is saying bangladeshi share genetics with south india we are just saying mostly bangladeshi are dalit converts and no one can denay that .

 

[Saiful Islam]

no one is saying bangladeshi share genetics with south india we are just saying mostly bangladeshi are dalit converts and no one can denay that .

No one knows what a Dalit is in Bangladesh, nor do we know what a Pasmanda Muslim is. Someone's been spreading rumours, I suggest you read a good book. We call Pomegranate in Bangla, Dalim, but that's about it lmao.

If the Muslims of Bengal, especially Bangladesh, were Dalit converts, I assure you we would know about it.